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Cromcrom #488983 11/04/14 11:40 PM
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crazy




headbanging

Cromcrom #488984 11/04/14 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cromcrom

But even not going as far as adding a bunch of crafting/gathering/interaction skills, because the topic of this RPG is, so far, just about being source hunters, why can't there be some more interactions ? I am not (anymore) asking for complete systems, but what about some little "realism" here and then ? Ok, I have to "craft" pillows to get feathers. i might be wrong, maybe they fixed it in the beta, but what about "gathering" feathres from killing a hen ? Wool from a sheep ? Is it that hard ? I can already randomly find them in crates, wouldn't it make sense to find them on a more logical and natural support ?
However, ok, DoS is not about this. But I am really upset that such obvious things are not in the game.



As of now, you can for example get animal hides by killing boars in a fight. I cannot say anything about chickens, however, since they are damned hard to hit.

EDIT: I also got once raw meat by killing a boar. And now I remember that in Divine Divinity you could kill all kinds of hens, rabbits and so on to get raw meat. I assume that something like this will also be present in D:OS (as my boar example hints). We just have to wait until everything is in place and well balanced.

Last edited by Elwyn; 11/04/14 11:59 PM.
Cromcrom #488986 12/04/14 12:07 AM
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As of now, you can for example get animal hides by killing boars in a fight. I cannot say anything about chickens, however, since they are damned hard to hit.

Indeed, and it is nice. Makes sense. So they can do it. Now do it for every relevant things.

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We just have to wait until everything is in place and well balanced.

I had hopes for alpha, but this is beta. Less and less features will be added. Let's hope anyways.
But when the game is released, modding aside, it will be to late.


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RtM #488990 12/04/14 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RtM
crazy




headbanging

Nobody called you. Back to meditating ?


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Cromcrom #488991 12/04/14 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Now do it for every relevant things.

Are you assuming that this would take no time or effort to do, or that Larian has unlimited resources?

Raze #488992 12/04/14 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Now do it for every relevant things.

Are you assuming that this would take no time or effort to do, or that Larian has unlimited resources?


Actually, for the specific example he's talking about (animal drops), it should be a very easy change. They'd just need to have sheep drop wool, hens drop feathers, etc., similar to boars already dropping hides. It would make sense.

For the other things, you're right - most of those are (unfortunately or not) too much to expect at this stage.

Cromcrom #488993 12/04/14 12:40 AM
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Notice I didn't say for EVERY things. Only relevant things. That player would probably expect to have result from interacting with. It is done for fishing racks, some flowers, some animals, some log piles. Finish it for the other stuff, if it is not done already.

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Are you assuming that this would take no time or effort to do, or that Larian has unlimited resources?
What I am assuming is that Larian created a strong RPG engine that allows to easily change such obvious things as loot/drops, which are an important part of any RPG, IMHO (because of course, some people will prove me wrong, and that loot/drops is absolutely irrelevant in a decent RPG for most players...).
My first disappointment with DoS came when I first tried to interact with the fishing nets on the beach. Nothing. It was a terrible desillusion, and I knew something was wrong, and maybe it wasn't the interactive and "deep" RPG I had expected.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 12/04/14 12:50 AM.

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Cromcrom #488996 12/04/14 12:48 AM
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And relevant things are things you find important right?
The things you expect the game to do... but others might not, but since it's you expecting it, well, they better make it for you.

How much money did you give Larian at Kickstarter you think they are your bi***?

EDIT @ Mikus;
Except if all animals are internally listed as 'animal' and the hides and meat are bound to that. They would need to add additional sub-categories for all different animals types then, and I assume you agree with me that that *would* be a lot of work? Or add all those items to all animals manually, and make absolute sure you cannot pickpocket them (I recall a fanpatch of Baldur's Gate fixing pickpocketing scalps and heads(!)).
So, no, it won't be easy by default.

Last edited by Hassat Hunter; 12/04/14 12:51 AM.
Cromcrom #488998 12/04/14 01:02 AM
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And relevant things are things you find important right?

No. Relevant things are obvious things that a player (an average one like me) would expect to have specific results when interacting with it, in a somewhat "realistic", even if fantasy, world. Long and tired sentence to say appropriate loot/drop from already interactable things.

And you know, I am assuming that Larian are grown enough not to be my bitches. Lol. And I am also assuming they chose that hard indie way because they want to do whatever they want, whatever be the amount of money you give them. Actually, they sadly proved this last point...

I could conceive they would have to go through each placeable in game to change the on_death or on_destroyed scripts or events or whatever, if Dos was their first RPG, and they had no experience about making RPGs. But It can't be. So I am assuming it is not that hard, but there are so many bugs to fix (what, 10 pages now ?) that they might sadly have better things to do.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 12/04/14 01:11 AM.

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Cromcrom #489001 12/04/14 01:24 AM
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A little last one before going to bed:
I am worried DOS could be a niche RPG, that only pleases hardcore co op players. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.


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Cromcrom #489002 12/04/14 01:28 AM
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It's very funny you keep talking about me being fanboy, and how I gave them so much money. When I haven't spend a dime on this game yet, and only play the Beta due to a key I got.
There goes that argument.

For "the avarage gamer will notice it" it's never been mentioned here or Steam as far as I can see (of course I only started checking after the Beta's release). No one says "But what about Wisdom?" The "avarage gamer" also doesn't really have plans to use the editor.
Heck, the "avarage gamer" asks for the game to be easier and questmarkers or ! above questgivers to be added. Obviously #2 is not going to happen. The "avarage gamer" gets lost on where to exit Cyseal since they aren't used to this freedom. The "avarage gamer" wants more guidance. You want the opposite. Hence, you're anything but "the avarage gamer"
And neither am I nor most regulars in this forum. I suppose the best bet to look for them is the Steam Forums of people who think they a buy Diablo III clone and then complain.

If a gamer sees an object isn't interactable... most really don't go and try do something with it.
Now, to answer some questions from the previous page...

Sure, go ahead and link your mods. If you want to use them as some kind of proof or explenation you surely cannot expect us to go out and have to search for them, right?
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Then why giving talents the name of stats ? Why 5 physical and one mental attributes ?

I don't understand this. Which talents? What is perception if not a mental ability? Since all 6 stats have to do with combat (all non-combat is in the abilities) what's the problem with 'physical' and 'mental' which isn't even distinguished, anoted or well... present?
It's like saying 'there are 25 non-animal talents, but only one animal talent. Why? Such a bad design...' but the only person who makes any destinction in the first place is you.
Charisma IS in, just on a different place, since it has no use in the stats (and rightly so) for this particular game. Why is that an issue. This isn't D&D. Stop expecting D&D stats and functionality.

As I already said, but you didn't read, your PC can sleep on a bed. It's already in. Why keep asking for a function that's already in?
It's quite useless (well, it can heal, but mostly there are chairs nearby doing the same) but it's there. Must make you a happy camper in the 'add useless stuff in 'cause they obviously have nothing better to do. I see no bugs here! No systems actually in need of adjustment. Better all go to the fishing nets!'

So cycles are a waste of time since they make the world feel alive, but other less obvious functions aren't since, well, you got me there. If I was going to make the world more alive I would probably prefer the way most people will notice it rather than a handfull, but apparently, that's not your design document.

I went into this game expecting the co-op and turnbased to be a serious drain on the game. I was expecting despite promises of good old school gameplay the modern stuff would raise it head somehow. That it was SO much fun to actually play, blew me out of the water. Like I said, I haven't spend a single euro on this game yet, and went into it semi-blind, and got blown away with just how much fun it was playing an old school type RPG in this day and age. They didn't make me make all these posts since I was financially or emotionally invested in this game, far from. But playing it, I just fell in love with it, and now just can't wait to purchase it after the beta is done and play it completely. I want to help make it the best as possible. I want the game to be a major success and old-school to become popular amongst developers to grant to us. That more developers dare to undo the foundation build in modern games, with questmarkers, and few dialogue options, and treat us again as adults, rather than kids that need candy ever 1 minute just to keep playing the game.

EDIT:
Yup, nothing says hardcore and niche like not getting whool when killing sheep or using a fishing net. That's totally in all casual mainstream games after all. It's what defines them, their interactivity.

Oh, wait... ...

Last edited by Hassat Hunter; 12/04/14 01:31 AM.
Cromcrom #489016 12/04/14 06:38 AM
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Well, I probably didn't make myself clear, because half your wall is out of target. However:
Average player: ok, this is really an assumption. But let's be carefull and not consider the 50 forumers here to represent the majority of the players. People here are activally participating because they want to invest time into the beta and make the game better, like you, which is fine. But beware. Old school hardcore gamers might not be the majority of players.

Rest in bed: Ok, I was aware of the chairs and bench, but not the beds. Very good news. However, I wish the system had something else beside Hit points to recover, so "rest" was different from "heal". Another proof of how shallow the system is. But it's ok, I will get over it. Probably add a "stamina" variable, and maybe "hunger"/ "thirst", but those need to be very well done, because it can be tricky, and, as Dr Koin pointed out, "boring".

Mods: I already arrogantly linked my mods, and won't do it anymore, especially for someone like you.

System is perfect as it is. Live it be. That you can't understand that maybe someone wants to define his character beyond strength, dexterity, constitution, is not my problem.
If you can't understand that "eye", "ears" are physical organs (perception), opposed to "feeling", "willpower", "wits", "charisma" are not is not my problem. You could tell me that perception can also be used to perceive feelings and such. So how perception is used ? Could that be made more clear ? Couldn"t it deserve a proper stat. That this unbalance leads to attributes point spending flaws, overpowered char dev in some case, and underpower in some other case, because attributes and abilities don't share the same pool, is your problem. But well, source hunters are fighters mostly (only ?), so it might not be that bad...

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Yup, nothing says hardcore and niche like not getting whool when killing sheep or using a fishing net. That's totally in all casual mainstream games after all. It's what defines them, their interactivity.

Well, nothing says the fishing racks should be interactable and give fish, but they do. Boars give meat and skin but they do. Cups can be filled, but they do.
So when you get into this level of details, other ones are expected, but not found. And this is disappointing.

By saying hardcore and niche, as was more thinking of the "freedom", lack of indications, weird char development, and such, that could be very scary for some (most?) players. And not because you don't worry and love hardcore feeling means everybody will. I am scared people might deem it repulsive, because some already do, that's all.

I am also worried players could buy this game expecting the next Ultima. I think expectations should be low, and full of good surprises, instead of high, with lots of deceptions. Just saying.

And any chance to have henchmen or henchanimals (not fully fledged companions, some cannon fodder henchmen) feedback ? This can be great world/deepest interactions stuff too, and Larian said they would be in. I haven't read anything about it, so I am a little worried, unless it is a perfect no beta required feature/system.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 12/04/14 06:45 AM.

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Cromcrom #489026 12/04/14 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Endre
There is an important thing regarding this:
The project DIDN'T reach the 1 million stretch goal! Everyone was happy as Swen told us they want to implement it even then.

Well, Larian might not reached the goal on Kickstarter ONLY but in the sum of a money collections (paypal donations) they DID reach the 1$ million stretch goal.

So I think its a very fair process if backers / customers complain about that this mayor stretch goal has been kicked. Especially if a company argues like it has a publisher sitting in the neck and is forcing them to kick the game out of the door. I thought that's exactly one of the reasons WHY (game) companies USE kickstarter these days. No shitty publisher telling them when and what they have to do.

Originally Posted by Cromcrom
I am also worried players could buy this game expecting the next Ultima. I think expectations should be low, and full of good surprises, instead of high, with lots of deceptions. Just saying.

Sadly, I have to agree here. From the today's point of view it's easy to say that the expectations, especially in matter of all the huge amount of canceled features regarding all kinds of world simulation aspects (NPC schedules for example) can't be fullfilled.

If you're new to the game, hear the first time the name Divinity Original Sin, do a quick look on some videos showcasing the game you think: hey it looks really Ultima like, or: this remembers me of Ultima. I think we all agree here.

But if you do a much deeper look, spending like 50 hours into the (alpha / beta) game already, you quickly realize that (maybe your own) expectations were too high and it's definitively not in the same league as Ultima in terms of world simulations / feeling. Divinity does, what I would call, "basic approaches". It's not consequently done to the end. As I said before: the game is a rough, edgey diamond now, far from finish. It could be a pink star (most prized diamond in the world) if you spend more time and don't RUSH it out of the door with basic approaches.

Let me add one thing: if you look back TODAY to the blog entry Swen wrote about how much the game will be similiar to one of his favorite games Ultima VII, you realize that clearly the wish was there back during the development but not, have to say it again, consequently done to the end.

I know, I might sound like a smartass...it's always easier to analyse decisions at a much later point from different perspectives. I'm aware you have to take at a special point decisions.

Do I enjoy the game? Probably, Steam shows like 50 hours for Divinity Original Sin.

Cromcrom #489031 12/04/14 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Cromcrom
If you can't understand that "eye", "ears" are physical organs (perception),

If sight and hearing were all that perception was, then two people seeing the same situation from the same vantage point would perceive it identically...


Originally Posted by Cromcrom
So when you get into this level of details, other ones are expected, but not found. And this is disappointing.

And yet there has to be a limit somewhere. And when features of the wish list start getting cut (like shape shifting spells), it means not too many more on the 'nice to have list' are going to be added.


Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Larian said they would be in.

No, they said non-human henchmen were possible, not that they would add them (and they wouldn't be adding them). If shapeshifting is out, Larian isn't going to be developing specialized skill and stat systems appropriate for animals, etc. Mods will presumably at least add cosmetic non-human henchmen; more ambitions ones may design appropriate spells and equipment, etc.

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If sight and hearing were all that perception was, then two people seeing the same situation from the same vantage point would perceive it identically...

Ok, let's say perception is both mental and physical. Thats still gives us two mental/mind/brain/social stats against 5 "physical" stats to try to define the basics of our characters. Still unbalanced. But OK, DOS is not about being balanced, it is getting pretty obvious, from feedbacks alone...

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And yet there has to be a limit somewhere.

Absolutely. This is a nice "philosophical" subject btw, to which extend make an RPG realistic ? The proper balance between realism, simulation, "fun" ?
Anyways, you are definitely right. Don't add anything. Just make sure that what exists makes sense, will be very nice. And for the most part, we are almost there.



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Cromcrom #489037 12/04/14 09:46 AM
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I am starting to consider that this game went into a major development shift, and from "interactive-quite realistic" focused to "free-Coop" focused, and this is why I am so uneasy about it.
I really think "free-coop" can be amazing, and on this path, Larian seems to be doing and incredible job, and it could indeed be a milestone. It is the "interactive-quite realistic" shift that is really bugging me.
If this happens to be true, this would be very intersting to know the "history" behing this.


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Cromcrom #489053 12/04/14 10:59 AM
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I can't recall ever hearing anything but that it would be co-op. That was in from the original premises. It's a little hard to shift something that was in there from the start. There's no major shift, you just seem to have some very high expectations, expectations that cannot be done on D:OS budget as it appears.
I don't think any RPG in the last 15 year gave a damn about a balance of realistic or simulation.

Ehm, your calculations are off, there being 6 stats nd all. That makes 4-2. Hey, that's the same as D&D. Unless one points charisma (being pretty) as mental skill, lol!
Unlike D&D however skills and stats aren't linked. And apparently that abhors you. Why? It does allow the player to use their skills more freely since you aren't bound to getting penalties for not raising stats you never wanted to have in the first place. And unlike D&D, you don't need to put points in intelligence to get the most out of skills (since most are linked to said stat). How is that a bad thing? Fits perfectly in a class-less system, but apparently you have an issue with it.

@ Nemesis; There is only so many times you can delay a game before money runs out. And unlike with a publisher, where they can simply ask for more money to add feature X, and get a potential yes, that's not the case for a crowd-funded project. The money is the money, and if it's up, it's up. It's in many cases harsher for developers than a publisher can be.
People think because of Kickstarter, because of no publisher, developers can wait as long as they want to finish their games. People often overlook that this costs a bunch of money, because you need to pay your employees. And thus, no, that's not exactly a freedom they enjoy. They may get some income out of Early Access on Steam, but we all know the majority of income will be once the game is done and sold 'for real'.

Although I have to admit I come from a background playing Baldur's Gate and similar D&D games, and never played the famous Ultima's. Maybe that makes me easy to please, since it's just so much better than modern RPG's, and the few attempts I saw at NPC cycles (The Witcher) were not that good at best.

@ Cromcrom; The game was never intended to please the Majority of players. If so, they never would go old-school, and instead went something modern, with copious amounts of handholding, ego-stroking, and enemies that are so simple even my mother could defeat them since difficulty might make people stop playing. Heck, if they wanted the majority, they shouldn't make RPGs in the first place. Or PC-only.
Then again, Kickstarters like Torment, Project Eternity and Wastelands2 (all around 4 million each) show there's definitely a market for games like these. It would be quite the mistake to addapt the game for the 'majority', the ones who want it to play like Diablo III.

I've seen several hunger/sleep systems, and again, they indeed were very annoying. If 'deep' is the same as 'irritating and obnoxious' then I would agree, depth is missing. But that's what the modding tools are for, and then people who would want to find beds to rest or eat food to survive could install that mod if they want and make their own little 'hardcore game'.

There's a single link in this thread, and it leads to another thread on this forum, so no, no modlinks here.
To 'define' your character are abilities and talents. I'm not quite sure why the epitable of character design and definition is from stats only. There's more than that. Even in D&D stats don't really 'define' a character in the slightest. They were just there to help him or her make the best out of his or her combat abilities, just like here, actually. Of course they bound them to skills, making it a bit more complex (and forced on what skills you could or should take really), but here, they don't make that similar mistake.
Also, how is 'feeling' even a stat. What's it supposed to do? How is perception 'not a proper stat'... what the hell is that even? I don't know.
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That this unbalance leads to attributes point spending flaws

What does this even mean? Because you aren't forced to place points in a stat for abilities, this is 'unbalance' or 'broken' Or what? I have no clue.
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because attributes and abilities don't share the same pool, is your problem

So, it must be like Drakensang, where you have one XP pool, and stats take 100x the cost of skills, but you use the same points?
While it works (no, not really) for The Dark Eye might not make it perfect for this game. It doesn't even work this way in D&D. And unlike D&D this is a classless system, forcing people upon certain abilities like you want is not the design goal. As soon as you start understanding that, probable the better it gets. This ISN'T D&D.
Everyone can be a sneaky lockpicker, not just a 'thief', everyone can take upon a bow, not just a ranger. Someone might want to combine melee and magic, it's perfectly possible. So, what's the problem. I don't see any, but you do. And somehow it's related to stats, and I'm not seeing it how much I look at it from every angle.

What does 'freedom' even mean. Is every game not open-world like Skyrim suddenly hardcore now. Since linear story development and open-world exploration are 2 completely different ideas where hardcore or casual has nothing to do with in the end. I can agree the lack of questmarkers is "hardcore" (and thank the lords for that, stupid questmarkers), and it's replaced by READING INSTRUCTIONS (super-duper hardcore dude, reading!) The game has some balance issues at the moment, yes (what game doesn't), but to call it 'weird character development' goes a bit beyond me. I would more ascertain that for Oblivion, where staying lvl 1 always was the best, and improving levels were severly punished. I call that weird development. What's weird here?
Yes, it's scary. Having to read again in RPG's. Having to use your brains again in RPG's. Having to thiink again in RPG's. It's sure is scary for many players, but with Kickstarter that seems the way it's going to be... and I LOVE IT. If people dislike reading or using their nogging then RPG's aren't for them in the first place, and I would be glad if they can themselves realise that, instead of developers making RPG's so extremely lite and a betrayal of themselves to suit to players who don't even like RPG's.
The only one really repulsed so far is you. On Steam I can see some people being confused ("I was expecting Diablo!") but that's not really an error with the game itself. Aside from that it's mostly bugrelated questions and concerns which can cause confusion. Confusion, not repulsion. But feel free to point me at one SINGLE other person who seem 'repulsed' like you.

Cromcrom #489062 12/04/14 11:53 AM
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Cromcrom - in your last couple posts, it's like you're Jekyll. He makes a helluva lot more sense than your Hyde.

As for the broader discussion, I'm another who probably set his expectations for D:OS in terms of "game world immersion" way too high. Specifically, I've posted elsewhere about things like "Why are antlers found in barrels outside the tavern, instead of on a deer?," or "Why can I shoot fireballs at 'unowned' crates or at the ground right next to a citizen, without having them react?," or "Why can I slaughter everyone in the marketplace, but not get accosted by a guard standing across the street?" You get the idea.

But as already mentioned by Raze, Hassat Hunter, and many others on the forums, we all need to keep in mind that Larian's inability to add these features - or if not these, others they themselves clearly wanted, like NPC schedules - into the final game does not prove the existence of a sinister conspiracy to deceive and defraud their Kickstarter and other backers. Rather, I actually believe their simple explanation that they bit off more than they could chew, and had to rein in "feature creep" due to economic reality. Yes, this time around, they don't have a publisher breathing down their necks - but a team of 50+ full-time employees needs to eat, and every day they're not selling full versions of the game to a wider audience puts that much more strain on their resources.

So do I hope in an ideal world they're able to cram a bunch more features and fixes into the final product, and somehow also integrate and properly bug-test the related systems? Sure. Do I think it's going to happen at this point? No. These discussions are interesting (and may even be relevant to Larian's next game, if not this one), but bottom line: we all (myself included) need to temper our expectations with a little dose of reality.

And oh yeah, I've logged 44 hours in Steam playing the alpha/beta. So playing D:OS has not exactly been a painful experience. smile

Cromcrom #489065 12/04/14 12:14 PM
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Larian started doing custom loot tables for everything, but it became too complex to balance.

NPC AI is still being worked on. Witnesses ignoring murder if you can kill someone without them calling for help is not the intended behaviour.

Raze #489066 12/04/14 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Raze

Larian started doing custom loot tables for everything, but it became too complex to balance.


Yeah, I was told that in another thread, and I understand the reasoning. Too bad, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by Raze

NPC AI is still being worked on. Witnesses ignoring murder if you can kill someone without them calling for help is not the intended behaviour.


Good, thanks.

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