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because as it stands this game is severely imbalanced[i][/i][u][/u] - at least for melee characters.

Ran a rogue and witch for a few hours and just kept crushed repeatedly. Ok, now it's a cleric and knight for the last few hours - crushed repeatedly.

Why does every encounter - particularly those just outside of town - i.e. the starting area. have to have at least half a dozen mobs? All several levels higher than you? That's *really* bad encounter design. Really bad!

And wtf was that scheisse up by the church with the 3 dozen or so exploding skeletons? That sort of shit isn't funny, it's annoying and angering. Try to go around them? Walk into a lava trap...insta death. Come on. Are the designers new to the whole RPG thing?

Yes, it's beta, but most of these sorts of issues should be locked down or close to it by now. As it stands, playing melee characters atm is utterly useless and an exercise in masochism.

And from what I've seen playing a pair of mages makes it way to easy so far - I'll be trying that next. So you have your work cut out for you.

Why is there no blacksmith in town for melee chars to get better gear and do repairs? Where are the various hirelings that compliment characters - e.g. obviously 2 melee types would want to hire a mage to help them and/or a rogue at some point.

I hope we see some MAJOR improvements all around in these areas or I'm going to be a very angry camper. However, I will give you guys the benefit of the doubt...for now.



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I had the exact same frustration.
I thinbk You can take the lone wolf talent, that makes your character much more powerfull, at the expanse of recruting companions.
You can find powerfull companions (more powerfull than your melee "heroes"...) at the inn (not obvious, already reported a long time ago...), and maybe some other places.

All this should make the game easier.

However, reports are either "too easy", or "too hard". Balance is gonna be a headache for the devs...

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Yes, it's beta, but most of these sorts of issues should be locked down or close to it by now.

Still fixing shitloads of bugs.

A blacksmith ? Wouldn't that "make sense" in a legionnary camp ? that Cyseleans fishermen don't need blacksmith, well, ok. But legionnaries ?

Anyways, don't expect to much of these stuffs in good ol' Cyseal.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 12/04/14 07:58 AM.

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Thanks, I just learned that there are hirelings. Of course that doesn't help for anyone who doesn't explore every inch of town, find them, talk to them, hire them. This is just another example of work needed. Starting out while people lean what's what and where's where there always needs to be a little hand-holding. And it most definitely should never be dependent on creating the "right" builds to start off.



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Fully agree. I proposed every common knowledge place in town should be marked, to make navigating easier. Of course, all hardcore fans told me I was a fool, that it would be no fun, hand holding is for freaking brainless kids, spoils whatever blah blah blah. However, Larian did add some marks, which was a nice improvment, although to few (because not all common knowledge places were marked), IMHO.
Marking the inn, the cemetary, and other common knowledge places seems way to much. You know, not the hidden keys, just common knowledge places.
But hey, who needs map marking when you have postsigns...
God that pisses me.


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I think it's pretty hard to find the right balance between pre-defined map marks and doing your own ones.

A suggestions would be Larian is doing many map marks, especially those which deal with quests, and adding an option to completely enable/disable them for the other group (exploration) of players. That way everyone will be happy.

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Indeed.
I would have gone the citizen dialogue option, like.
PC: "I am new in town, could you give me some precise indications as to where I can find some important buildings in town ?"
NPC: "Sure ! Do you mind if I mark your map..."
PC "Yes - No".

And that would give something interesting and usefull to say, even if only once, for the basic citizens, and make it sort of an option, and add some more "world interaction" détails, and make sense. Because you can ask a freaking wall of text to citizens, but not your way around. "Problem solved". Or not.


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I mean adding a switch to the options menu of the game, maybe with a checkbox menu which allows the player to toggle which kind of map marks information she/he wants to see and which not.

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Ehm, the inn is marked on the map...
As soon as you visit a place it gets marked on your map.

And going out without companions can only really be blamed on the player. Why go outside when you haven't even explored the whole city.
As for all enemies above you, try going out of the city topwest gate, or the hole in the graveyard...

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As soon as you visit a place it gets marked on your map.
The issue here is to find the place, not mark it once you know where it is. I know finding the damn inn might sound obvious for You Almighty, that players are lazy, hand holding sucks, blah blah... However, some players are still reporting this.


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And going out without companions can only really be blamed on the player. Why go outside when you haven't even explored the whole city.
Thanks for the good laugh, this is excellent, really ^^ Just in case, does "open world" mean anything to you ?
Make the doors be blocked, until a quest is done or a level reached. Could make sense in an undead/orcs besieged city...

I am freaking fed up with these "could make sense" stuff, godammit.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 12/04/14 10:34 AM.

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I think what he is wanting is an actual way to tell that an NPC might be a possible companion. This doesn't need to be a marker, it is a question of visual design of the scene a character stands in and choosing the logical locations where you may find companions (also, good design in games... followers auto-initiating dialog when you come near when they are in a crowded scene or if they don't do that, they need to be visually interesting characters that look vastly different to normal NPC's and are easy to tell apart). And many scenes in D:OS are extremely cluttered and very occluded with stuff in default camera view. (Major problem, mouse pointer should make visible what the hell we are hovering about....) And the range the camera / character "cuts into" scenery blocking the view needs to be increased as well.

The INN is extremely odd designed for ease-of-use, most characters are occluded unless you walk straight into them, you can't talk to the barkeep because the bar is blocking view and clicking etc. I can't believe I am saying this, but there is too much detail... that is IN THE WAY ,p
The Major house.... Like who... seriously, looks for a *demon hunter* in a library?

And so on.....

I think we wouldn't need markers anywhere aside from major locations (healing, trading, inn) if the town weren't so visually confusing and occluded by stuff. The houses should be further apart and as a golden rule, there should never be an item placed that is not visible in default camera view.

To sum up what I am talking about. I think D:OS is very, VERY, visually, confusing. There is no clear visibility of important structures, items or characters, you can completely pass by MAJOR things if you don't literally walk there yourself to make clutter "disappear" and hover over everything in that area while ALTing constantly. NPC's are easy to miss too.

Mhhh... many lessons to take to heart for modders who want to create their own stories with the editor...

The odd camera angle / high angle of view we have coupled with low zoom levels makes it visually too confusing imo. Isometric 2.5D is still superior, or if not that, then full 3D with free-view camera. NWN style.

Last edited by eRe4s3r; 12/04/14 10:32 AM.
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I can agree with many of these points, eRe4s3r.
I remember talking to the barkeep and seeing only the bar top, or talking to Esmeralda and my entire view was blocked too.

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The inn markers is slightly bugged (it may dissapear from time to time).
I've heard of open-world. THIS GAME ISN'T OPEN-WORLD.
And even in open-world games like Skyrim it makes sense to explore an entire city if you find it before leaving.
How's that not common knowledge anymore. You complain about all the fighting one has to do, and then ignore the entire city to go fight as soon as possible.
I'm so confused by all of this...

(Not to mention the murder quest actually SENDS you to the inn. But you have issues finding it, and it 'makes sense' it's outside the city barriers? Wait... what?)

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Actually, it is very well possible to leave the town without exploring at all right after you enter it (with or without picking up the companions). So far, I have almost 50 hours on Steam and have not done a single quest yet. The fights might be a little bit on a hard side, but if anything else fails the guards at the town gates are usually pretty helpful if you lure the foes to them.

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THIS GAME ISN'T OPEN-WORLD.

No it is not. It is a VAST open world.
Quoting early access:
"Become part of a reactive, living and vast open world."
Tell Larian, not me.

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You complain about all the fighting one has to do, and then ignore the entire city to go fight as soon as possible.

Not go fight, go explore. However, falling on undeads packs immediately, almost without warning. However, I already did this "demonstration", that might have paved the way to the "lone Wolf" talent.


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@OP: Lot of balance work required indeed, which is probably not helped by the fact that most of the feedback on this forum is random crap like people fighting about level scaling, how you can't use the fishnets in Cyseal or the female model wearing high heels.

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Originally Posted by Glamour
@OP: Lot of balance work required indeed, which is probably not helped by the fact that most of the feedback on this forum is random crap like people fighting about level scaling, how you can't use the fishnets in Cyseal or the female model wearing high heels.


Quoted for truth !
Not to mention people reporting benches facing the wrong direction and stuff.

On the topic though : I often refer to Baldur's Gate when discussing D:OS features, and the fact that potential companions and hirelings aren't displayed in a different fashion is clearly a non issue. In BG, companions weren't really standing out either. And in both BG and D:OS, if you choose not to speak to everyone, well, it just falls to logic that you aren't going to find who is willing to share a quest with you, or even follow you.

About the fact mobs outside of the very first town are "several level higher than you", I really do not know what you're talking about. D:OS does you the courtesy of showing you the mobs level. If you run right into the charred area where creatures are level 7, with your level 2 hero, what do you expect ? Sometimes, sure, you didn't even saw the creatures before the fight is started : well either flee, die, or win.
Overall this is back to discussing the benefit of autoscaling vs handplaced/fixed creatures. I'd like to advise you to play Migh and Magic X : legacy, which is a dungeon crawler RPG featuring handplaced, fixed level encounters. Except you do not have any hints at what their levels are. And you just die repeatedly trying to find the intended path. Let me assure you that D:OS is far more forgiving than that, but the fixed level encounters still act as "do not go there yet" or "you can go there" indicators.

Blacksmith in town, well, actually, there was one. You'd just have to go into a particular cellar and read the books you find there. SURE, gameplay wise, there aren't any REAL blacksmiths left in the town, but there WAS one laugh Ok that was nitpicking of me.

And again, though, I really do not understand why people would expect exploration in a fantasy RPG to be a field trip. I mean, the town is literally besieged by undead and orcs, what would you expect? To just walk the road and not be bothered because you want to bring back pictures of the famous Cyseal lighthouse?
In games such as D:OS, exploring IS fighting. Now if everything was good and there wasn't the undead or orcs matters, well I'd be annoyed to have to fight every two steps I take. But right now it's like thinking you can go carelessly walk into a minefield and be back home with all your limbs ( at best ).


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Originally Posted by Dr Koin


In BG, companions weren't really standing out either.


Eh? All companions in BG2 had a quest line attached, some major, some minor, some EPIC even (Nalia quest is certainly not just a 20minute romp) and even leads you to a player home if you are playing it with certain classes. Cern quest has an entire 5+ hr druidic plot line attached... etc. etc. etc.

Circus (Aerie) is even introduced to you when you exit the dungeon, and a young boy approaches you and asks you to rescue his mother to further announce that this might be a quest player should be doing. So how can you possible say they didn't stand out?

Every single companion in BG2 had a reason of existence and purpose and place. None of them (aside from your starting crew) were simple pick-me-ups. And all of them had quests attached. Some even very extensive ones.

Now don't get me wrong. BG2 is the pinnacle of RPG and D:OS does not have the funds to ever approach it... but companions can be announced and linked to the world they are in. In D:OS companions are simple pick-me-ups that follow you nearly automatically. And some of them are hidden out of the way. In places you may have no reason to ever enter (library)

So this makes that a very strong contrast between D:OS and BG2 imo.... companions most certainly stood out in BG2. All of them had unique sprites, armor or coloration for one... all of them had unique quests.

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Originally Posted by eRe4s3r
Originally Posted by Dr Koin


In BG, companions weren't really standing out either.


Eh? All companions in BG2 had a quest line attached, some major, some minor, some EPIC even (Nalia quest is certainly not just a 20minute romp) and even leads you to a player home if you are playing it with certain classes. Cern quest has an entire 5+ hr druidic plot line attached... etc. etc. etc.

Circus (Aerie) is even introduced to you when you exit the dungeon, and a young boy approaches you and asks you to rescue his mother to further announce that this might be a quest player should be doing. So how can you possible say they didn't stand out?

Every single companion in BG2 had a reason of existence and purpose and place. None of them (aside from your starting crew) were simple pick-me-ups. And all of them had quests attached. Some even very extensive ones.


Some stood out a bit more, some not as much. The thing was most of them were kindda shoved in your face like any other quest giver, up until the point you realized you could ask them to join. They were both designed to be companions and quest givers, the player's choice as to what they would be.

I think Dr Koin was refering to the first BG though. I know for a fact he never really played BG2, he couldn't handle it.


Originally Posted by eRe4s3r

Now don't get me wrong. BG2 is the pinnacle of RPG and D:OS does not have the funds to ever approach it...


I disagree, and boy did I love BG2 but it had huge flaws that reminiscing tend to overlook, the first one being the most of idiotic instant gameover if your main character got knocked out, the second one being droping you off in the capital city straight off the bat with just a vague to inexistant notion of what was going on. Now get out there and be somebody. Get murdered along the way. A lot. The original Fallout handled that in a much better way.

D:OS can do great with the budget it has. Most of it will come from the writing and the quest design. DII: DKS was amazing in both fields, and Jake's murder investigation is a nice piece of work. I would argue I'm a little disappointed that you can't actually fail to solve the murder, but that's mostly due to the fact that it is related to the main quest.

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No, I actually meant, they weren't standing out VISUAL wise.
Except for those that indeed were pressed unto you, companions had to be talked to as if they were common NPCs to actually find out they were companions. Had some of them not been forced-introduced to you, you would have missed them by not exploring and talking to people you met.

Other than that, yes, every companions in BG had their own quest, personnality, etc. I'm quite sure Madora, Jahan, and every other companions will, too. Hirelings, on the other hand, won't. Which is what will draw the line between a "companion" and a "hireling" in D:OS.

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So this makes that a very strong contrast between D:OS and BG2 imo.... companions most certainly stood out in BG2. All of them had unique sprites, armor or coloration for one... all of them had unique quests.


Sure they add a bit of a color change, but really it wasn't glaring. I mean, it's not like they had a big arrow above their head. Madora, as she looks in the game, stands out as much if not more than potential recruits were in BG1. It's almost impossible to miss her. Jahan on the other hand has been placed in a very small room that people MAY miss, but that's because they wouldn't explore the town enough. It's still a public place.

Last edited by Dr Koin; 12/04/14 02:53 PM.

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Ah then that is a good point. Visually you can't do much in a 2.5D isometric game that's sprite based. But I played BG2 often enough to maybe not judge this correctly anymore wink BG2 fostered exploration and talking to everyone I admit, but it also made that relatively hassle free. Thanks to the separate zones so you could explore 1 area pretty comprehensively.

Originally Posted by Maali

I disagree, and boy did I love BG2 but it had huge flaws that reminiscing tend to overlook, the first one being the most of idiotic instant gameover if your main character got knocked out, the second one being droping you off in the capital city straight off the bat with just a vague to inexistant notion of what was going on.


Are you talking about D:OS ? ;P Game ends if your 2 chars die. And you are dropped on a beach as source hunter with no notion what source magic even is. Or what a source hunter is. (Sorry, I don't mean to be snide, but that just jumped at me ;P)

Aside that, I think the "where the heck are we and what just happened" start of BG2 was a great change from the usual way RPG's started back then. And you did get to know what was going on fairly quickly, unless you got side-tracked (which indeed, can mean your death very quickly if you get side-tracked to the wrong quests ,p) That the game ends when your main-char died caused me great aggravation indeed.... it's even worse when you are the playing mage, and you cast time-stop and you meet the 1 guy in the game that's immune to that... oh joy ,p So don't think I am overlooking that ^^

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I agree that map notes and such should always be a feature that can be enabled/disabled. Hirelings should stand out. That and/or when you first meet someone like Arhu he should warn you not to venture outside of town - or do so at your own peril - before completing some stuff in town and mentioning that there are several adventurers looking to hire on, sort of thing. That sort of exposition is handy to say the least. I don't think autoscaling is required if the game if map layout and encounters are balanced to begin with. That's one of the things I loved about Fallout. I remember my first time playing through as a doctor with just the base combat skills and I managed to finish the game without ever upping them, and everything going into social and science skills instead. And yes, I really wish the map was fully rotatable ala NWN as the map viewing/angles and occlusion can be frustrating. Perhaps they need to double the size of the occlusion bubble.



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