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More slots is a very weak incentive to invest a lot of points into skill levels. Or not an incentive at all.

If i have diversified (which i always do since i like to play hybrid builds) - i gain many many different spells from each magic branch - element. Or many different skills from other ... martial skills. All these are the ones i like best, the most powerful and useful of all available.


But if i spend that many points (1 - 2 - 3 ... etc) into a single skill... all i get is 7 slots? I can just change any spell or skill in those slots as i please, more or less. Buying skill books is easy.

Which makes needing more slots quite unnecessary.

Especially because all skills and spells are not equally useful or good. There are several ones which i will never use.
And the choices are quite constrained all the same.


***


Some posters would want a return to the previous system - which is not possible.

I wouldn't - but i would like something to be added to the higher skill levels to make them more valuable, something that would create a better incentives for spending so much points into them - rather then almost none they have now.

I think that if these incentives are relatively smaller features and effects, it might be something that could be added in time for the full release.



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I think Larian said that they have already implemented a better improved system and will release it with the new update.

I agree that gaining just more slots when increasing the skill level is a very poor incentive - especially since you can unlearn spells. I have found out that my characters do not need to increase any skill beyond level 2.


Last edited by Elwyn; 28/05/14 05:59 PM.
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Honestly i think it should work like this... the base stat intelligence should affect the overall damage ouput of magic based spells/elemental damage.. and overall effectiveness of buffs debuffs...and the equipment you can equip with higher int... but the actuall skills you can use should be based on skill points put into those respective schools (higher level fire spell costs more into fire)... then have a perk maybe at 3 skill points spent in fire... a boost in fire damage or resistance.. or lower fire/water etc ap cost on those type spells.. or cooldowns.. something every so many skill points.. similar to way of.. but different..

In turn... Intelligence is general... what u can equip and overall damage with magic.
While skill points in schools are specific and control ap cost cooldowns and what spells you can use from said school along with school specific damage boosts.
Player level shouldn't even factor really.

Last edited by ynotndalton; 28/05/14 06:41 PM.
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In the global chat yesterday Lar said that more slots is actually a good incentive later in the game. Regarless, they are considering other enhancements based on ability level, but want to see how the changes in the next update work out first (the last update was only a partial implementation of their overhaul).

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Originally Posted by Raze

In the global chat yesterday Lar said that more slots is actually a good incentive later in the game. Regarless, they are considering other enhancements based on ability level, but want to see how the changes in the next update work out first (the last update was only a partial implementation of their overhaul).


Out of curiosity do we know the level cap in this game? I haven't been able to find mention of it but I haven't looked too hard. Many of the considerations us beta players have given the game are being done considering a top level of around 10.

Gameplay could be very different late game and we'd have no clue, lol.

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In the full game the end level may be about 20. That was what Larian was thinking during the kickstarter, though changes and additions since then may have effected that somewhat.

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good incentive later in the game

Im not so sure about that. Could be... but low level spells do scale with levels, and you still can unlearn and learn spells and skills with relative ease.

Quote
want to see how the changes in the next update work out first

As far as i understood that - main attributes will have bigger roles and effects on damage.

Which does sound good.


Originally Posted by ynotndalton
- the actuall skills you can use should be based on skill points put into those respective schools (higher level fire spell costs more into fire)... then have a perk maybe at 3 skill points spent in fire... a boost in fire damage or resistance.. or lower fire/water etc ap cost on those type spells.. or cooldowns.. something every so many skill points.. similar to way of.. but different..


I like this idea ynotndalton made.
Spells should be limited by requirement of the skill level. Not general level of the character.

So someone who has only one point of pyromancy could not learn the higher spells that someone with
3 or 5 points could.
A character with 1 point of expert marksman could not learn higher ranger skills.

How much and how many - thats for the devs to decide so its not too much.

Maybe, if this is leaning too much towards class system and specialization - you can make every character able to learn and use most spells and skills (if they have attributes for it) but they would cost more APs to use?

And have longer cooldowns?

Similar to how you can now use higher level weapons but for more APs?


Reduction in cooldowns at higher levels would also be a good mechanic. However small it may be.
It could be made to be some kind of spell like ability, or just an ability that lasts specific number of turns.

"Zen" - when going into zen trance the character can use all his skills faster.
All cooldowns reduced by 1 second - 1 turn. Lasts 2 turns at first, then 3 turns later on, etc, etc. - whatever.

I cant really suggest anything but very general numeric examples. But i trust the devs could shape it to be appropriate.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
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good incentive later in the game

Im not so sure about that. Could be... but low level spells do scale with levels, and you still can unlearn and learn spells and skills with relative ease.

Quote
want to see how the changes in the next update work out first

As far as i understood that - main attributes will have bigger roles and effects on damage.

Which does sound good.


Originally Posted by ynotndalton
- the actuall skills you can use should be based on skill points put into those respective schools (higher level fire spell costs more into fire)... then have a perk maybe at 3 skill points spent in fire... a boost in fire damage or resistance.. or lower fire/water etc ap cost on those type spells.. or cooldowns.. something every so many skill points.. similar to way of.. but different..


I like this idea ynotndalton made.
Spells should be limited by requirement of the skill level. Not general level of the character.

So someone who has only one point of pyromancy could not learn the higher spells that someone with
3 or 5 points could.
A character with 1 point of expert marksman could not learn higher ranger skills.

How much and how many - thats for the devs to decide so its not too much.

Maybe, if this is leaning too much towards class system and specialization - you can make every character able to learn and use most spells and skills (if they have attributes for it) but they would cost more APs to use?

And have longer cooldowns?

Similar to how you can now use higher level weapons but for more APs?


Reduction in cooldowns at higher levels would also be a good mechanic. However small it may be.
It could be made to be some kind of spell like ability, or just an ability that lasts specific number of turns.

"Zen" - when going into zen trance the character can use all his skills faster.
All cooldowns reduced by 1 second - 1 turn. Lasts 2 turns at first, then 3 turns later on, etc, etc. - whatever.

I cant really suggest anything but very general numeric examples. But i trust the devs could shape it to be appropriate.



It would still be classless i think just you either multi-class but with weaker jack of all trades mentality or you specialize or just dual role with more powerfull skills of said class.. they way it is now... crap i could have top spells in every school lol.. that isn't classless its almost like cheating.

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Originally Posted by ynotndalton

It would still be classless i think just you either multi-class but with weaker jack of all trades mentality or you specialize or just dual role with more powerfull skills of said class.. they way it is now... crap i could have top spells in every school lol.. that isn't classless its almost like cheating.


This is actually how I was hoping the system would work. I came to beta in the most recent update so I didn't really know how the old system worked. I figured this was the way they handled it.

If not, I really like the idea of certain spells being tied to certain levels of abilities. A character with 1 point in pyromancy probably shouldn't be able to summon a giant meteor. That seems strange in my mind.

I do like the flexibility the current system gives though.

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If the skills are going to be a major factor in spell effectiveness then Intelligence has to stop being a major factor, or the flexibility of character design takes a huge hit. At present, Str/Dex/Int drive skill power and the skill ranks allow for more skills of that type. It's not ideal for hybrid characters, but it works a whole lot better than making the skill ranks also power skills (as was the case in earlier versions) - you just don't have enough points to work with to make anything other than a pure/dedicated character type work under that earlier approach.

Talents based on skill ranks seem to be where they're heading instead - a lot of them now require (whatever) 5 when they used to be something like Bodybuilding 1 or had no prereq at all.

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We do need to see how this new system functions.

The above is just a general idea thrown in for consideration. As i said, some softer form of it can be invented, or something just similar to it.

Reducing cooldowns at level 3 and 5 could be a nice side effect measure, maybe. It wouldnt unbalance hybrid builds - which are the builds i play with.

It is true that right now, the attribute requirements make it impossible for a specialized build to have higher levels of skills and spells from other "schools". While it can the highest spells and skills from its own area of expertize.


Which hybrids cannot have.


That should be made a little bit stronger and more pronounced. Clearer to the players. During character creation and otherwise.

I would make character creation start from the blank state character as the only option in it.
But there would be a special tool tip button on the side, that when pressed would explain this basic consideration to the players in simple terms and lead them to the "preset examples".

The presentation in the character creation is what makes players think too much in terms of classes, actually.




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Originally Posted by JoeBart
Originally Posted by ynotndalton

It would still be classless i think just you either multi-class but with weaker jack of all trades mentality or you specialize or just dual role with more powerfull skills of said class.. they way it is now... crap i could have top spells in every school lol.. that isn't classless its almost like cheating.


This is actually how I was hoping the system would work. I came to beta in the most recent update so I didn't really know how the old system worked. I figured this was the way they handled it.

If not, I really like the idea of certain spells being tied to certain levels of abilities. A character with 1 point in pyromancy probably shouldn't be able to summon a giant meteor. That seems strange in my mind.

I do like the flexibility the current system gives though.


Ya this is the only problem i have with the game... how they handle skills and progression... so much better just to have base stats such as INT effect equipment and overall damage... and have skill points determine what level skills you can get and as in other games "speed" which you cast.. in this case the ap and cooldowns of those skills.

Last edited by ynotndalton; 29/05/14 02:12 PM.
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One thing i mentioned in the Ice thread would be a nice small addition to skill levels.


At lvl 1 you would create only small ice surfaces with any spell that can do it, at lvl 2 they would become bigger, lvl 3 even bigger - etc.

Same thing can be done for area of effect of fireballs, Starting as a very small explosion and then becoming bit bigger and bigger as you invest more points into Pyromancy skill.

Size of clouds that a ranger can create with arrows maybe?

Earth magic would be easy to adapt this way too.

As would master of arms various skills.


Not sure what can be done for witchcraft in this sense, since it doesnt have AoE spells or effects...right? But something similar can be done, surely.

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Another thing:


Spells are now given at level 1, 4, 7, and 10. which are the only level requirements.
Why not at other levels in between too? To make character progression more fluid? Fuller?

Several spells could be gained at level 5, 6 and 8 for example. Earth armor? Surely something like that could be given at lvl 5, with lower stats and then have it increase in power a little bit as you level up or invest more in Int ?

Some other early ones could be moved up to atleast third level - like spider summon.

Problem being that actually there isnt enough lvl 1 spells.... which leads me to the next suggestion, which is completely impossible at this stage of development but im still going to say it.


Instead of enabling three slots for skills and spells - why not enable only one at level one for any skill? Then two at lvl 2, then three slots at lvl 3? And so on.

- It would give a better, fuller sense of character progression.
- It would make investing extra points into each skill more valuable and rewarding.
- It would remove the problem of characters who invest only a single point into each skill easily ending up with 15 different skills and spells.

While specialist end up with 7 at the most for overall bigger point expenditure.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
Another thing:


Spells are now given at level 1, 4, 7, and 10. which are the only level requirements.
Why not at other levels in between too? To make character progression more fluid? Fuller?


I think in part, one reason is to differentiate tiers of skills, and another part is indeed to improve progression. Before, the restriction on amount of skills per level didn't mean too much since you'd only really see one skill at a time unlock per school anyway - there aren't enough skills per school to make skills-at-all-levels really work, I think.

With them clustered, a bunch becoming available at once, it helps you decide where to focus. I certainly like this change from the previous version. For example, once I reach level 4, my fire/earth wizard will be able to use a bunch of skills, but I will only have the ability points to boost one of the two branches by then. Seeing a bunch of things available helps me make the decision easier. If all skills unlocked at different times, it wouldn't be as clear.

It's also much easier to remember "Skills X, Y, and Z are available at level 4" than it is to remember "skill X is available at level 4, Skill Y is availble at level 5, Skill Z is available at level 6".

At least, that's my opinion on it.


Quote
Instead of enabling three slots for skills and spells - why not enable only one at level one for any skill? Then two at lvl 2, then three slots at lvl 3? And so on.

- It would give a better, fuller sense of character progression.
- It would make investing extra points into each skill more valuable and rewarding.
- It would remove the problem of characters who invest only a single point into each skill easily ending up with 15 different skills and spells.

While specialist end up with 7 at the most for overall bigger point expenditure.


I am not a fan. It would make the early game very frustrating as you're stuck with a very limited pool of skills and it would take a long time to be able to get more.

I don't see how that would help make specialists better. I can only see that making them worse - especially because currently at Rank 5, there IS no limit on how many skills you can learn, and you would add on in.

How about thinking about ways to reward instead of punish?

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Again, this is partly down to the fact that Str/Dex/Int (and Con/Spd/Per) are stats that increase separately from skills but actually set the power of those skills. Since dropping "stats" entirely in favor of a unified system (skills and talents but no more Str/Dex/Int/etc stats) probably isn't on that cards at this stage of development, it isn't likely to be resolved without leaving PC abilities spread too thin to allow diversification or one or the other ability set being 'hollow' (currently that set being the skills).

Since the number of skills per category isn't uniform (although it might be by release, it wouldn't necessarily stay that way once mods and such enter the picture), it isn't particularly easy to link anything else to the number of skills known. One possible approach would be to do away with skill books and make investing in the skills (points wise) directly give you the associated skills (specific action-wise), although this would probably need to come with a level requirement (the 4/7/10/whatever progression), so Rank 1 in Fire immediately gives Burning Touch and Flare, Rank 2 in fire gives (whatever the character level 4 Fire skills are), etc. Intelligence would still determine the power and AP cost.

This wouldn't be limited to spells, of course - it would apply just as much to warrior/ranger/rogue skills.

Last edited by NeutroniumDragon; 31/05/14 08:37 AM.
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@ Stabbey

I guess we can just say we are of a different mind about this.

Besides that, I didnt say that i suggest skill at all levels. I can see the number of skills myself, thanks.

Nor do i need such "help to focus" that presumably comes from bunching several of them together, by level requirements like they are.


***


As for skills slots, yes that kind of redesign would change the pacing of the game. I think it would be better overall but im aware this can be only theoretical idea.

It would actually make specialist a little bit better then they are now, because in such a setup, they would be able to get a few more skills faster then the hybrids, or at an even pace, which is now absolutely not true.

Now, a hybrid invests three points into three skills and gets nine slots - or in effect, nine different abilities, spells, skills.

A specialist invests three points into one single skills, which takes it to lvl 2 and opens 5 slots.



in my suggestion:

Hybrid - invests three points into three skills - gets three slots.

Specialist - invests three points into single skill - gets three slots.

And there would be no empty time between lvl 1 and three, as it is now, where you have to wait and save that point to be able to get the skill up to lvl 2 (needs 2 points).
You would get a skill slot for every single point you invest.




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Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
Again, this is partly down to the fact that Str/Dex/Int (and Con/Spd/Per) are stats that increase separately from skills but actually set the power of those skills. Since dropping "stats" entirely in favor of a unified system (skills and talents but no more Str/Dex/Int/etc stats) probably isn't on that cards at this stage of development, it isn't likely to be resolved without leaving PC abilities spread too thin to allow diversification or one or the other ability set being 'hollow' (currently that set being the skills).

I dont agree that is the only choice here. Both stats and "skills" can influence character eventual skills and abilities in the game. One doesnt need to be removed or minimized for the other.

While there is no real need to make them artificially equal either.

Some smaller effects can be still added to skills and spells to make them more worthy, while leaving stats influence as it is.


Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon

Since the number of skills per category isn't uniform (although it might be by release, it wouldn't necessarily stay that way once mods and such enter the picture), it isn't particularly easy to link anything else to the number of skills known.

There is no need to do that at all. There can be as many skills as you like. Its the players decision which ones to take and use or not.

Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon

One possible approach would be to do away with skill books and make investing in the skills (points wise) directly give you the associated skills (specific action-wise), although this would probably need to come with a level requirement (the 4/7/10/whatever progression), so Rank 1 in Fire immediately gives Burning Touch and Flare, Rank 2 in fire gives (whatever the character level 4 Fire skills are), etc. Intelligence would still determine the power and AP cost.


That would almost completely destroy any sense of uniqueness to any character build any player makes since then all players would play with completely identical robots. There would be no choice to it.


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