Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta [Feedback] Level locks ruin DoS as a RPG

DOS, at the moment, has three mechanics to prevent 'power creep' on characters:

1) Level locked items / spells
2) Skill locked items (spells do not appear to require a minimum skill, which is odd): mostly weapons, and even worse, the skill requirements are in no way balanced or uniform. e.g. spears - 1 point in 2H up to level 7, 2 points from level 8; compare to shields, where a bog standard, 10% block metal decoration shield requires level 4, both in level and skill level. Hint: Character level should never equal Skill level for requirements, ever in a RPG, for obvious reasons*.
3) Availability: player level determines the crafting level of items (i.e. level 8 char makes level 8-16 items, usually); shop keepers and so on appear to generate on player level <=> open trade window (tested on various NPCs; pro-tip, don't trade with the guy outside the Legionaire storeroom until level 8+, you can find some excellent magical weapons) and magical loot on boss drops is determined by mob level. In short, the RNG is heavily tied to character level behind the scenes, you're just not told about it.

2) and 3) are usual and to be expected; 1) totally kills DOS' as a true RPG, and kills any real desire for exploration / pushing the envelope, and in fact cuts down on viable casual builds but enforces cookie-cutter class builds.

I've been so irked by this, I fired up Risen (another German export), which is the archetype for low availability, skill locked items/weapons. For the uninitiated - the game follows 2)&3); there are relatively few weapons, armor is locked to faction / chapters, and you need serious investment in exploration to find powerful items. Risen does this right - even with relatively few choices / options (especially in the first chapter), there is a sense of freedom and player choice about builds. (Risen also does permanent loot with no RNG, but this is unimportant for this post).

DoS? Exactly the opposite. Worse, I can see no reason for level locks on any of the content, barring spells (where a skill requirement would amply suffice, as long as it was done correctly), simply because 3) and the RNG are so obviously in play. i.e. you simply cannot get higher tier items unless you really push the boat out**.

Worse than this, these three limits create artificial difficulty (especially in fighter characters), where the player is basically contesting with the RNG rather than the game to determine the difficulty of playing. A player not building a "pure build" (i.e. spending points across the board rather than single focus) is likely to shaft themselves, and there are very real bottle necks simply generated by the level locks combined with the RNG.


TL;DR

Level locks on items / spells are artificial, redundant due to the RNG already doing it behind the scenes, reduce immersion and are basically not fun. I cannot see the logic behind including them, nor can I see any advantages.

Discuss ~ but on weighing up my thoughts on DoS, it's this part of the mechanics that has tipped me towards a "Not worth £25.99" rather than anything else.


*A character gets ~4 SP / level, work out the math; at the moment, part of why the fighter class is so unbalanced is because 'sword & board' requires far more SP than a mage using even two schools
** Actually, apart from crafting, there's no way of getting much higher tier gear at this point, due to the RNG = level behind the scenes equations


(Oh, and the shitty RNG loot tables which aren't functioning atm, especially given the Risenesque permanent world where every chest counts, but those I expect to change before going gold. Yes, I'm looking at you, Miss "level 10 chests")

The skill system is a work in progress. The December build had no level locks and only skill locks (if that).

A large number of RPG's have skills of different power that require you to increase your level before you can use them. I'd go so far as to call it the normal standard.

I do agree with the main thrust of your argument that the system in D:OS isn't working so well. Specifically this (which I have posted elsewhere before):





I agree that the current system of increasing the points requires to learn a new level encourages players into concentrating their points on maxing out their primary abilities immediately and ignoring other ones.

Ahh, I had no idea that this alpha really was this early on. Fascinating.



You're thinking of the ARPG standard (Diablo, Torchlight) where level unlocks skill tiers. DoS obviously doesn't have this, and isn't an ARPG. And before you think it: DoS doesn't have tiered skills at all, nor does it have a D&D feat system where perks are chained to level requirements (as well as tiered skills, but let's keep this simple)*.

Basically, the skill system is horizontal, and the perk system is unconnected to skills, which is no issue, but you're thinking about it in the wrong manner, from a balance perspective.

Which is why I referenced Risen, not a couple of other RPGs, because the skill system is comparable. I'm fairly sure a few of Larian's dev team will understand immediately.


Rough translation: I'm very aware of the meta-mechanics of RPGs, and how DoS is doing it, and I'm very aware that DoS is basically RPG-light at this point. I'm being relatively polite about the lack of depth, however I'm not interested in a discussion about the meta-meta-level, just what's on the plate in front of me.

Which, at this point, is fairly unappetising, I'm sorry to say.


Lions, Tigers & Bears.




*Heck, even Exile chained perks to skill requirements, but there we go; I'm working with what is in front of me, not what could be.

Alpha testing for backers started in Dec 17. It was very raw build

This is only temporary though right? I easily hit 5 just in this short alpha. That would be lame having to put points in other undesirable abilities for the rest of the game.

Afaik all the talents are unlocked at the moment from the start which is temp, or they may be planning something else by now, and yes the cap will probably be higher, we're only playing a small portion of the game and that is enough of a window to test balancing at the moment.

We're currently experimenting with a couple of things on this front but in principle agree with what Steamuser wrote. The next update (scheduled next week) *should* feature different types of requirements and changes in how weapon abilities affect combat. There's actually a pretty big change list coming up and there are quite a few improvements again in the rules department.

Can't wait to see the changes. Hope you guys continue to monitor issues and adjust accordingly. Level locks can really ruin a smooth experience and destroy the sense of character growth if you are required to invest in uninteresting skills and traits just because you have no other choice.

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* A small issue I have is how long it takes to pick items up. Like the very beginning area, there are 5 tomatoes on the ground. Unless I don't know the correct way, I am holding ALT to see the item names, and it takes a good 1-2 seconds for each item to *fly* to my character and into my inventory*. Not sure if this is final or not, but it makes it a pain to grab multiple items.

* Another issue is that containers (crates, boxes, barrels etc) do not close when you walk away from them.

*Another issue is that the ESC does not function properly when other windows are open, say the Character Screen. ESC brings up the menu for options and such, instead of closing the current open window.

(Sorry for rambling, this was about level locks)

Yeah, we have a general feedback thread for this. I'll reply anyway though:

1) I agree, picking up those 5 tomatoes one at a time slowly is a pain. (This is not sarcasm.)

2) They should be in this version. Are you not getting far enough away?

3) That will be done.

Can't tell if sarcasm for #1 or not lol, but obviously this applies to any spot in the game where multiple items are near each other. If sarcasm, disregard and I will go reload my detector batteries.

#2. I will test when I get home from work, to see if I was not going far enough away.

#3. Awesome! Good to know.

edit-
I will post in the correct area now, sorry!