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#497819 01/06/14 01:09 PM
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I want to bring the current discussion about level cap into beta territory, because of possible spoilers.

The current information suggests that the max. character level will be arround 20 (source: Raze), although there has not been an official statement yet.

- What are your current thoughts on this from your experience in the beta?

- What is your average max level when finishing the beta content?

- What do you think the level progression trough the rest of the game will and/or should be?


My thoughts: (please ignore, I missed an important fact)


Apparantly I was missing the fact, that you get more ability points at later levels, please ignore the following.

Notice: I have not finished the beta yet and probably never will, because I usually dont have the time until the next patch brakes savegames again. So there is a chance, that the following statements (and math) are complete garbage, beware. hahaha

I think 20 is a bit harsh for charater development, because of the high cost to level up abilities.

you get:
- 5 points at level 1
- 19 through levels (1 point lvl. 2 - 20)
- possibly 2 extra points from talent "all skilled up"
- (some predefined points from talents and traits)
- (some points from items)

without traits and just the generic 2 points talent:

= 26 points you are free to spend at max.

example build:
maxing 1 ablility = 15 points (1+2+3+4+5)
getting 2 other abilities to 3 = 12 points
= 27 points, which isnt enough

You could also ignore ability levels 4 and 5 and try to get these from items. That will save a lot of points.

I you would end the game by arround lvl. 30 this would not be as big of a problem, but then you might get too many talent and attribute points to spend.

PS:

I also have not seen any books that give ability points. Is there something like this in the game, or planned?





Last edited by HansHalber; 01/06/14 01:45 PM.
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You've got something wrong.

You get 1 Ability point per level for levels 2-5.
You get 2 Ability points per level for levels 6-11.
You get 3 Ability point per level for levels 12+.

There are supposedly also some free attributes and ability points you can get from questing and leveling, but how many is unknown.

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Ok, thank you. Did not notice that, makes sense.



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Originally Posted by Stabbey
You've got something wrong.

Dont be so rude to posters Stabbey.


As for the OP, i dont see what difference does the number of level cap makes.

Thats completely besides the point. the number itself does not mean you will play less or more. It is not a measure of amount of content.

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character progression and levelling seemed to be fine, at least in my opinion.
Since Mobs do not respawn there is a certain amount of xp you can get, i would say level cap is where you have done everything that gives xp (including killing every single npc in the world, but what would you get from that?), and this may be around level 20 if you play "normally" and maybe higher if you amok-kill everything that isn't (or isn't anymore) involved to a quest.

during the beta, i often even had points left (Trait points mostly), and didn't know where to spend them. Had no problems with the fights at all (ofc i died sometimes, but not because i was too low on levels), had no problems to get xp and progress in the game.

in the end, this game isn't about levelling up your character, or min-maxing stats and such. It's more about finding stuff, puzzles and quests. Or create your own adventures as soon as the creation-tool is ready.

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Since the game doesn't use some form of level scaling or offer a linear adventure, it'll be interesting to see not only what level the encounters towards the end are tuned for, but also what range of levels players each hit after playing through the game in different ways.

The completionist in me is concerned that I'll miss the target level by a mile and end up with trivial encounters right when the game is supposed to be its most challenging.

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Originally Posted by Gyson
Since the game doesn't use some form of level scaling or offer a linear adventure, it'll be interesting to see not only what level the encounters towards the end are tuned for, but also what range of levels players each hit after playing through the game in different ways.

The completionist in me is concerned that I'll miss the target level by a mile and end up with trivial encounters right when the game is supposed to be its most challenging.


i would say there are some ways to solve stuff that give less xp than others (for example the omnious black door, if you don't search for the key and open it by using fireballs or a magical-unlock scroll, you will miss a section of the game). So the "easy way" is probably less rewarding, but i assume the game isn't balanced around this, but rather around the "normal" way (find the obvious stuff and half or more of the optional, not quest related hidden things). So yes, if you do absolutely everything, you may be a bit higher than others, but solving the main stuff does give a lot more xp than finding a hidden room.

you can always play in hard-mode if you are afraid of being overpowered. you will not get more xp in hardmode.

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hmmpf... no, he thinks he will be too strong for late game encounters.
(he likes level scaling btw, and imagining things)


...


Being in control of exact amounts of xp and exact levels of enemies for specific areas of the game, gives devs a relatively easy tool to control the hardness of encounters so that they assure they are actually hard for the levels the players will accrue until then.

The opposite of any level scaling. Which devolves and trivializes combat encounters by its very nature of keeping them on the level of characters.

Here, you can come to late game encounters only weaker by degrees.
Not stronger, over leveled.
but of course it actually depends on the devs themselves.

Seeing how they improved the beta combat so far i would say they dont aim to provide too much easy fights for regular players.


The sense of being stronger then the enemies that can be sometimes achieved in the beta is only there because the devs purposely and intentionally allowed that, by keeping enemies in relatively low levels and by nerfing their abilities and equipment. While giving players too much loot and other resources.

And yet a lot of players complain how difficult the game is ... although, large section of those is due to going into too dangerous areas too soon.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
hmmpf... no, he thinks he will be too strong for late game encounters.

Well, there's a bit of a difference between "thinks" (what you said) and "is concerned that he may" (what I actually said). Regardless, it's a definite possibility, unless the developers have designed their encounters around the idea that players will have visited every location and done everything possible within those locations to earn maximum experience (in which case I feel sorry for all the players who don't).

Originally Posted by Hiver
(he likes level scaling btw, and imagining things)

There's no need for you to be rude. Also, you're oversimplifying my position. I'm more a fan of level scaling that scales content up to the player's level, but not down. That still leaves plenty of room for getting in over your head while also removing the trivial encounters I don't care for.

I'm also not even sure what my likes or dislikes has to do with anything. I could just as easily *not* "like level scaling" and yet I would still have the same concerns I stated earlier in the thread. Did you incorrectly assume otherwise?

Originally Posted by Hiver

Being in control of exact amounts of xp and exact levels of enemies for specific areas of the game, gives devs a relatively easy tool to control the hardness of encounters so that they assure they are actually hard for the levels the players will accrue until then.

The opposite of any level scaling. Which devolves and trivializes combat encounters by its very nature of keeping them on the level of characters.

I always find it both strange and naive when someone insists it is impossible to create an encounter that is both challenging and yet appropriate for a particular level of advancement. To imply that developers can create an encounter that will challenge a level 10 character, but it's impossible to design that same encounter to challenge characters of any level is just odd and a little silly.

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i would still assume the game is balanced around the "normal" or average player, who finds the obvious stuff but may miss some of the well hidden things. There is also a chat, where people will ask how to do things, and if you like it or not, they will get their answers.

the normal or average player will probably not get the maximum amount of xp, and maybe the explorer/completitionist will neither (because this would involve amok-killing every single npc after every quest is done)

so if you don't explore at all, brute-force every door and only do the main plot, you may end up with very hard encounters. I don't think this will happen to a lot of people, because either players like this don't enjoy RPGs at all, or they will find solutions and guides to find all the stuff they want to find.

and if you explore everything and get every XP you can get, you may outlevel stuff, but not that far, because you can't grind xp, and doing quests and finding the important things is more rewarding (in the sense of giving you more XP) than finding hidden chests or basements or puzzles.

of course there are different ways to solve quests, and yep, there are ways of doing things that give more xp than others, but the difference is not game breaking, at least i hope.


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Amount of xp doesnt play that big of a role anyway.

This game is specifically made to provide players with many different skills and spells - that are specifically made to synargize and combine with each other.
The players skill and imagination on how to use and combine all those features is much more important in combat then just xp or levels themselves.

And no, there is no possibility to outlevel stuff, because the devs know the exact amounts of xp in any area. And therefore can adjust the hardness as they want.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
Amount of xp doesnt play that big of a role anyway.

That is simply wrong. I'm surprised to hear you say that as in the past there have been a number of discussions on this forum about how large a difference a level or two can make with an encounter. Especially in terms of how quickly equipment scales in power (too fast, some would argue).

Originally Posted by Hiver
And no, there is no possibility to outlevel stuff, because the devs know the exact amounts of xp in any area. And therefore can adjust the hardness as they want.

That is just not true. While the developers know the exact amount of XP available in any area, with the current design centered around "freedom" they can only speculate on how much of it a player will collect as they adventure through each area.

It comes down to who the content is aimed at - someone who consumes every bit of content available, someone who consumes the bare minimum necessary to advance through the game, or something in the middle. The only way for it to *not* be possible to outlevel content is for the designers to assume and plot around the belief that players will consume every possible XP opportunity available to them, a route I doubt they took and one that presents its own problems for those that don't fall into that category.

Personally, I would love to hear more people respond to one of the original poster's questions:

Originally Posted by HansHalber

- What is your average max level when finishing the beta content?



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Originally Posted by Hiver
Amount of xp doesnt play that big of a role anyway.

This game is specifically made to provide players with many different skills and spells - that are specifically made to synargize and combine with each other.
The players skill and imagination on how to use and combine all those features is much more important in combat then just xp or levels themselves.

And no, there is no possibility to outlevel stuff, because the devs know the exact amounts of xp in any area. And therefore can adjust the hardness as they want.



XP plays a huge role in this game. It is the sole driver of your character's progression. Without it, there are no level gains, and thus no new stat points, abilities, etc. Levels gained via XP also affect which weapons you can use, and thus the amount of damage you can do. If you gain zero levels, you'll be hard pressed to make it outside the western forest. If you can't do that, there isn't much game to play.

In addition, it certainly is possible to outlevel "stuff." In my first playthrough I was very much overleveled for the orcs on the beach area. I believe I was level 8 before I tackled that area. As such, it was a walk in the park.

Your comment about the devs knowing the exact amount of XP in any area is true. But the developers have no control as to how much or little of it a player decides to acquire. Nor do they have total control as to how a player progresses through the game.

I think Gyson's main concern has to do with a player that does every single side quest. Will that character be such a high level before moving to the next area that the initial encounters will be trivial? It is a legitimate concern, though one I'm not sure the developers can do much to resolve.

I don't think end game will be much of an issue as there will be a level cap. That means the final encounter can be tailored for a party that is level 20 or whatever the cap may be. But the battles in between could play out much differently depending on how a player goes through the game.

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Originally Posted by JoeBart
I don't think end game will be much of an issue as there will be a level cap. That means the final encounter can be tailored for a party that is level 20 or whatever the cap may be. But the battles in between could play out much differently depending on how a player goes through the game.

From what we've been told there doesn't seem to be a hardcap on experience or levels, just a point in which you will run out of things to earn experience from (in other words, there is a finite amount of XP available). Of course, the problem there is that one player may consume 90% of it before reaching the end of the story while another player only gathers 60% by focusing solely on the main plot, and the designers may have designed the final encounters around the assumption that players will have accumulated 75% of the XP available.

But, yes, if there were a hardcap it would be easier to predict/control how far everyone has advanced by the end.

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Originally Posted by Gyson
From what we've been told there doesn't seem to be a hardcap on experience or levels, just a point in which you will run out of things to earn experience from (in other words, there is a finite amount of XP available). Of course, the problem there is that one player may consume 90% of it before reaching the end of the story while another player only gathers 60% by focusing solely on the main plot, and the designers may have designed the final encounters around the assumption that players will have accumulated 75% of the XP available.

But, yes, if there were a hardcap it would be easier to predict/control how far everyone has advanced by the end.


Gotcha, I was under the impression it would be capped (not quite sure how I came to that conclusion though!). If that is the case then yes, it would be very possible to be overleveled for the final encounter, or any encounter for that matter. I'm with you in that I sincerely doubt the developers would design the main plot's final battle with the assumption that a player has completed every available quest and side quest. That could make that last fight a bit of a walk in the park.

I don't think there is much to be done about this though. There will be players on two ends of the spectrum (those who want to mostly advance the main plot line and those who want to do every little thing) and the final encounter probably needs to be balanced somewhere in the middle. Likely it will be balanced with the assumption that the player completes at least a fair amount of the side quests.


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So far, in the early game, I don't have a problem of "too much XP". For me, the issue is that I need to do every single quest and kill every single enemy to scrape up enough XP to get enough to match the enemy levels. I think the only quest I haven't done is the Eiglander one, and the crowdwarmer one, which didn't even grant XP in the last patch, if I recall. The rest require visiting different areas. Matching the enemy level seems pretty important to survive and to be able to hit things reliably.

If you want to be level 3 when you pick up the companions, AND still see the henchmen's dialogue for the various quests and story checks, it's possible, but requires careful planning (and a bit of luck).

There are only a few level 3 and level 4 enemies. The enemy levels go up pretty quickly, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of room to reach level 5 before taking on groups of level 5 enemies. I don't know if there really is much optional content.

Of course, I am on Hard difficulty.

This is probably better than it was a few patches ago, when after reaching level 5, I skipped large chunks of content and still out-levelled the final boss of the beta, but I'm not quite sure we're there yet.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
If you want to be level 3 when you pick up the companions, AND still see the henchmen's dialogue for the various quests and story checks, it's possible, but requires careful planning (and a bit of luck).


It's good to know I'm not the only one trying to navigate that particularly annoying dance. Between wanting my companions to be my level and wanting them to join my group before I do any quests/events that will cause me to miss out on their commentary, the first hour in Cyseal feels more like a job to get the game in a "ready to be played" state than actual fun. frown I wish the developers would just lower the companions level down to 2 (since they scale up to match your level, but not down).

Last edited by Gyson; 03/06/14 03:17 PM.
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I make a mistake of opening a thread without logging in and what do i see... gah.. unfiltered, uncensored misunderstandings of my posts...

A clarification is necessary to debunk those ... accidental, unintentional strawman arguments.



The sentence: "Amount of xp doesnt play that big of a role anyway." - Does not mean xp does not play a role at all or that it is small.

That meaning is quite clear or should be... Especially since it is referring to and answering statements that only xp matters, which are wrong as absolutes they try to be.
Which are a part of a larger false idea or notion that having fixed enemy levels or specific difficulty areas - that are independent from players level - is wrong and that level scaling is somehow right. Which that poster stated and argued for repeatedly.
Which is just... nonsense.


Nor does the fact that you can "outlevel" one single smaller area have anything to do with the starting false assertion that you can "just gather enough xp and so overelevel enemies" as you see fit - in one whole area of the game, thus rendering it "easy".


Thats an example of upside down wrong thinking. In a proper RPG that is called character progression, overcoming the obstacles by strategic thinking and more importantly - improving your characters, making them stronger, faster, smarter, better.

- (the easiness of the Orc encounter actually comes from its setup not from specific xp gains or level of the player. It is easily doable at lvl 3 as is with lvl 5 or 8 - because of all those barrels and pools of water so nicely placed right next to the enemies, not to mention chests of arrows and other things)


Although the devs cannot control how much a player improves his character (i.e. how much xp he collects) and they should not know it or care, at all. They do know the exact amounts of it in some area and therefore can specifically adjust the area for it. Or parameters of each encounter as they see fit.

And you know what? Not every encounter should have the same bloody relevant difficulty specifically adjusted to the f... bloody player levels because ... THATS LEVEL SCALING!


...ahem... cough...


Some specific encounters will be specifically and intentionally left ...open in this sense.
Thats you know - non linearity. providing players with a clear and direct sense of character progression and improvement, etc. All completely missing in mass market devolved hybrid action rpgs.


They do not have any obligation to appease bad, incompetent or lazy players. Thats what easy mode is for. As devs of the old school Larian devs know their obligation is to make a good game first and foremost. And im quite comfortable to simply state that. (a lot of devs will say the same thing but thats just hype and PR bullshit)


***


Additionally, as i previously said and now have to repeat again - xp is not all in the game.
Equipment matters, the build and exact stats matter, the spells and skills you choose matter.
As the player skill to tactically apply what he has.


Its another problem that the game seems intent to simply bury any player in tonnes of loot, easy extra scrolls to fill any gaps in magic skills, and conveniently put various exploding barrels right next to the enemies... even after latest adjustment of the loot system - which will be further adjusted.

However, it is a normal mode and those are relatively early areas of the whole game (not so early in this specific area itself), so all that being there doesnt really bother me.

Other areas of beta are tougher, Ai has been regularly improved with ever update, loot system is adjusted and later combat encounters are strengthened all together.

In any case, you cannot just rush into any enemy group without thinking what exactly you are doing and thats fine in my book.



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heyas HansHalber! as many have posted the max level has not been revealed. Thankfully with the modding tools! things can be tweaked as desired. Many have brought up that the current monsters do not scale to player levels...

Larian! pretty please add in an option in the creation tools to let it detect player level and scale encounters up ^_^ thanks much <3

(and yes I would go through the entire encounter file setting all monsters to level scale =p )

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This is a cross-post, but it's related to progression:


Madora, who is Level 5, with 9 Strength (8 + 1 from Gear), has only a 58% chance to hit a level 6 Seaside thug (melee, not crossbow) who is right beside her. That seems excessively low for a 1 level difference.

Yes, I admit that I did not spend the attribute point I got at level 4 on Strength - the only one I was guaranteed to have - I spent it on Constitution instead, which seemed to be perfectly reasonable, since Madora was my sole melee attacker.

A lot of the 2H weapons I'm finding at this level want 10 Strength to use. This means that +STR gear or spending all your attribute points into STR is required, not optional.

If the equipment and accuracy requirements are going to be THIS strict, so strict that I can't do anything else except pump Strength with every point I get, then I think there's a problem.

That's not encouraging freedom, it's restricting you to only a very narrow build, with no room for even SLIGHT deviations. I mean, the difference is just that I spent my Fighter's first attribute point onto CON and not STR - what's wrong with that?

If the problem is that I'm fighting enemy groups one level higher than I am, that's also an issue. That kind of thing will definitely force players into engaging enemies in one, and only one, specific order.

I'm playing on Hard difficulty.

Last edited by Stabbey; 06/06/14 12:11 PM. Reason: lvl diff
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