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If I'm roleplaying both characters, a summon and a henchman, how would you expect me to play in real time?

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I'm suprised that so many of you are worried that the turn based fights of Original Sin are going to distract from the immersion. Have you played games like Fallout 1-2, Arcanum, etc? Or any roguelike like Angband or NetHack, games that don't even have graphics but still are among the most intense experiences you can have in gaming!
Originally Posted by Raze
50% of your time with BG will be micromanamgent of your party.

So I should have checked the manual to find out the default settings could be configured to drop the micromanagement all the way down to 50%? Gee, if I had know i could get it that low I would have bought it at full price rather than wait for a GOG D&D promo sale. suspicion

The combat in PS:T wasn't great, but it didn't require any micromanagement (only the occasional tough fight required characters being directed individually).
So true! If you play a good party in Baldur's Gate 2, it is very likely that the vampiers of Amn become your enemies. That means that you can't go out and buy a bottle of milk in Amn without being attacked by a bunch of vampires, and they make very short work of your heroes unless they have "Protection from Undead". Also, the vampires are immune to normal weapons. That means that your archers and slingers have to switch to +2 shots/arrows everytime they take a walk in Amn, and that you group your heroes together to cast the Protection spell on them all at once. The spell lasts for an inconveniently short time too, so you'll have to do this pretty often. If you don't have mapped a lot of Protection from Undead castings on your casters, you also have to go to sleep a lot to regain the spells you've used up. That's just how Baldur's Gate 2 is.

Many people are prepared to get used to the constant micro tediousness because of the memorable characters and story, but I was never able to do it myself. I almost finished Baldur 1 with my then girlfriend as she was a major fan and controlled 4 of the 6 characters over LAN, leaving me to do the dialogues and control the rangers. That was pretty fun. But really, the micromanagement is hell.

Planescape: Torment has an even better story, maybe the best ever told in a computer game, and while it demands the same type of party control, it differs in several important aspects. First of all, enemies hardly ever deal status effects like paralysation or posion and seldom requires advanced weapaons to hurt. It does happen that you get the "weapon ineffective" message from time to time, but generally you have the weapons you need and archers. As there is only one archer in the game you don't have to switch back and froth arrows depending on who you face either. Also, the battles are much less frequent and finally it doesn't even matter if you die. Your companions dying might be a little inconvenient but you can resurrect them much more easily than in Baldur.

By the way, does anybody here like Icewind Dale or Icewind Dale 2? I've heard that they are like Baldur, only with less story and more focus on combat and tactics? Is this any fun? Or maybe the lack of a story like that of Baldur makes the tactics bearable; could it be possible to enjoy the fighting when they aren't keeping you from unfolding a great tale?

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Personally I miss the turn based combat, it allowed for far more strategy as you actually had time to plan attacks. I always wondered how turn based combat seemingly disappeared over night. I suppose when one game did it well everyone else just decided to jump on the band wagon.

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Originally Posted by Nemesis1
If you play a good party in Baldur's Gate 2, it is very likely that the vampiers of Amn become your enemies. That means that you can't go out and buy a bottle of milk in Amn without being attacked by a bunch of vampires, and they make very short work of your heroes unless they have "Protection from Undead". Also, the vampires are immune to normal weapons. That means that your archers and slingers have to switch to +2 shots/arrows everytime they take a walk in Amn, and that you group your heroes together to cast the Protection spell on them all at once. The spell lasts for an inconveniently short time too, so you'll have to do this pretty often. If you don't have mapped a lot of Protection from Undead castings on your casters, you also have to go to sleep a lot to regain the spells you've used up. That's just how Baldur's Gate 2 is.

Thanks for warning me. wink

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Originally Posted by Helena L
Originally Posted by Nemesis1
If you play a good party in Baldur's Gate 2, it is very likely that the vampiers of Amn become your enemies. That means that you can't go out and buy a bottle of milk in Amn without being attacked by a bunch of vampires, and they make very short work of your heroes unless they have "Protection from Undead". Also, the vampires are immune to normal weapons. That means that your archers and slingers have to switch to +2 shots/arrows everytime they take a walk in Amn, and that you group your heroes together to cast the Protection spell on them all at once. The spell lasts for an inconveniently short time too, so you'll have to do this pretty often. If you don't have mapped a lot of Protection from Undead castings on your casters, you also have to go to sleep a lot to regain the spells you've used up. That's just how Baldur's Gate 2 is.

Thanks for warning me. wink


He is exaggerating though. Just putting a few copies of that spell in your spellbook along with restoration deals with vampires (and other undead, Ghouls do this too iirc) just fine and if you play your cards right you shouldn't even be needing the latter all that often (or if it bothers you: get a wand with the appropriate spell assuming they exist, I dunno): your fighters should be taking most (preferably all) of those hits. It's generally fairly obvious when you'll run into undead too, just prepare accordingly.

Note also that vampires only become "common" after a certain part in the story and if you still have trouble dealing with them by then you're in for a real treat later...(hint: buy the Shield of Balduran from the bonus merchant in the shop on Waukeen's Promenade. You can thank me later.)

Not that there aren't many plain annoying enemies or mechanics in the game, but I wouldn't consider Vampires among the worst, sure their ability is a pain if you're badly prepared, but it's easy enough to deal with as they just drain strength. Now Mind Flayers (HAI! I drained ur int, now u can fill in ur spellbook again! Heehee!) and Elder Orbs (well basically everything that casts Imprisonment or any other spell that *removes* someone from your party)

Ofc if you are low on "healers" it might be more annoying to deal with Vampires, my favourite party for the first part of the game was: me (wizard), Minsc (and Boo), Jaheira, Viconia, Korgan and Yoshimo.

Last edited by theBlackDragon; 27/05/13 07:20 PM.

* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Micromanagement in BG2 is not hell, it's heaven.... It means full control because you can decide WHEN you want to take over control. In turn-based combat you are forced to take over control every round, there is no "automated" fighting option. That's the immersion breaker (and yes, it's the same thing with Fallout 1+2 and Arcanum).

And vampires are not that hard in BG2. Mind flayers and beholders are much worse, not to speak about liches like Kangaxx or dragons. But yes, combat in BG2 can be hard, especially if you are not well prepared. And being well prepared means that you have to rest often and that you have to buy stuff which neutralizes your weaknesses. That's just a part of the gameplay.

Btw my archer(s) always carry at least arrows +1 or +2, only changing to normal arrows when fighting against very weak enemies. But there is simply no point of not equipping them with good arrows. And having magicial weapons in your inventory for certain enemies is just part of the preparation for battle....

Last edited by LordCrash; 27/05/13 09:47 PM.

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The only reason I am interested in this game and have backed it is because of turn based tactical combat!

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Actually, it was the industry (oncemore) which declared one day turn-based combat obsolete, like they tried with decalring PC's and other things obsolete to push their interest (in this case real time fighting) or trying to monopolize a whole industry (by declaring an open game platform an outlaw).
Screw them, luckily there are always some which don't listen to such megalomaniac statements and things return from the dead smile


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Originally Posted by Nemesis1
By the way, does anybody here like Icewind Dale or Icewind Dale 2? I've heard that they are like Baldur, only with less story and more focus on combat and tactics? Is this any fun? Or maybe the lack of a story like that of Baldur makes the tactics bearable; could it be possible to enjoy the fighting when they aren't keeping you from unfolding a great tale?


The story does take a back seat in those games. The games are essentially a long series of fights, but the fights are good and they compensate for the lack of story with a great atmosphere.

I liked them, and I'd say they are at least worth playing through once.

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Originally Posted by Bearhug
Actually, it was the industry (oncemore) which declared one day turn-based combat obsolete, like they tried with decalring PC's and other things obsolete to push their interest (in this case real time fighting) or trying to monopolize a whole industry (by declaring an open game platform an outlaw).
Screw them, luckily there are always some which don't listen to such megalomaniac statements and things return from the dead smile


I'd say they tried to declare PCs obsolete because consoles are much easier to control, so they could destroy indie developers and squeeze customers for every penny they have to spend...


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Originally Posted by theBlackDragon
I'd say they tried to declare PCs obsolete because consoles are much easier to control, so they could destroy indie developers and squeeze customers for every penny they have to spend...


That's what I meant with 'pushing their interest'. Consoles are easier to use which means you reach a wider customer range which means more money. At the same time you attract more casual gamers to the now broader customer base which means you can (and have to) simplify things to make the majority (which is now the casual console gamers) happy which goes on costs of quality and variety which is fine for the producers as it means less money spend and less good for developers which want to make more a 'game for gamers' and not a 'game from producers which give a damn except for their shareholders;.
Besides watering down game content to more simple, sweatshop friendly formulas, did they also made the broader game audience more receptive to their dictate of release prices from 40 to 60 Dollars as the broader customer base are now more parents which just want to hush their spoiled, troll kids and don't care to wonder if the price might be appropiate for the new title.

Popular counter argument is of course that modern titles do need MUCH larger budgets to cover the costs which is just true to some degree. Because the arket gets flooded with quantity they spend quite a chunk of the budget in the PR department which helps to push those 'spearhead' titles to push their sales and turning the sheep (not weresheeps;) part of the casual gamers to bleat unisono which games are cool/desirable/hip etc. and which are not.
In return that shaped broad mass then works in favor of the big distributors to legitimate their decisions byusing their arguments and accepting their values, that only a title which cost damn much money and has a PR department like a political rally campaign can be good, etc.

Some words of reassurance...
Even those big sweatshop players will never disappear is there at least some points which are reassuring.
- One of the main reasons why and how they were able to attract so many new players aboard for years are graphics as vision is our main sense. Even graphics are overrated in importance, since the graphic craze started with Voodoo and ATI years ago were they the main selling point. Now were graphics reached a point were they all cook with water now again is the edge of graphic over everything alone becoming more dull and games need more then this one point to sell.
That's the time of indies getting back their share of the market by offering besides the mass ware fromthe big ones alternative products which can shine through innovation and/or combining known aspects in a new way.
More games again from gamers for gamers.
- New financing institutions like Kickstarter do help as well in that shifting process as the gamers as well can put to some degree their weight into the process of allowing smaller, independent companies to make their games they want and not bossed around from the big money bags of the corporations.

There will be of course ever some people naive enough to believe because they spend a few dozen to few hundred bucks they can and should have everything their way, but backing is not being a shareholder. This is more of a grassroot approach people. So less trolling and more constructive input as we should believe more in freedom of the artist(s) and not in sweatshops with input through whining or whipping.

Ok, that was a more detailed explination as I shortened in my former statement with the industry 'puhing their interest'.
But I think it was helpful to let that out even it was a biiit longer smile

Last edited by Bearhug; 13/06/13 07:07 PM.

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Hi everyone, my complain fits perfectly with the topic. So, I have two things to say :

I just succeeded (or maybe 2 Month ago, when I had time to play video games) to try Temple of elemental Evil, which is a game with tactical combats. This mechanism is just awesome (and the choices in this game are just demential). This kind of thing made me feel in the game and allowed stuff like being swallowed by an giant frog...

Ok, I loved to play DD 3.5 with friends, paper and pens, but anyway, to make it so real, it was just great...

BUT this joy stopped when I had to play against a snake as the animation were JUST TOO SLOW. Please, Larian, allow us to make fiends (and foes) move and attack quickly. I don't mind if a Zombie must be slow, because it's his nature, but one golden rule is to make it move fast enough to not have a too long time where the player wait.

Furthermore, if we could have effects (grabbing, swallowed, flying, hanging, whateverINg), it gonna be awesome (I know, I ask for more than I should, but hey, we trust you guys).


The second thing is how adaptative this turnbased mode is, as you can enter or not in it. If everything go smoothly, fast enough, there won't be any "time distortion" between the player in combat and the player out of it. This is very cool (I think)

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Great idea,
maybe a simple on/off feature or a speed slider for personal custom flavor for immersion can do the trick, in case the game system of someone is too slow by too much action at the same time on the screen.


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Too-slow animations is not a case where we need a slider. It's turn-based combat, it only needs one speed: "not a huge pain to sit through when there's a bunch of enemies around." What speed is that? I don't know, but after the Alpha and Beta, you can be sure Larian will.

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Even in a turn-based games does time pass in fights.
You have to try to see the big picture.
What is for one person too slow might be for another too fast.

The cause might be system performance, it might be lack of patience/time, others find too fast annoying when their fighters move like squirrels on speed over the screen, others might love it as they run on caffeine or sugar. Some might even not like the characters move around at all and just let the pc calculate the result even the result might be less splendid because the lack of tactics.
When you design with game mechanics you have to weigh options against eachother before you can narrow them down when things begin to fall after a while into place piece by piece.

I Larian will be able to find a solution for most problems in time. This is just about constructive feedback and not just some thumb up or down comment.


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Maybe so, but if Larian added toggles and sliders for everything that people have suggested toggles and sliders on (and I'm guilty of that as well), the "Options Menu" would be about twenty pages long.

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I find that the options are mostly important for performance tweaks and compatibility.
Preference related tweaks are not as important, as they are easier to live with/tolerate if the game balances said preferences nicely.


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Of course are performance tweaks are more important then anything.
Preferences are after all just preferences, some give a damn and others like them.

They could include in the menu a preference tab but they could not afford to not create an option tab in the menu as options are for performance tweaking, preferences are just personal taste and in most cases unlikely to influence much performance.
Most games I know don't have a preference tab. Is it necessary? Of course not. Would it be bad if it would exist? Not as long content in it can be ignored as some might even think they are guilty to express a preference.

Not every idea would need to be put into such a tab but could be embedded into the game code as sliders are often just one way to handle an idea.
Larian is mature enough to decide themselves if, what and how they might adapt expressed ideas and preferences which people can express in their forum.
If Larian gives a damn about any feedback in the forum then they would be quite meaningless except being a place for pointless pingpong discussions about personal tastes if they not listen or worse, becomming a breeding ground for flames or trolling.

Last edited by Bearhug; 15/06/13 05:46 PM.

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Bearhug, this was my idea posting here. I know for sure Larian want to create a true gem, but every idea coming before can be easily used by them.

I hope they give a shit about what we say here, and I know I am pretty reluctant in seeing 1000 times the same path or waiting the foe to reach me...

I don't know who played a game like King's bounty, but sometimes, you want the full cinematic when you summons your thing, other time you prefer to focus on the combat system. I only propose a switch to not frustrate the player, as I was in TOEE, that's all.

As I will be an alpha player/beta player/final product player, I hope I could give relevant feedback, I'm just trying to do so earlier !

PS : I don't say Larian didn't think of this problem, but if they didn't, I prefer to mention it.

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The reason turn based games don't work as well anymore is because games are now more realistic than ever. A gamers mind was more pliable in terms of discarding reality when playing video games in the 90's because that was the level of sophistication in games. Kinda like cheesy 80's movies were popular because that was the level of expectation. Crappy graphics and no voice acting was more than acceptable back then because that was the standard.

These days both games and movies are more realistic than ever (not necessary so much the world/environment, but the physics and dialog/logic). When something becomes unrealistic it's much more noticeable. And fact is turn based combat isn't realistic. People don't have an infinite amount of time to plan their next movement in real life, so it's become less popular. Gamers these days want games to be as realistic as possible (again in a physics/logic sense), and that will continue to grow as games become more technologically advanced. Turn based games will never come back to mainstream they will just get more and more obscure along with other unrealistic aspects of todays games.

Last edited by Dundalis; 21/06/13 01:45 PM.
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