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Eli #538426 07/08/14 05:03 AM
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That was what I meant.
I agree that perfect balance cannot be achieved in any game but at least put some effort into it. 'Weakers' weapons should have a niche use that the supposedly superior version cannot match. You can't have an item called 'stick of God' that deals 10k damage and makes yourself invulnerable, and everything else.

Case in point:
Bow: superior range to melee weapons (no shit Sherlock) and safer. What's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Mages: great cc and utility. Again, what's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Rouges: great single target damage. But then, what's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Sword and board: ???lol? uhm, tanky against physical damage. Leech says hello. To add insult to the wound, everyone can have 100% elemental Poisona AND tenebrium resist. (never took Weather the Storm I think it's utterly useless).

Fix those first then add more.

dirigible #538436 07/08/14 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Two-weapon fighting styles evolved because people didn't have shields (civilians), or don't like carrying shields (they are cumbersome), or wanted to be flashy. That's pretty much it. A shield is better both for offensive and defensive purposes than an offhand weapon.

However, DOS has talking sheep, gods getting into fistfights, and a spell called "deathpunch". I think it's fair to say that DOS is not realistic, or low fantasy.

I'd appreciate some dual weilding mechanics.

And some 'unarmed fighting' mechanics too, for that matter. I want to make Punchy McFisto.

Man I am sorely disappointed every time I play an RPG that doesn't have a viable monk build. I get over it pretty quickly, but not before I have shed a few tears.

Mirza #538438 07/08/14 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mirza
Man I am sorely disappointed every time I play an RPG that doesn't have a viable monk build. I get over it pretty quickly, but not before I have shed a few tears.

I feel your pain.
It seems incredibly rare that rpgs give you viable unarmed builds, and when they do they're often uninteresting.

All I want to do is become a kung fu master and punch dragons in the face. Is that so much to ask?

dirigible #538442 07/08/14 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Mirza
Man I am sorely disappointed every time I play an RPG that doesn't have a viable monk build. I get over it pretty quickly, but not before I have shed a few tears.

I feel your pain.
It seems incredibly rare that rpgs give you viable unarmed builds, and when they do they're often uninteresting.

All I want to do is become a kung fu master and punch dragons in the face. Is that so much to ask?

Without any clothes on. You forgot that part.

Eli #538458 07/08/14 06:16 AM
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Well, with no armor on, yes.
Cloth pants, bracers, and nothing else.

Real men don't hide behind armor. They hide behind their fists of fury.

haxingW #538535 07/08/14 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by haxingW
That was what I meant.
I agree that perfect balance cannot be achieved in any game but at least put some effort into it. 'Weakers' weapons should have a niche use that the supposedly superior version cannot match. You can't have an item called 'stick of God' that deals 10k damage and makes yourself invulnerable, and everything else.

Cool. Yup I agree definitely.

As an aside, I almost wanted to say that talking about balance is pointless in this thread. BUT I realized your point in that it's a good thing for the devs to see that while people want dual wielding, it's also clear that (a portion of us) prioritize balance before we want to see any additions.

So TLDR good on you.

Quote
Case in point:
Bow: superior range to melee weapons (no shit Sherlock) and safer. What's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Mages: great cc and utility. Again, what's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Rouges: great single target damage. But then, what's the point if the 2 handers can ram into a group and use nullify then ww to finish the fight?
Sword and board: ???lol? uhm, tanky against physical damage. Leech says hello. To add insult to the wound, everyone can have 100% elemental Poisona AND tenebrium resist. (never took Weather the Storm I think it's utterly useless).

Fix those first then add more.

May I suggest starting a topic with these ideas, SOLELY about Balance issues/concerns/suggestions and not any other fixes? I don't think I see any such thread. You could compile suggestions from further replies or something. Or if that's an issue I could do the thread.

I also know a bunch of posters on another forum that have a keen eye for balance (if not to over the top), I will ask them specifically for a list of their balance concerns.

Last edited by Mangoose; 07/08/14 07:52 AM.
Mangoose #538566 07/08/14 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mangoose
May I suggest starting a topic with these ideas, SOLELY about Balance issues/concerns/suggestions and not any other fixes? I don't think I see any such thread. You could compile suggestions from further replies or something. Or if that's an issue I could do the thread.

There are several "here's a bunch of design things that I think are bad" threads. Just click through the first 5 pages in General.

Last edited by dirigible; 07/08/14 08:38 AM.
dirigible #538571 07/08/14 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Mangoose
May I suggest starting a topic with these ideas, SOLELY about Balance issues/concerns/suggestions and not any other fixes? I don't think I see any such thread. You could compile suggestions from further replies or something. Or if that's an issue I could do the thread.

There are several "here's a bunch of design things that I think are bad" threads. Just click through the first 5 pages in General.

Are they solely about balance, or do they have a mix of interface, quests, RPS minigame, AI, etc. concerns?

Also is the opening post a clear list with a constantly updated compilation of suggestions from the rest of the replies?

Last edited by Mangoose; 07/08/14 08:46 AM.
Eli #538575 07/08/14 08:48 AM
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Check the first 5 pages and see. Or just make a new thread without checking. I'm no moderator.

dirigible #538586 07/08/14 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Check the first 5 pages and see. Or just make a new thread without checking. I'm no moderator.

I did. We need a better organized one that is constantly updated. I may do one, depends how lazy I feel. :p But it seems balance is the number one issue right now, not to say there aren't other justified annoyances.

Eli #538591 07/08/14 09:19 AM
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I agree, though since everybody has their own opinions on what's balanced and what shouldn't be changed and what should, and how it should be changed, it's probably going to be less of a clean list of problems and more of an endless discussion of 'what if this' and 'that doesn't need to be changed' and 'I don't see why you people want x'.

So basically, I support your effort, but I think you're going to be in for a long, messy job sorting through all the opinions.

Eli #538613 07/08/14 09:55 AM
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Definitely, but eh, I feel bad for not testing and providing feedback during beta while I did have access. On the other hand I did note I may be too lazy to do it :p

dirigible #539792 08/08/14 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dirigible
Well, with no armor on, yes.
Cloth pants, bracers, and nothing else.

Real men don't hide behind armor. They hide behind their fists of fury.

Nooooo! I want to be naked!

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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB

Now let's imagine D:OS with dual-wielding. Rogues would now be dual-wielding daggers, which means Rogues would have to be balanced around this. This would mean that a single dagger in the hand would no longer have approximate two-hander power. This, in turn, would mean that Str/Dex hybrids have less to offer players, because there's nothing special about actually getting to use that off hand slot anymore.



The problem actually doesn't exist at all.
One handed weapons wouldn't have to be rebalanced.

It's quite simple. When wielding two weapons you are less accurate and/or deal less damage per hit, but you attack faster (each swing costs less AP).

This is not anything revolutionary or unheard of.


Eli #542402 12/08/14 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Eli
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB

Now let's imagine D:OS with dual-wielding. Rogues would now be dual-wielding daggers, which means Rogues would have to be balanced around this. This would mean that a single dagger in the hand would no longer have approximate two-hander power. This, in turn, would mean that Str/Dex hybrids have less to offer players, because there's nothing special about actually getting to use that off hand slot anymore.



The problem actually doesn't exist at all.
One handed weapons wouldn't have to be rebalanced.

It's quite simple. When wielding two weapons you are less accurate and/or deal less damage per hit, but you attack faster (each swing costs less AP).

This is not anything revolutionary or unheard of.


Yup, it's just not how using two weapons actually works if you're a humanoid.

Kriss #542412 12/08/14 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kriss
Originally Posted by Eli
Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB

Now let's imagine D:OS with dual-wielding. Rogues would now be dual-wielding daggers, which means Rogues would have to be balanced around this. This would mean that a single dagger in the hand would no longer have approximate two-hander power. This, in turn, would mean that Str/Dex hybrids have less to offer players, because there's nothing special about actually getting to use that off hand slot anymore.



The problem actually doesn't exist at all.
One handed weapons wouldn't have to be rebalanced.

It's quite simple. When wielding two weapons you are less accurate and/or deal less damage per hit, but you attack faster (each swing costs less AP).

This is not anything revolutionary or unheard of.


Yup, it's just not how using two weapons actually works if you're a humanoid.


You mean like two-handed weapons in real life tend to be very, very fast and defensively precise, despite the video game representation of them as slower and clumsier?

It doesn't matter either way. The game is not a depiction of real life. Verisimilitude, not simulation.

Eli #544112 15/08/14 06:06 PM
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I do want to see dual-wielding daggers for rogues, though I can see the balance issues as well. Instead of rebalancing "ALL" the weapons and stats and how they and their bonuses work, couldn't they "Only" cut dagger damage in half across the board? If Dagger damage was halved then having a character with two daggers would be the same as having a character with one dagger now, at least I *think*. Of course I know there's finer balance points I'm missing as well, but I don't see why it couldn't be done, at the very least Just With Rogues and daggers as a specialty skill for being a rogue.

If that is accomplishable then *Maybe* the same could be done with Just "Short Swords" (not long swords) and cut short sword damage in half and allow other classes to dual-wield them but only them.

IIRC I think back in Baldur's Gate a thief *could* dual-wield short swords but not any other kind of sword, then again it's been a Long Time since I did a play-through of that.

Now, we all know the game mechanics from D:OS is "based on" old school D&D mechanics, as are many other RPG's and Action RPG's. Any game that uses the standard STR, DEX, INT, etc etc, to me is based on D&D even if they alter how things work like D:OS does. I honestly don't know why dual-wielding wasn't thought about and taken into consideration by the devs from the very start. It's literally a "Must Have" to me in games like this, but then again that's just my opinion which is stuck on being back-in-the-day with old school D&D mechanics.

Un-armed combat should have been thought of too I think, but when I compare dual-wielding to un-armed combat, un-armed has always taken a back seat as Monks tend to be a lesser used class in many games and a dual-wielding rogue has always been a standard in "D&D Based" RPGs.


What do I see? I see time as it affects all things. Human flesh whithers and dies before my eyes. Flowers bloom, only to fade. Trees drop green leaves, never to regain them. In my sight, it is always winter, always night. ~ Raistlin Majere
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Guys, this is not about "how it works in real life".


Originally Posted by RavenXavier
I do want to see dual-wielding daggers for rogues, though I can see the balance issues as well. Instead of rebalancing "ALL" the weapons and stats and how they and their bonuses work, couldn't they "Only" cut dagger damage in half across the board?


Like it's been already pointed out, there's no need to rebalance any weapons (specifically for dual-wielding purposes). Simply, when you wield two weapons, you get a penalty to accuracy for intance, but you attack faster.


Anyway, is it possible we'll see two weapon fighting in the big September patch? think

Eli #550422 05/09/14 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Eli
Hello,
this game looks amazing. I was wondering if characters will be able to dual wield weapons. Any chances at all?



GREAT IDEA!!! smile


Killing shouldn't be the solution for everything!!!
Kriss #550604 06/09/14 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kriss
Originally Posted by Daegon
Maximus in Gladiator, and Gannicus and Spartacus didn't look like "le epic ninja xDDDD" - they looked freaking awesome and the fighting looked realistic enough for us dual wielding lovers to want to ROLE PLAY games with the fighting style WE want..

... got it, kid? /facepalm right back at you.

He thinks dual wielding looks good and not silly.
Thinks any sane person would dual wield during actual combat.
Thinks role-playing is defined by gear.
Wants the developers to shoehorn in something they they excluded, because he thinks it looks good.
Calls others children, when he's advocating for a feature that is aimed directly at children who want to "look cool" be added.

I'm done with this thread, I hope Larian don't add dual wielding because it's useless as a fighting style and only has entertainment value, and guess what, Source Hunters aren't street performers. Have a nice day.

Most of this is your opinion. In the end, this is a game. If dual wielding is something people like, why do you care so much? There are a lot of unrealistic things in the game. It's a fantasy game, not a medieval simulator.

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