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Originally Posted by Robcat
RPGs always have some levels cut in development and I wouldn't expect Larian to finish the megadungeon bits unless they were somehow integral to its overall story. I'm not sure why Swen thought it worth mentioning tbh as I'm assuming there is plenty of megadungeon as is, though the cut bits would be cool to give to the community as a modding/learning opportunity if nothing else.


I guess he mentioned this because during Kickstarter 11 dungeon levels were reached - and I think some people would start counting the level dungeons during the game and complain that less than 11 levels are there hehe

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Lol, oh right of course silly So Swen, another question for you... how many megadungeon levels will we be getting then? wink


Edit - actually scratch that question, I don't want to know... tho maybe others do?

Last edited by Robcat; 28/06/14 09:26 AM.

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You know, before answering the other question, there's something I want to say here which I think is important . A game is not a feature list. I look at D:OS and I can't believe how much we put in there - it's 5X the game we originally planned and I'm very proud of what my team accomplished with the few resources we had. What I'm the proudest of however that each feature that's there has sense, and isn't just something for the back of the box.

Whenever it came to deciding where we'd put our effort, we always prioritised according to what we thought would be the best for the game experience. If an existing area needed an extra iteration to make it more fun, we preferred that than just adding a region for the sake of quantity or feature boxes. It's a lot easier to make large boring areas than fun ones. If it came the improving the quality or importance of certain features in the game(e.g. perception or charisma) we preferred that over adding new things. Obviously that means that resources are used in a more focussed manner, but I think it benefited the game experience tremendously.

Tha said, we planned on 4 companions - 2 more will be added once we've taken some fresh air. The AI personalities are going to pop up when they're done which I expect to be fairly soon. As for the dungeons, that's really a non issue. The size and especially density of the world and dungeons that are there largely compensate. This was supposed to be a 40 hour game, it easily is a 60 to 100 hour game.

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people, call me a fanboy. maybe i am, b/c i like how larian is not like many/most other game companies, nonetheless i have to say:

all this talk about "what will be in?", "what features will not be in?", "i am disappointed b/c feature X will not make it until release" etc. really is crap! are you serious?

don't get me wrong; i was the same! i just wanted to be everything i could imagine to be in the game. i wanted everything kickstarter promised to be in perfectly down to the last detail.

but i then realized: the beta already has more content, more interactivity more of almost everything than most other games in their entirety. so what are you guys complaining about?

before you say something like "but Larian said ..." or "but it is Larian responsibility or even liability to ...": Larian is a company of people which by chance are humans. what do you expect from a team of 40 or so people? they already achieved more than so called AAA-companies!

Come on, be realistic. situation is like "wait longer until EVERYthing is in" or "release now ALMOST feature complete (see Swens post above) and have the few missing things patched in a little later". I for sure opt for the latter! Swen said that they would take care of this game! if you believed Swen before, why not believe him in the future?

AND there is the editor. so, if anything you want is missing, build it yourself or wait until someone built it for you!

wait till release day, play the game and then decide whether you are satisfied or not.

btw.:

Quote
A game is not a feature list. I look at D:OS and I can't believe how much we put in there - it's 5X the game we originally planned and I'm very proud of what my team accomplished with the few resources we had. What I'm the proudest of however that each feature that's there has sense, and isn't just something for the back of the box.


'nuff said

Last edited by 4verse; 28/06/14 10:05 AM.

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I'm not disappointed, I suspected it was too good to be true with all these features think I'm proud what Larian has done until today!

Now, I trust them, 'cause the game will get updates and probably big extension or enhanced edition later (like Developer's cut for Divinity II). Wait Play & see smile

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Ah well- I suppose it's not that much of an issue. Still absolutely looking forward to the game. Although I'll finish one RPG before that.. Hope that some of the features will make it in by then!

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Originally Posted by Lar_q
A game is not a feature list.


After the hostility in the "high heels" thread and seeing the general behavior of certain community members I quit reading and posting in the forum, also stopping giving feedback and ideas (This is also part of the reason for my plans how to handle larian in the future). But now as the game is going to be released I came back taking a look and I have to say I'm also disappointed. I for myself absolutely understand the sentence I quoted and I agree with you. On the other hand the Kickstarter campaign is some kind of a promise. A mutual agreement where two sides make a promise. We gave you money and you promised certain features, so I guess you can understand why some people are rather emotional about it. I guess it's not so much about the dungeon, thats kind of not so important if you look at the size of the rest of the game. But the companions thingy ... well, this surely gives hard feelings for many people, same with the AI personality. However, best thing is to wait and see. There are some things where I hadn't the impression you are listening much to the ideas and complaints of the backers and therefor I'm not very likely to back you in the future. This is not an advice to other people or something like that, only my opinion and what I'm very likely going to do.
I think you can handle those level of critic, at least you likely have to admit there is a point to it.

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Lol people here are behaving like kids being told for the very first time Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Also, it's interesting how the main interest in rpg for quite a large portion of people expressing their opinion seems to be the ability to date npcs.

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Originally Posted by Glamour
Lol people here are behaving like kids being told for the very first time Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Also, it's interesting how the main interest in rpg for quite a large portion of people expressing their opinion seems to be the ability to date npcs.


Ah, thanks proving the point. This was the reason why I left. Bye

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Originally Posted by WintermuteX
Originally Posted by Lar_q
A game is not a feature list.


After the hostility in the "high heels" thread and seeing the general behavior of certain community members I quit reading and posting in the forum, also stopping giving feedback and ideas (This is also part of the reason for my plans how to handle larian in the future). But now as the game is going to be released I came back taking a look and I have to say I'm also disappointed. I for myself absolutely understand the sentence I quoted and I agree with you. On the other hand the Kickstarter campaign is some kind of a promise. A mutual agreement where two sides make a promise. We gave you money and you promised certain features, so I guess you can understand why some people are rather emotional about it. I guess it's not so much about the dungeon, thats kind of not so important if you look at the size of the rest of the game. But the companions thingy ... well, this surely gives hard feelings for many people, same with the AI personality. However, best thing is to wait and see. There are some things where I hadn't the impression you are listening much to the ideas and complaints of the backers and therefor I'm not very likely to back you in the future. This is not an advice to other people or something like that, only my opinion and what I'm very likely going to do.
I think you can handle those level of critic, at least you likely have to admit there is a point to it.


If they delayed the game, people would complain.

If they implemented the features, but half-arsed them because they lacked the time, people would complain.

If they cut features so they can release the game, people complain.

Nothing wrong with being disappointed, but to think you have been slighted? like they failed greatly? Have you seen the competition out there? You do realize nothing out there can even hold a candle to what Larian has made? As Swen pointed out, this game has easily 60-100 hours of play. When was the last time you played a game with that much content? Hmm? Last time I checked, the average game was around 8-10 hours of play and even then those games are filled with bugs and broken promises.


It is fair to be disappointed, but the level of reactions I am seeing from people is... well.. it is like it is disconnected from reality. It is also insulting how ridiculous people are acting in their attacks. If you know anything about this company, you know these people seriously care about their games and if you think you are disappointed in them missing a couple of features, I can promise you they are far more disappointed than you ever will be.

It blows my mind here how short sighted people are, how clueless they are concerning what this company has provided compared to what is out there. You want to poke them a bit for missing a deadline or failing to implement a feature, etc... fine, they can take it, but all of this gnashing of teeth by people, these claims of "I will never support you again" are so superficial and fake. It is the same mantra you see every release from all the AAA companies out there that stick it to their customers and yet... they keep buying those garbage titles. Though hey... never mind that right? Larian betrayed you all, woe is me, life can not go on... it really is rather silly.




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Originally Posted by WintermuteX
Originally Posted by Glamour
Lol people here are behaving like kids being told for the very first time Santa Claus doesn't exist.
Also, it's interesting how the main interest in rpg for quite a large portion of people expressing their opinion seems to be the ability to date npcs.


Ah, thanks proving the point. This was the reason why I left. Bye


Wow... pretty thin skinned of you. Can't say that I am sad to see you go as discussion with you would be near impossible as it appears you would get offended by even the slightest of things.

Good luck with that!

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I'm not going to comment on positive/negative because I haven't really played the game yet (maybe 10 hours during beta). I will say that like others the AI pesonality is critical because I will be playing solo and I want my companion to behave in a consistent pattern without having to tell him/her what to do and I don't expect him/her to just agree with me all the time (ala my perception of loyal). Random might start out good but at the end of the day it will be obvious it is random (if random was more of a learned state; i.e, as the companion developed traits from a few initial random rolls and these traits drove it in a certain direction that woudl be a different matter; but the description implies this is not the case).
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The above is not an expression of disappointment or negativity on larian but rahter a desire to wait for an improved experience (ala patches); but I wait a lot of times on games like this so this is nothign new.
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With regards to the phantom forest more is always better (as long as it is decent quality); so if they decide to add more at a later date I woudl certainly not complain but until I play the game I can't really comment if the current experience is or is not satisfying (I never take others words on things - and I really only care if I find it to be fun or not fun not what others think).
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At the end of the day I found DKS to be absolutely excellent (I hear earlier versions were less satisfying but I did not play them so no comment). DD was ok and i have yet to play BD. DC I have but i was unhappy with the RTS aspect during beta and since D:OS has dominated Larian time they have not spent as much on DC post release as they might otherwise.
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Don't take me wrong I think your effort and support have been extermely good and I am willing to support you on effort alone and I hope I enjoy D:OS as much as DKS which was my favorite game of that period (even though it was overshadowed by a few other games in the press).
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Btw the only AI personality I think is needed is a learning random behavior (described above); naturally others are welcomed but Loyality (if my understanding is correct) is the worse possible option as modest conflict is more intersting then having someone that is too agree-able for the sake of loyalty smile

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Originally Posted by Lar_q
You know, before answering the other question, there's something I want to say here which I think is important . A game is not a feature list. I look at D:OS and I can't believe how much we put in there - it's 5X the game we originally planned and I'm very proud of what my team accomplished with the few resources we had. What I'm the proudest of however that each feature that's there has sense, and isn't just something for the back of the box.

Whenever it came to deciding where we'd put our effort, we always prioritised according to what we thought would be the best for the game experience. If an existing area needed an extra iteration to make it more fun, we preferred that than just adding a region for the sake of quantity or feature boxes. It's a lot easier to make large boring areas than fun ones. If it came the improving the quality or importance of certain features in the game(e.g. perception or charisma) we preferred that over adding new things. Obviously that means that resources are used in a more focussed manner, but I think it benefited the game experience tremendously.

Tha said, we planned on 4 companions - 2 more will be added once we've taken some fresh air. The AI personalities are going to pop up when they're done which I expect to be fairly soon. As for the dungeons, that's really a non issue. The size and especially density of the world and dungeons that are there largely compensate. This was supposed to be a 40 hour game, it easily is a 60 to 100 hour game.


Swen, don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of Larian and Divinity: Original Sin and I value all the work you put in the game! It has become a really great and satisfying game and I honestly agree that a game is not a feature list and that the game as whole is so much more worth than its parts. A few minor missing things don't devalue what you have achieved with D:OS. You can and should be proud of yourself and your studio! smile

That being said, could you give any rough ETA on the additional companions? "After a bit of fresh air" could mean many things (but you've definitely deserve a few day off to regenrate and see your family again of course ;)). Do you think it's more a matter of days, weeks or months? In case you think that the third and forth companions should be ready in July for example I would wait a bit with playing D:OS but then again I probably wouldn't wait if they won't appear before August or even September. Any clarifcation/ETA would be very much appreciated, thanks. wink

I know that game development is a matter you cannot easily forecast. For example Larian couldn't know that Kirill would get ill during the development but they reacted in a great manner giving us even more great music for the game. Same is true for features. They increased the feature list and the scope of the game with almost every update during the early access phase. I think it's wrong to talk about "broken promises" here. Larian did their best to make the game as awesome as they could with the time, skill and money they had. And Swen already promised here that they will hand in the missing content later. You could just see that as another "inofficial release delay" if you think that these things are necessary or increase the fun you can have with the game. Another official delay obviously wasn't possible since Larian has made contracts with distributors and they have to stick to them.

Don't take it too serious, Swen. Most people still love you and your games. You've done a great job. I'm pretty much sure that you of all people would have been the gladdest person if you'd managed to include everything in the final release version.

And remember:
If nobody complains, nobody cares. cheer

Last edited by LordCrash; 28/06/14 12:50 PM.

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Originally Posted by LordCrash

And remember:
If nobody complains, nobody cares. cheer


Well, unless they only care about complaining.

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Well it looks like I'll just be kind of messing around with the game until all the planned features are added. I'm still trying to figure out how most the features work anyway. Hopefully an updated game manual comes out when the game does, or at least someone starts a good wiki.

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I hope we learn how to create our own companions via the engine tool. I am sure some epic companions will result smile Getting tutorials for that is much higher on my priority list than actual companions in-game.

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I know this might come across as selfish or whiny, considering the quality of the game, and the amount of stuff they added in, but in my head, I thought that there would be a total of six Companions. Only two more, and of those remaining two, one's already been revealed?

Oh well, maybe if there's an expansion they'll add more (although that might just be a brand new setting anyway).

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I know this might come across as selfish or whiny, considering the quality of the game, and the amount of stuff they added in, but in my head, I thought that there would be a total of six Companions. Only two more, and of those remaining two, one's already been revealed?

Oh well, maybe if there's an expansion they'll add more (although that might just be a brand new setting anyway).


I wonder whether someone will patch/mod in a floating skull as a companion...

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Originally Posted by LordCrash
Originally Posted by Lar_q
Tha said, we planned on 4 companions - 2 more will be added once we've taken some fresh air. The AI personalities are going to pop up when they're done which I expect to be fairly soon.


That being said, could you give any rough ETA on the additional companions? "After a bit of fresh air" could mean many things (but you've definitely deserve a few day off to regenrate and see your family again of course ;)). Do you think it's more a matter of days, weeks or months? In case you think that the third and forth companions should be ready in July for example I would wait a bit with playing D:OS but then again I probably wouldn't wait if they won't appear before August or even September. Any clarifcation/ETA would be very much appreciated, thanks. wink


I wouldn't expect the extra companions any time in July. I think "a bit of fresh air" = much needed vacations and family time, and I suspect those are going to take the better part of a month. If AI personalities are being scheduled before the remaining companions, and companions aren't being worked on until the team returns from vacations, I would be surprised to see a companion update before the end of August (and September seems more likely as I'm sure there will be plenty of other bugs and emergencies to resolve).

-------------------------------------

As for all the other posted comments in the latter half of this thread: yes, a game is not a feature list, but crowdfunding campaigns like Kickstarter tend to sell it as one in order to raise funding. Give N dollars and we give you feature X, and all that. And so I don't really think there should be any surprises on either side when backers for concerned about feature X, Y, and Z. And while it's true cut features are only an issue because of the transparency in this project, both sides should keep in mind that the transparency was necessary to secure additional funding and time to complete many of the completed features people are proud of. One comes with the other.

The negative reactions here from people who are expressing their disappointment in the news are relatively mild, particularly when compared to the comments on Steam (which, in my opinion, have been going overboard). There's nothing wrong with people suggesting they're disappointed; I would not expect them to feign delight whenever news disappoints them.

The negative reactions here aimed at those expressing disappointment over the news, however, are a little harsh, and should probably be aimed at the comments on Steam and not here. I suspect people are reading both forums and then posting their reactions here, which (considering the fairly tame comments in this thread) seem out of place.

In the end, for projects like this there is only so much time, and so much money, and when both are gone you have what you have. All the disappointment in the world can't change that. We are also constantly suggesting additional features and fixes, and none of that is free - it all takes resources that may have easily caused other features to miss their deadline. There's plenty of fault to go around, if fault is even worth assigning in the first place. Even now at the end amidst all the work there was/is to do, the developers seem to be trying to fulfill quality of life requests as they crop up (and we keep throwing more at them), so I'm not going to pretend they don't care about the game or their fans.

I came here looking for a fun RPG with turn-based combat, and I believe that's what we got (and then some). If someone else expected "SIMS : Fantasy Edition", I think they were setting themselves up for disappointment. And I do think many of the reactions on Steam are overly harsh, as it seems odd to suggest the game is bringing you tons of enjoyment on one day, only for it and your faith in the development team to be shattered because of a missing companion or personality announcement on the next. That just seems fickle, as folks were obviously enjoying the game without them before, and can easily continue doing so until they eventually arrive. Disappointment is fine, pitchforks and torches.. not so much.

And while I'm sure people will disagree, any of you have the ability to give your two main characters any personality you desire, just by making a decision at the start regarding how they will act and then being strong enough to stick to your plan when the debating becomes inconvenient. You don't need to wait for the developers to automate it for you. That is the whole "Role" part of the RPG. I'm not suggesting AI personalities won't be a nice feature to have, just that I think people are painting themselves into a corner if they pretend they can't play without them.

Anyway, thanks for the information you were able to provide, Swen. Frankly, you could have just as easily taken the route of most other developers and just gone quiet! So, thanks again. up


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My 2.

Freakin love that someone made a TB coop game, period.

Larian is a great developer, very open to us. To me their history has always been time and money, meaning if they had more of each, we'd have this game another 6 months from now, polished perfectly and with all promises, it would be released as their Opus. But time and money is a factor to most. I'm sure they are hoping and we are to, that D:OS will put an end to Money ever being a factor to Larian games being released in the future.

I'll fire it up Monday, play it some but not too hard, keep an eye out for reports, if it stays relatively clean I'll venture forth. I don't hold this against them, but when you are developing to the last possible moment that isn't ideal, they've come a long way as we were able to enjoy and witness, but this all goes back to time and money now. I look forward to further improving the UI, the little odd quirks that happen in game, tweaks, balances and quests we haven't even seen yet being cleaned up. I will hit up the Editor asap to see what we can do with the main game, to see what personal touches are possible, any game that allows me to mess with mechanics easily, A++ in my book.

There is a lot of buzz for this game, it's been growing steadily recently. I'm not sure I've seen a Larian game have so much momentum on release. Hope it bodes well for them.

Shout out to all devs who have made turnbased games lately. I'm not sure I've played a bad one. From Xcom to Blackguards to Shadowrun to Paper Sorcerer to Banner Saga to MMX to Desktop Dungeons to Dungeons of Dreadmore and several other Rogue likes and I'm sure a couple other TB games I missed mentioning. What was once long ignored (or very 8bit'ish offerings) has imo now become the golden era, as a collective lot this is better than back then.

There are like 4 Isometrics in development currently, all going for the BG/Torment spirit, my gut is saying right now, D:OS will be known as the best one once we get to look back at all of this, the MP and Editor will be the difference.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 28/06/14 04:20 PM.
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