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#482838 23/02/14 07:17 AM
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So far, it seems there are kill monster XPs, achieve quest XPs and exploration XPs. I REALLY hope I am missing some other way to gain XPs, because this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO mainstream. Sounds like WOW so far :-(


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Cromcrom #482843 23/02/14 09:17 AM
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Do you have any suggestions for other types of XP?

Raze #482848 23/02/14 10:52 AM
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1/ Crafting
2/ succeeding or failing at various tasks (but that would need a "dedicated" system, where failure is possible), like lock picking, or some sort of stuff like that.
3/ finding secrets, but I think this is already implemented.
4/ reading "one use" experience books, one could buy or find as loot;
5/ training with dummies, sparing partners,
6/ receiving lessons from masters (because obviously, PCs are novice source hunters, sent on a suicide quest with some toy Equipment...)
7/ getting badly hurt, or even dying (at least to some extend...)
8/ casting some special powerfull hard to find spells
9/ succeeding at some social checks (but there again, it requires a succeed/fail system).

it doesn't have to be 500XPs every time, but a few randomized XPs (based on intelligence, for example) could do...


You know, RPG, imagination, making the world interactive (beside picking up spoons, fish and goblets, and chain-opening barrels...).

At least, this is what I will try to do in my mod, (if the editor allows this kind of Scripting).

Sharing ideas here.


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Cromcrom #482854 23/02/14 01:29 PM
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Larian said that there won't be any minigames. That makes it more difficult to add things like failing at lockpicking. They could add an arbitrary chance of failure, but doing that seems kinda silly.

A lot of these suggestions remind me of the Elder Scrolls systems. Don't get me wrong, I like how those systems work, but there's a pretty substantial difference in the game worlds. That difference is that the Elder Scrolls games have a very very large world with respawning enemies that scale to your level based on your level entering a zone. The base game of Original Sin has a smaller world with fixed-level enemies that do not respawn.

Mods specifically designed for renewable XP might be fine, but adding in renewable sources of XP to the base game will screw up the balance.

Stabbey #482858 23/02/14 02:19 PM
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They could add an arbitrary chance of failure, but doing that seems kinda silly.

No agression here, but why would it be silly ? All RPG systems I created are based on range of failure/successes, among other principles. You fail, you lose a lockpick. Critical fail might raise some kind of alarm, or destroy the lock, or whatever. Just need some imagination to make it "fun", espacially in a multiplayer RPG stuff.

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The base game of Original Sin has a smaller world with fixed-level enemies that do not respawn.

Fine for the smaller world. Non respawnable enemies is an open world killer IMHO. There should be some sort of respawnable stuff, be it animals, plants, foraging enemies, and so on.
No respawn, would be terrible for the living feel of the world and the replayability. My real life would be probably more interesting than Rivellon :-(.

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but adding in renewable sources of XP to the base game will screw up the balance.

I disagree. It would increase the feeling of interactivity, increase interesting world interactions, and make every little actions less boring.
A steady flow of low XPs depending of your actions and skills, and then some big one coming when you succeed at quests and whatever.


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Cromcrom #482869 23/02/14 09:24 PM
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I, too, am opposed to including more RNG than is necessary. If you have invested the skill points into breaking open locks, you simply shouldn't fail on a typical lock (this is why I actually remove critical fails when I DM in Dungeons and Dragons).

Too much random is just anti-fun. Closing off a route or basically making it fight against you when you had the skill to make it possible is lame (the game essentially punishes you for doing nothing wrong, which is a terrible part about RNG). Now if you wanted to trigger an alarm for having too low skill, then we might have something.

___

When he's talking about screwing up the balance, I believe he's talking about scumming. Being able to kill respawning enemies will allow a player to scum exp until they're overleveled to fight bosses etc instead of becoming better at the game. It also gives the player too much wealth and too many skills on top of these levels from acquired wealth in said scumming.

Cromcrom #482871 23/02/14 09:39 PM
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Divine Divinity had a couple sparing sessions where you could get experience, in one case with a skill as a reward if you won, but they were one time events. There were also objects and books that could give you experience or skills (ie a set of 3 books on trading that would teach a bartering skill if you found and read all of them), and a couple 'lessons from masters' (experience and spells from quest reward). D:OS may contain similar things.

Raze #482876 23/02/14 10:30 PM
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If you have invested the skill points into breaking open locks, you simply shouldn't fail on a typical lock (this is why I actually remove critical fails when I DM in Dungeons and Dragons).

It is not because you know how to run that you can't fall or sprain one's ankle.


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When he's talking about screwing up the balance, I believe he's talking about scumming. Being able to kill respawning enemies will allow a player to scum exp until they're overleveled to fight bosses etc instead of becoming better at the game. It also gives the player too much wealth and too many skills on top of these levels from acquired wealth in said scumming.

This is really a balance issue. You don't have to give 1000 gold or 1000 Xp everytime you kill a mob, or chain-spawn them...We will see.

Respawning is all about exploration, discovery, replayability and a strong sense of surprise. Its the difference between doing a factory job, and being an explorer. I know what I want to do.


@Raze: yeah, this kind of stuff sounds good.


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Cromcrom #482882 23/02/14 11:11 PM
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I think it's more of a design philosophy difference between Larian and Bethesda.

From their statements and previous games, Larian pretty strongly believes that once you clear an area, it should stay cleared.

I think changing the game to allow for grinding of infinite XP, even in small amounts, would be a huge headache to implement and an gigantic migrane to balance - look how unbalanced the XP gains are already in the alpha, and that's with limited XP and without quest XP for some quests added in yet.

Stabbey #482884 24/02/14 12:01 AM
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The no respawn is the reason their random loot on mobs does not make sense. The reason for diablo style loot it to go kill respawns over and over looking for better loot. I also hate the no respawn clear without consequence. It should not make you a hero, it should make you hated as the towns people see live stock over populating, crop production go down from overgrazing and eventually a famine because the people can no longer feed themselves or their live stock because you killed all the mobs that would help keep those numbers down in the first place.

When you talk to the orc on the beach he even says we will not stop trying to come and take the stone in the city. Yet no more waves come, at least if there was respawn it would make sense with the dialogue they have in place. You are not even the one that cleared out those orcs and it is indicated they are willing to keep send wave after wave.

arkand #482892 24/02/14 06:13 AM
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I think it's more of a design philosophy difference between Larian and Bethesda.
Definitely. Sadly, Bethesda is much more well known than Larian. But the issue is respawning here.

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I think changing the game to allow for grinding of infinite XP, even in small amounts, would be a huge headache to implement and an gigantic migrane to balance - look how unbalanced the XP gains are already in the alpha, and that's with limited XP and without quest XP for some quests added in yet.

You don't get my point here. I don't think the interest of respawn is grinding on infinite XPs, it is adding a sense of unpredictability (wew, that was a hard one ^^) to the world. And then, if the player wants to spend hours hanging around in a forest, that is an easy choice given to him.
I haven't seen the editor yet, but implementing it and balancing it is could be very easy, you can believe me, I created these kind of systems for all my mods.
Could be as simple as a hunting ground, where you can hunt some game (instead of stupidly finding "sinews" in random barrels...). Many ways to balance this.

IMHO, proper coherent NPC's schedule could be so much more difficult to set up (a house to create, and beds for each NPC/citizen, activities, scripts..) than random respawning. And all this to have some players kill every NPC's. Not worth the pain IMHO. And for what effect ? "Hey look, that Citizen GOES TO BED, HOW AMAZING"...

And then, some areas can be cleanable. Once again, it has to make sense. Cleaning a crypt from its undeads would make sense (but then, after some time, one could imagine that some critters settle in, or a necromancer could be back in business), cleaning a forest from its animals, mushrooms, plants, is utterlly stupid in a "realistic" way. Even then, respawning could be "fun", like "Hey, I know a place where there are special mushrooms, let's go check it." and then, you encouter bears, an orcish patrol, an undead swarm, a forest fire, whatever random spawn could be created. And make an adventure just to go get some shrooms.

Some players ARE grinders. Respawn can also offer them a cheap way to find something "fun" to do, and so kindda widen the audience to some extend.

And then, what if I miss 500 XPs to gain a level ? I could go explore the forest a little bit.

I really am for a steady flow of low XPs than for a big rush of them. It makes casual actions more rewarding, and so "everyday actions less boring".

And of course, I keep in mind that this is alpha, and only a small part of the game.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 24/02/14 06:16 AM.

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Cromcrom #482893 24/02/14 07:00 AM
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All that sounds to me is that you want to scum for exp and loot. Balancing content difficulty is impossible if you're allowed to scum. There is no "proper" amount of exp at any point with random respawns. Your sarcastic bullcrap is also rather funny, seeing as you really -aren't- in possession of some obvious truth.

Tell me, how do you balance an indefinitely high exp value when comparing it to bosses? There is a "recommended level" idea, but that's not balance. That's asking the player to balance himself instead of scumming or skipping enemies. He can have it as hard or easy as he likes in an RPG with random (re)spawns.

I'm sure that if you REALLY want it, too, then modding will be your way to get it, but telling Larian that they should change their game when they've pretty consistently done otherwise makes no sense, especially not with your argument. Play a different game if you really aren't satisfied with having to mod it in. It's your taste and not Larian's.

YoungFreshNewbie #482916 24/02/14 05:05 PM
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Your sarcastic bullcrap is also rather funny, seeing as you really -aren't- in possession of some obvious truth.

Please forgive me for not being as Enlightened as you are, YoungFreshNewbie AlMighty. And please allow me to LOL.

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He can have it as hard or easy as he likes in an RPG with random (re)spawns.

And what is the problem with that ?

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Tell me, how do you balance an indefinitely high exp value when comparing it to bosses?

How I balance ? It could be a matter of scale, and time investment.
scale: if you need 100 Xp to gain a level, and give 50Xps to a player every times he performs a mundane task, or kill a respawned critter, then I agree with you, it is bullshit.
On the other hand, if I need 10 000 Xps to gain a level, and reward 10 Xps for mundane tasks or killing respawns, and give 5000 XPs for fulfilling the basic quest, I am still rewarding the player for his "actions".
Time investment: Playing mundane/respawns will take a much longer time to level up than following the main quest. So it's up to the player as to which path he will choose.
I don't see how giving a little more optionnal leveling options to the players could hurt the gameplay...

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I'm sure that if you REALLY want it, too, then modding will be your way to get it,

This is what I have done every time I could put my hands on a decent understandable RPG editor, like NWN2, Mount and blade warband, or Legend of grimrock...

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Play a different game if you really aren't satisfied with having to mod it in.

+1. I probably wont go paste Cyseal when the game is released, way to boring for me to get past this ordeal. I bought DOS as a very promising editor that reminds me the good old NWN2 Toolset, actually.

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It's your taste and not Larian's.

Probably the only intelligent thing in your post above.

And I would love to see some arguments beside "you suck because what you think is stupid, so you have no right to talk about it.".

You know what I love about a good RPG ? It make you use your imagination.



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Cromcrom #482919 24/02/14 06:05 PM
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"omg guise give me bedder arguments while I insult u and come up with my own half baked ones that are perfect" -cromcrom

Why should we bother? The game is going to stay the way we want it to, and you can go inflate your ego with this futile nonsense. Hope you're mad about that, because you've been intolerable in your entire stay here.

YoungFreshNewbie #482920 24/02/14 06:18 PM
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Why should we bother?
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Hope you're mad about that
No, not really, I will mod the game if I can, and play something else if I can't. As you said, it's larian's stuff, not mine, I am just sharing ideas.


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YoungFreshNewbie #482921 24/02/14 06:28 PM
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Just my thoughts on respawns:

There are arguments pro respawns (world is more alive), there are arguments against respawns ("Omg, not again these two stupid level 3 orcs whom I have already fought 14 times...")... There are players who love grinding and respawns, there are players who just hate it - we can debate our preferences forever without coming to a conclusion.

There are games in which respawns work well and there are games in which they are just out of place. And I think, D:OS is one of the games in which respawns will hardly work. The reason for this is the following: One of the main elements of the combat system in D:OS is the interaction with the environment. Every encounter so far has been carefully designed and placed (including all the barrels, surfaces, crates to set afire, obstacles etc.). So, once the fight is over, the whole scenery will be changed (barrels are destroyed, crates are burnt down, surfaces modified, vaporized or created). If you put in just random respawns you have to sacrifice this whole mechanics of the interaction with the environment - and the random fights will/can become very boring indeed (just shooting or hitting in a turn-based manner without any strategy involved does not sound very appealing...). So, you can certainly add in random encounters into the game via modding, but I honestly doubt whether that can be done in a way that the fights do not become pretty boring and hence just a nuisance...

Elwyn #482923 24/02/14 06:44 PM
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Beware my perverted mind... Are you saying that basic fights are boring in DOS, and only interactions with environment make it interesting ? This is serious accusation...
(well, erm, that is what I think, but well...)

and BTW, having explosive or poisonous barrels scattered all over the place sounds "weird" sometimes. Anyways, Larian stuff.

Whatever, you definitely have a point I think, indeed, I am genuinely curious about how random spawn and random movement of critters in dedicated areas ("hunting ground"; "deep forest"; "orc-foraging area"), if such features are moddable, of course, would fit in a turn based game, because the mods I created were using realtime engines. Another modding challenge could be to make those random fights interesting and somewhat "balanced", environment wise. Really really curious if the players could fall in some unprepared "ambush" or "trap" because of randomized spawn or movement of critters.

This is why I am looking forward the editor so bad :-(

Last edited by Cromcrom; 24/02/14 06:52 PM.

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Cromcrom #482933 24/02/14 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cromcrom
the good old NWN2 Toolset


Love that toolset! Yes, love, as in still mess with it from time to time. Hope this one (D:OS) is as easy and intuitive. I'll be busy for a long time.


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Cromcrom #482940 24/02/14 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Beware my perverted mind... Are you saying that basic fights are boring in DOS, and only interactions with environment make it interesting ? This is serious accusation...
(well, erm, that is what I think, but well...)



No, I do not say that only the interaction with the environment makes the fights interesting^^... However, it IS one of the components of the combat system. (I usually tend to use the environment quite a lot - in a suicidal manner I always leave Cyseal at level 2 with just Madora as a companion) An other aspect is also a careful placement of enemies (group size, enemy kinds and so on... for example undead mages are always at the back of the enemy group if you go through Cyseal gates) Can the enemies be placed via a random generator so that the fights are still strategic without becoming too repetitive? I am not quite sure about it... However, I do not have much experience with modding, so please, correct me if I am wrong...

Elwyn #482943 24/02/14 10:14 PM
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@Otaku Hanzo OMG yes, I spend hundreds (thousands?) of hours modding NWN2. Sleepless nights, headaches, loved it ^^. My best mod and modding memory, I really created a multiplayer "PW" to my liking, and shared it with others. One ot the best gaming/creative moment of my life. I really don't know if I would be able to invest as much energy as I did, but DOS and its editor look so promising I really want to be able to do this.
For what I have seen, the DOS editor looks like a clone of the Toolset, hopefully with current days and lessons learnt improvements, so it will blast everythings.
Yeah, once the editor is released, I don't think I will come here anymore acting like I do, because I hopefully will be busy creating what I am talking about, instead of being so frustrated just to be able to talk/argue about it...
I also really hope Larian set up an editor forum. Hopefully when they have time.

@Elwyn
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Can the enemies be placed via a random generator so that the fights are still strategic without becoming too repetitive? I am not quite sure about it...
Neither am I. Can't wait to try it, tho. Maybe spawning some kind of "patrols", or giving special powers to custom made monsters. Use of traps could be fun. One of the feature in random spawn and movement could be that while you are fighting, some monsters "hear the sounds", and spawn/appear/come closer to join the fight, resulting in some unexpected reinforcements for the monsters, coming from the back, the side, or whatever. Only a matter of imagination and editor capacity. Or once you start a fight with some monsters, it could randomly spawn traps the player could fall into to simulate an ambush. Again, a matter of imagination and editor capacity.
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However, I do not have much experience with modding, so please, correct me if I am wrong...
Although I think I can honestly say I do have quite some experience with modding, and I modded everythings I am talking about in some other games (again, NWN2, mount and blade warband, and Legend of grimrock, to name my main modded games), I really can't tell nothing about modding DOS, as long as I can't put my greedy li'l' fingers on the editor. From what I have seen in the various videos, it seems really really powerfull, but I can't say much more, besides my fervent hopes of being able to craft the game world I am dreaming about, and offer it to play to the DOS community.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 24/02/14 10:16 PM.

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