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I think it was reasonable feedback; and in this specific case the developers seems to agree that adding a bit of spice helps. Not sure why it offends Kein but you can't please everyone smile

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Originally Posted by meme
I think it was reasonable feedback; and in this specific case the developers seems to agree that adding a bit of spice helps. Not sure why it offends Kein but you can't please everyone smile

I think it was the "mandatory" comment that is perhaps objectionable. I've no problems with combat being optional, perhaps one particular path to the completion of a quest, but why force players into it? Personally I don't really care for large amounts of combat in my games, I prefer exploration and finding alternative solutions like mediation, sneaking or whatever unless I'm in a particularly belligerent mood. It's all about choice rather than suggesting that players "should" like things to be such-and-such a way, which is an unfortunately prevalent attitude amongst some sections of the RPG community.


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Originally Posted by Vometia
Originally Posted by meme
I think it was reasonable feedback; and in this specific case the developers seems to agree that adding a bit of spice helps. Not sure why it offends Kein but you can't please everyone smile

I think it was the "mandatory" comment that is perhaps objectionable. I've no problems with combat being optional, perhaps one particular path to the completion of a quest, but why force players into it? Personally I don't really care for large amounts of combat in my games, I prefer exploration and finding alternative solutions like mediation, sneaking or whatever unless I'm in a particularly belligerent mood. It's all about choice rather than suggesting that players "should" like things to be such-and-such a way, which is an unfortunately prevalent attitude amongst some sections of the RPG community.


Only if you take the comment out of context. Look at the entire statement:

Originally Posted by Gyson
I think the period of time spent in Cyseal could really benefit from a battle or two. That's it.. just something to break up the act of running back and forth between locations and NPCs to progress the story. Maybe a bar fight, or assassins attacking the party inside the town at some point, a band of thugs that need to be dealt with, orcs that have snuck into the town, whatever.. just something. Don't alter the time spent inside the town to a total combat-fest, just maybe pepper it with a mandatory fight or two to help with the pacing.


"Mandatory" in this case is referring to examples of battles that players can't avoid due to the way they're woven into the story. For example, by the time the player enters Cyseal they've learned that it has come under attack by orcs several time already. You, in fact, are forced to deal with such an attack prior to being allowed to enter Cyseal. It's a mandatory battle - one that can not be missed by chance or due to the way you've chosen to play your character. As tactical combat is a huge part of the game, one should not expect to be able to avoid it at every opportunity.

The problem with Cyseal was that there were combat opportunities in town: you could kill the elder elf, you can fail the ghost's test and trigger a battle, you can get into a skirmish with the guards, you can attack almost anyone if you want. But if you're trying to play as someone who isn't a complete jerk, psychopath or incompetent, all the optional fights become non-options. You miss them "due to the way you've chosen to play your character".. and that can be frustrating for someone itching for some tactical combat after two hours of errand-running in town.

Thus, what I was looking for was a fight for the rest of us: players who don't go around picking fights but are drawn into one because circumstances make it unavoidable (i.e. mandatory) - like another orc attack on the city, assassins striking at the party, getting sucked into the chaos of a bar fight, etc. You don't have to be playing an incompetent, psychotic, or jerkish character to participate in these, you just have to show up and let the storyline play out to an unavoidable combat encounter.

Now, if you wanted to be presented with an option of "fighting off the orc attack on the town" or "walk away and leave everyone to be slaughtered", I have nothing against that other than the fact that it makes little sense seeing as your characters have already shown they're willing to help protect the town from orcs, and creating an alternate Cyseal that's under orc occupation due to your lack of action is (while interesting) a little more work than I wanted to ask of the developers.

Again, the "mandatory" part of that statement was all about context.

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and that can be frustrating for someone itching for some tactical combat after two hours of errand-running in town.

This is so true.


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I understand what you mean by mandatory, but I still don't like it. It should be a choice: give a combat option or a negotiation option, for example. Players who like combat can take that option, players who don't can take the other. I don't really see the point in forcing all players down a certain route whether they like it or not: play the game the way you like, and let me play the way I like, the latter of which means mostly avoiding combat. That IMHO is the essence of a true RPG, and the way I choose to play it shouldn't be anyone else's concern.

I'd also view the "fight the orcs or let everyone be slaughtered" as a false dichotomy: that isn't much of a choice.


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Late to the party, but my 2 ct. are that I don't feel that mandatory combat in Cyseal is necessary.
As has been stated, there's always the possibility to leave the town, several quests point you to locations outside of town and there's plenty of combat to be had there.

Anyway, if there's a good reason for a combat encounter in Cyseal I'm not necessarily against it, I just don't think it's really necessary.

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Originally Posted by Vometia
I understand what you mean by mandatory, but I still don't like it. It should be a choice: give a combat option or a negotiation option, for example. Players who like combat can take that option, players who don't can take the other. I don't really see the point in forcing all players down a certain route whether they like it or not: play the game the way you like, and let me play the way I like, the latter of which means mostly avoiding combat. That IMHO is the essence of a true RPG, and the way I choose to play it shouldn't be anyone else's concern.

I'd also view the "fight the orcs or let everyone be slaughtered" as a false dichotomy: that isn't much of a choice.


As with life, in a true RPG sometimes a choice isn't always available.

For example: you're surrounded and attacked by assassins. They're going to try and kill you. You can try to talk your way out of it, buy them off, etc, but in the end they're still going to try and kill you. You can either defeat them or you'll die - that's the extent of your choice. If that's the scenario, then that's the scenario.

There are many combat encounters outside Cyseal (both prior to arriving and then upon departing) that can't be avoided (i.e. mandatory), I'm surprised anyone flinches at the concept of them. Did you, for example, really feel like your choices were being taken away when you ran into the hostile crabs shortly after starting the game? Because I can't recall seeing anyone complaining about any of those fights, so I really think some people in this thread were highly overreacting with the proposal of adding another battle during a particularly long dry spell.

It wasn't the end of the world, it was just more of what was already in the game - which everyone seemed to be fine with until "one or two more battles" was proposed, as if that was the tipping point that would somehow destroy all semblance of choice and role-playing in the game.

I can sum this entire thing up much better by saying "people on the internet overreacted".

Originally Posted by El Zoido
Late to the party, but my 2 ct. are that I don't feel that mandatory combat in Cyseal is necessary.
As has been stated, there's always the possibility to leave the town, several quests point you to locations outside of town and there's plenty of combat to be had there.

Anyway, if there's a good reason for a combat encounter in Cyseal I'm not necessarily against it, I just don't think it's really necessary.


Heh. You're so late to the party that (with the latest patch, and as a result of player feedback) a few additional combat encounters were made available during our time in Cyseal. The developers work pretty fast.

Has it ruined the game for you in some way? Do you feel they can be improved? If so, how and why?

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I have played the latest build only very briefly, but that is how I understand things:

Larian added one dungeon beneath the cemetery where you can meet some undead creatures and fight against them. If you want to have more fights in Cyseal - go down to this dungeon, if you prefer the peaceful way - just ignore the dungeon and continue with the murder investigation. So, as far as I see this solution should satisfy everyone.

So where is the problem? Or do I miss something obvious (please correct me if it is so)?

Last edited by Elwyn; 09/03/14 07:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Elwyn
I have played the latest build only very briefly, but that is how I understand things:

Larian added one dungeon beneath the cemetery where you can meet some undead creatures and fight against them. If you want to have more fights in Cyseal - go down to this dungeon, if you prefer the peaceful way - just ignore the dungeon and continue with the murder investigation. So, as far as I see this solution should satisfy everyone.

So where is the problem? Or do I miss something obvious (please correct me if it is so)?


Yes, and I thanked them for this addition back when the patch was released. I thought it was an example of evaluating feedback and then making a decision to act upon it, but according to Kein this addition is just another example of Larian giving into the "whiners". Who knew! rolleyes

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He's been toxic just about everywhere, and he even has the gall to tell other people they should put me on ignore (after chasing me around on the forums and sniping me for a couple of days). That much should tell you he's better left entirely alone.

Back on-topic: I really do enjoy everything they're doing with our feedback, and I feel like I'll be playing this game forEVER when it finally comes out. The graveyard tunnel was just what we needed I think.

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I have not played since my first play through, but I am glad to here that combat was added. It was an extremely long period of time without any fighting.

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The reason we didn't have combat in Cyseal before, is because it didn't make sense. Unless you wanted to fight rats in cellars. The tunnel that leads to the well and the graveyard and the cellar of the abandoned house makes sense, because it explains how "the corpse" was moved. (If you know what corpse I mean, you will understand.)

Yes, there was combat missing in Cyseal, but we wouldn't have just placed it there for its own sake. So now it makes sense. Also, even without the small dungeon, you could just leave Cyseal any time you like and go fight some skeletons, right?


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I'm just glad you added the experience through dialogue feature. It makes things feel much more natural and gives us incentive to communicate more, especially where quests are concerned. I can't comment on the combat you added yet since I am waiting for the next hotfix before I play. When it arrives, however, I will jump in once more and be able to let you know.


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Unless you wanted to fight rats in cellars.

Well, we fight crabs on the beach...

Anyways, as old as it sounds, a rat invasion in a plagued city besieged by undeads could make sense. Maybe in the inn cellar, where there is food ? In a remote part of the cemetary, or of the small dungeon ?
Give a little chance to catch a disease/be poisoned when a rat succeeds an attack. Make some "rat head" trophy,that ht eplayer will loot every time he kills a rat (or almost, because sometimes, you just crush them heads...) that the players will be able to sell for, like 5 XPs, and 10 gold (in a specific convo with the innkeeper, or any Bounty hunter legionnaire ?). Not much, but still better way to gain gold than, say, opening crates ? And want to make use of those crates ? Make a random spawn of those rats when a player breaks a crate in the "rat invasion" area ("where are you hiddin' ye crittaaaars...").
Of course, this is not "source hunter" job. Just as finding a job for fishermen is not. Just don't make it mandatory. Players call.
I think it is a little way to add some life and "world interactions" and things to do in Cyseal.

Had it been me, I would have added a "Bounty hunting "job"" ability, that would give 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% / 30% bonus to gained XPs/gold from such Bounty stuff. Anyways, its me, and the world is not random respawn, and XPs scumming/level issues, and blah blah blah, I know, just sharing my thoughts on making the world more "interreactive" ...

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Also, even without the small dungeon, you could just leave Cyseal any time you like and go fight some skeletons, right?

"Quite" right. As a matter a fact, going pretty fast to the Level 6 undead packs outside with my basic knight and warrior builds requires that you gain at least a few levels, and/or find proper gear, and/or hire back up, if not all of that, which is really quite tedious (just finding the inn is tedious in the beginning...).

So you really would need to prepare for these fights, which I learnt the very hard way quite a lot of times... And still, "being found" by one of those packs (instead of finding them, really), with auto combat start, would mean instant "back to town" button, and eventually end of alpha try, out of boredom and frustration, waiting for the next patch.

Not a personnal attack or anything, really, just trying to explain how the beginning of the game might feel for some players.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 11/03/14 09:54 PM.

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i couldn't agree more that the pacing of the early game is to a point that makes it become annoying.
i would suggest a hybrid idea between a mandatory and an optional fight. an event that give you the choice to fight or avoid combat, and more importantly, interacting with the game in the way that how you solve the encounter.

for example, a bully harassing shop keeper in the market. you can choose to a) pretend you don't see him b) talk to him and if you don't have a good social skill will eventually leads into fighting.

by avoiding combat, you will actually feel bad that you didn't stop the harassment and shop keeper detest you as you watch instead of helping.

by fighting him and killed him, his friends will come back and try bite you in the ass.

by fighting him and stopped when he begs you, you will be given a second chance to talk/bluff him stop harassing shop keeper, too low of social skill will fail and results in revenge or continue of shop keeper harassment.

something like that, the opposite of the existing optional fight in town, which now you actually feels bad or not following the quest if you don't fight or try/failed to solve the encounter

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
You can walk right out of a gate at any time. Picking up the companions takes a minute at most.


IMO this is something we do learn from playing it a few times over. But the first time I played and I suspect many people are like this. We don't know what to expect. What we fall into is "Talk to everybody" because if I don't I might miss a key part. Then you have 10 quests going at once... to be honest I'm not a big fan of that, to me stories get lost. But since I didn't know how the game worked being new to it, that is the safest way to roll.

So with that mindset, you can spend a lot of time in town before you get into a run of fair sized battles.

Now knowing how it all works, yes you can get to town, go grab the 2 Hirelings and head out the West Gate and fight level 2 and 3's to have some fighting fun and level. All within 5-10 mins of arriving.

I go back to the Bartender in the Crab should be the TIP guy. "Hey if you want to have some fun knocking heads when you get into town, head out the West Gate. Great way to toughen up!"

Good News: There will be Walkthrough's coming...

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Wait, people want MORE combat?
Am I the only one here who thinks combat is the weakest part of any RPG, and the negative Combat/non-combat quantity is usually representitive of the game's quality (which in the case of OS means "good quality, and it is!).

Why ruin that with more combat? There's more to games than stupid meaningless combat every 10 minutes. The less the better! Am I alone in there?

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Wait, people want MORE combat?
Am I the only one here who thinks combat is the weakest part of any RPG, and the negative Combat/non-combat quantity is usually representitive of the game's quality (which in the case of OS means "good quality, and it is!).

Why ruin that with more combat? There's more to games than stupid meaningless combat every 10 minutes. The less the better! Am I alone in there?


I don't know about you being the only one. But combat overall is the most important part for me, I put that right into the gameplay dept. The other side is story. If anything was mostly or nearly all about story. I still find Movies and TV far superior to the point I don't know if/when games vs tv/movies will be equal. For game stories I do like them more linear, too many stories going on at once, means a lot of I don't care anymore and just die!

So yes combat is very important to me. Coop-Turnbased and what is turning into a good system is TITS in my book. This is like playing DnD on a PC without all the hassle of doing all the table top work. Thank you! Thank You! THANK YOU!

Last edited by Horrorscope; 30/05/14 06:20 PM.
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(Sighs) If all you want is combat, go play a Shooter!! An RPG should offer alternatives to any and all combat IMHO. Working out different ways to accomplish things without resorting to combat is FAR more important to me. Yes, I realise that it IS a part of gameplay, but it shouldn't dominate. Two of my all time favourite games PS-T and U7 allowed you to avoid a great deal of the possible combat and PS-T actually rewarded you for doing so!!


If God said it, then that settles it!!

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
[quote=Hassat Hunter]Wait, people want MORE combat?
Am I the only one here who thinks combat is the weakest part of any RPG, and the negative Combat/non-combat quantity is usually representitive of the game's quality (which in the case of OS means "good quality, and it is!).

Why ruin that with more combat? There's more to games than stupid meaningless combat every 10 minutes. The less the better! Am I alone in there?


I don't know about you being the only one. But combat overall is the most important part for me, I put that right into the gameplay dept. The other side is story. If anything was mostly or nearly all about story. I still find Movies and TV far superior to the point I don't know if/when games vs tv/movies will be equal. For game stories I do like them more linear, too many stories going on at once, means a lot of I don't care anymore and just die!

So yes combat is very important to me. Coop-Turnbased and what is turning into a good system is TITS in my book. This is like playing DnD on a PC without all the hassle of doing all the table top work. Thank you! Thank You! THANK YOU! [/quote

Would be nice to have some optional dungeon type areas and quests inside ... cellars... rodent problems ring a bell lol

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