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Kriss #517099 12/07/14 02:32 AM
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You guys are arguing about realism in a setting with magic. *That* is childish.

Here's the reason why dual-wielding would be a horrible idea for Divinity Original Sin: Str/Dex hybrid viability. Or, to explain it in more detail...

First, let's look at D:OS without dual-wielding. Rogues, assuming they are properly designed/balanced, would not have anything to put in their off hand. As such, daggers would and should be balanced around the assumption that there is no off-hand, and thus be roughly as powerful as a two-hander. This makes the concept of a Str/Dex melee hybrid appealing, since it could essentially allow you to run a "two-hander" along with a shield, simultaneously; this, plus the Man-at-arms skills, is a fair tradeoff for the Con, Speed, etc. you'll be missing out on by pumping Str.

Now let's imagine D:OS with dual-wielding. Rogues would now be dual-wielding daggers, which means Rogues would have to be balanced around this. This would mean that a single dagger in the hand would no longer have approximate two-hander power. This, in turn, would mean that Str/Dex hybrids have less to offer players, because there's nothing special about actually getting to use that off hand slot anymore.

There is absolutely nothing in that argument which deals with realism (or lack thereof). This isn't about realism, it's about game design.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 12/07/14 02:33 AM.
Eli #517291 12/07/14 11:13 AM
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Yeah Kriss, go bullshiting in other threads.
" the Mouser is deadly at swordsmanship (often using a sword in one hand and a long dagger in the other)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafhrd_and_the_Gray_Mouser

Eli #517299 12/07/14 11:24 AM
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The only dual wielding available should be for two daggers, or a rondel+dagger combo.

Which would cost double APs to use, so each strike with dual daggers would cost 4 APs and some special attacks can be created that would cost more.


As ive repeatedly said and suggested several times already.


That would keep things a bit more "realistic" not for the purpose of realism in a fantasy game but for the purpose of not making things way too silly and cheap.

There are different styles of fantasy and ranges of fantasy in them, so one such single global rule cannot be applied for all and is therefore nonsensical.


For OS, dual daggers or rondel+dagger combo - at double of AP cost, - would be very fitting.
It would enhance roguish builds diversity a bit more and be cool as an option to consider.

The animation is practically already there, which is a very important step to consider when suggesting these kinds of changes and additions.


Eli #519292 14/07/14 10:13 PM
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So they clearly plan to include it. Yay!

But... when? smile

Edit:
I don't think "double AP cost" is a good solution for two weapon fighting. AP represents time, i.e. how fast you do things. If you wield two weapons, you're supposed to attack more often. That's the beauty of dual wielding.

Last edited by Eli; 14/07/14 10:18 PM.
Eli #519294 14/07/14 10:16 PM
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No dual wielding in a RPG, this is ridiculous.


I want a better UI !!!
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Yep, we need dual wielding!

Last edited by Eli; 14/07/14 10:20 PM.
Eli #538017 06/08/14 01:47 PM
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Any news on dual wielding?

Dahl #538024 06/08/14 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahl
Any news on dual wielding?

Thankfully no.
Here, this might be more your taste
http://store.steampowered.com/app/72850/

artemis42 #538264 06/08/14 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by artemis42
Originally Posted by Federico93
Actually in eastern cultures dual-wielding of weapons has been vastly utilized and has been used proficiently in 1 vs many situations. In my opinion it would be kinda easy to balance in the game, many ways to make it viable.


I think you may be referring to Eskrima, of which a few styles involve the use of two identical weapons (such as sticks or knives). This is still practiced today in the Philippines.

You're pretty close. I'm going to be pedantic - Sinawali (identical sticks) is more like a substyle that most if not all schools employ.

Now, to make some definitions. One thing to note is that Eskrima was highly influenced by Spanish fencing at the time when they were in the Philippines - Medium length blades, short offhand daggers or small bucklers - mixed together to create a system easy to maneuver and fight in the jungle. Of course the main sword was quickly switched to a machete-like weapon to clear paths.

The mainhand rattan stick is 26-28" long. It represents a Barong knife, which can be 22" long. In comparison, a one-handed European sword would have a blade 26-30" long.

The off hand is basically a knife-lengthed stick. And it lol represents a knife. So, yeah, this is reminiscent of historical European fencing with a main-gauche.

Just as equally used is the off hand being free. By doing so, you can use your free hand to guide the enemy's blade-hand after you dodge/parry, keeping their blade away as you counter.

Of course, you would use the knife in the same way, of guiding (called passing) the enemy's hand. It's IMO a bit tougher to finely control the enemy, instead trading off for more offensive angles of attack.

Now finally getting to Sinawali - using two equal length rattan sticks of 26-28" long. Well. I'm not sure about other schools' philosophies, but my two teachers tell me Sinawali is stupid, lol. But every school is a different lineage and each have their own quirks. For example, I learn Cabales Serrada Escrima. Angel Cabales being the founder of the school, Serrada Escrima meaning "closing skirmish." We use 19-22" mainhand sticks and we play at "corto" or short range.



I digressed a lot but dual wielding can work (in a way that pleases both over-realistic-whiners and Drizzt-fanboys) if you either use a one-handed-sword with a dagger, or you use two equal length short swords.

Moreover, after writing all that, I realized using a single weapon with no shield has its own advantages - that being able to use the free hand to manipulate the opponents' blade-hand. This slows down their ability to parry you, and then slows down their ability to counter attack. Even without a shield you can be quite defensive.

So for a game like but isn't DOS, this gives the Dexterity warrior several options instead of having to pump Strength for a Shield. A Dex warrior/fighter/scoundrel could use: (1) defensive skew: short sword or possibly a rapier, off hand free; (2) offense/defense balance: short sword or possibly a rapier, off hand dagger. (3) offensive skew: two short swords (no, nobody dual wields rapier length swords), alternatively two short daggers if you want to be a badassassassin.

Unfortunately I don't see an easy way of implementing this in DOS but it looks possible as an eventuality (mod?) Would need (A) dex-based short swords, which shouldn't be too bad, (B) is a bit harder, recognizing that (Ba) an off-hand free adds a defensive bonus, (Bb) an off-hand dagger adds less defense but also its weapon damage, (Bc) an off-hand short sword adds only its weapon damage.







P.S. I keep wanting to say longsword but I hold myself back, because historically there is only one longsword, and it's the two-handed German Longsword which has a ~36" blade. In a way it's the European Katana but I'm being quite facetious here.

Eli #538267 06/08/14 08:27 PM
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Two-weapon fighting styles evolved because people didn't have shields (civilians), or don't like carrying shields (they are cumbersome), or wanted to be flashy. That's pretty much it. A shield is better both for offensive and defensive purposes than an offhand weapon.

However, DOS has talking sheep, gods getting into fistfights, and a spell called "deathpunch". I think it's fair to say that DOS is not realistic, or low fantasy.

I'd appreciate some dual weilding mechanics.

And some 'unarmed fighting' mechanics too, for that matter. I want to make Punchy McFisto.

Mangoose #538282 06/08/14 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mangoose
(no, nobody dual wields rapier length swords),


History would disagree with you. [Linked Image]

Common or effective is another matter, but there are historical manuals showing 2 rapiers being used.


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I must refrain from commenting on the sexual orientation of those two gents.

Besides, before introducing such bs, how about fixing the current weapon system? Like, what is the purpose of spears having Dex bonus? What is the purpose of a 2h sword as a melee weapon at lvl 20? The scythe does a ton more damage, more crit and same range?
And why are piercing damage more resisted by many end game fores than say slashing, which is already OP because of scythes? Bow damage sucks hard compared to 2h? WHy is that? I mean in other games, there is a trade off between safety and damage. But here, arhcer is riskier to play and does worse damage and has less utilities. Yes, you heard that right! Archer doesn't have the utility of killing everything will 1 whirlwind in one single turn, the most important utility in this game right now. Why plays anything but a 2hander at all, even then why use anything else but a scythe at all?

haxingW #538320 07/08/14 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by haxingW
Why plays anything but a 2hander at all, even then why use anything else but a scythe at all?


Sounds like you think this is basically the height of game design.

Why complicate a perfectly simple design where you win something? Who would possibly want to use a sub-optimal tactic due to esthetics or a sense of fun?

Eli #538321 07/08/14 12:27 AM
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You need to get fairly lucky with vendors to find a scythe which trumps a hand-crafted ax at Blacksmithing 5. Especially after you sharpen it and toss other ingredients at it.

Still, swords are in a pretty sorry state. Scythes get competition from axes, swords compete with nothing. I mean, Sword of the Planets is alright as a mostly defensive item, which makes it nice to pair with a shield, but that's it for good swords.

But that's all a derail. The actual topic is dual wielding. I already stated what I think in an earlier post. And I still think it.

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The advantage of swords over axes is the bonus stats, crits and range (hand-crafted). A scythe has the range, the stats, the crit and damage. There is no comparison. A spear can enter the equation since he has way better range and deals piercing damage. BUT everything that is remotely threatening has high piercing resistance.

BTW, the high damage, low crit axe at BS 5 cannot be sharpened. You can go and test it. And no hand made thing can give you 3 con 3 str 3 speed before even applying anything in it. Plus, a hand made weapon can only be elemental or tenebrium enhanced not both. This put a hand made weapon in an even worse position. The damage calculator in the stat window actually takes into account elemental damages. In terms of raw damage, you don't even need to be lucky to trump anything hand made.

Point is. If you want to play at your best, there isn't many real options due to balance issues. Adding dual-welding won't yield anymore option. At best, it's subpar. At worst, it's grossly OP and makes everything else pointless. The developers need to take balance seriously.

Again, why in the world spears can have dex bonus??

Eli #538354 07/08/14 02:24 AM
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At best, it's perfectly balanced. Why would you assume that the best case scenario it will suck?

dirigible #538389 07/08/14 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Two-weapon fighting styles evolved because people didn't have shields (civilians), or don't like carrying shields (they are cumbersome), or wanted to be flashy. That's pretty much it. A shield is better both for offensive and defensive purposes than an offhand weapon.

Indeed. In fact a lot of the off-hand dagger techniques are similar to using a buckler (or small shield), if not derived from those techniques. Going larger than a small shield probably has different techniques, though, more-so based on large unit formations (various shield wall formations).

Also, soldiers fought in much larger units than a fantasy adventuring party, and also adventuring puts you in a variety of environments (cities, jungles, dungeons) that a soldier wouldn't face on an open field, so cumbersomeness can be a factor. Your characters in such a game are more like a mongrel of soldiers and civilians and egocentric heroes that just want to look flashy. More like gladiators, I guess.

Anyways you're right, DOS is not a game that tries to be realistic.

Though, how easy to put in dual wielding is an issue, especially if we want it to be mechanically distinct instead of just ore damage with less accuracy). And if dual wielding and unarmed is put in, I'd again like advantages to using a weapon with a free hand.

Originally Posted by Brian Wright
Common or effective is another matter, but there are historical manuals showing 2 rapiers being used.

But how many pages of such a manual would depict this? I'm willing to bet it's like 2 pages, with the rest of the manual describing more useful techniques wink

dirigible #538405 07/08/14 04:18 AM
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Because I am a realist.

Eli #538407 07/08/14 04:22 AM
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Semi realistic Dual Weilding:
Gives a chance to parry melee attacks equal to Single-Handed * 5
Modify your offense by (Singe-Handed rank - 2)* 5
Penalty until rank 2, bonus after rank 2
On a critical strike, attack with your offhand as well as your main hand.

Semi realistic Shield:
Reduce your Agility by 1,2,3 etc (increases as shield gets larger)
Reduce your movement by x (increases as shield gets larger)
Increase your Offense by (Shield * 5)
Gives a chance to block equal to shield rating + (Shield * 5)

Totally unrealistic Unarmed:
Must not have any weapons equipped
Deal blunt damage equal to (Strength + Agility + Level + Bracer Armor rating) * 2 (plus or minus 15%, costs 2 AP)
Increase damage by 5% per rank of Unarmed

haxingW #538418 07/08/14 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by haxingW
Because I am a realist.

Playing the wrong game, buddy boy. And probably should never play a Larian game, lol, they thrive on being not realistic.

I completely agree balance is an issue in this game. However game balance is independent of realism. You can make dual wielding (or ANY mechanic/skill/ability/etc.) subpar, balanced, or OP. In fact if you focus on realism there's a good chance it's not going to help balance, because in real life weapons and equipment sure as hell aren't balanced (they're only appropriate in specific situations... or of course whether a guy can afford a fully metal weapon or a wooden pole with a metal point on the end).

Now if I am misunderstanding you, and that you are saying that they should balance existing mechanics before adding new mechanics, then I again agree.

Last edited by Mangoose; 07/08/14 04:31 AM.
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