Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Thanks Larian.

Again for those who read, I don't care about 8 euros, or the summer sale, or kickstarter, or whatever.
What upsets me is that Larian didn't have the decency to wait a little bit after the release to propose a discount. They discounted BEFORE the release.
I know being gay is kindof trendy those days, and people should really rejoice when they get fucked. I guess I am too old fashioned, because I don't like it. Calling me baby or prick or whatever won't change anything, good sweet boys...

This is rather good food for thought Crom, we can all feel crapped about things at times, but it is just a game/8euros. Plenty of crappy things happening in the world much more worth your passion.

I still haven't heard an argument as to WHY the sale constitutes a lack of decency, nor have you addressed any of my questions or counterarguments Cromcrom.

You can insist on your point of view and continue being senselessly rude all you like, but unless you can explain why it is we should feel outraged at this sale you are unlikely to do any good.

Help me out, can you finish the following sentence? It is unjust for Larian to put Original Sin on sale now because...

Don't just make unjustified value judgements like 'because it is unfair' or 'lacks decency'. Explain WHY it is unfair or lacking in decency. We may still disagree but at least others may then sympathise and understand your point of view, because right now it looks like it's based upon nothing but emotion.

Re read my posts, you will find your answer. Unless you don't want to understand.
As for sympathy, or understanding my point of view, well, I don't really really care, as I am talking about morality, an old fashioned value thats not really worth anything in this lying Larian world. All about business and making money, are we not ?
And tell me, what is wrong with emotions anyways ?

here is another thing you can bother your head about for about 1day 17hours 44min (as of the time of me writing this): https://www.g2a.com/weeklysale

get over it. the value of gaming software deteriorates over time faster than you can say "i love Larian for all its coolness" even if a respective software has not even been released yet.

btw: i dont think Larian initiated that weekly sale price at g2a.

ah Cromcrom, logn time no troll ^^



you'd gotta be joking !! Larian a business oriented company?! I suggest you have a look at Swen's blog

While I think businesses tend to make decisions they NEED to make when they NEED to make them.. I'll finish that sentence for you...


It is unjust for Larian to put Original Sin on sale now because... I paid the full price and have not even seen the full game.

C'mon now.. you have to feel a little bit like a sucker for paying more than you needed to to have the full game on Day 1 of availability.

I want games like this to be made again. So I was happy to plunk down the money to help make that happen. But you have to realize that not everyone will feel that way. You have to know it is REASONABLE for them to feel that way.

I had re-read all your posts immediately before my last post. Sorry, I still don't see any reasons given to support your claim that it's unfair. Nor any response to the counterargument that early access itself has value beyond the base price of the game.

Of course I want to understand, otherwise why would I be asking you to explain your argument?



Nothing necessarily. I'm a big believer in the informative power of emotions. Emotions are a window into the soul (so to speak) and are a great guide in life. However, I also believe that an argument must be founded in reason. If I can't articulate my emotional response to something then I consider that response suspect. Initially I shared your view that the sale felt a bit off, yet thinking about it I couldn't come up with a good reason why and have since concluded that it's actually a good thing.

I now you missed me, so I made a little ranting comeback, just like you like them ;-)
But I am genuinely "mad" anyways...

Like ? Giving money to Larian so they can keep piling bugs ?

I didn't enjoy the EA. I still don't enjoy the game, which is tremendously frustrating for me. I bought the game based on lies (cycles, "next ultima", henchmen, editor...). So I feel cheated, even more since usually, it is common on Steam to see sales some times AFTER the game is released, so that the stupid asses like myself that pay the game full price from day one can enjoy it sooner than some that will not care as much about the game, and pay much less for a much more finished product. I know the rules, but by bargaining the game BEFORE release, Larian broke the common rules. And if you play with someone that breaks the rules, thay you can feel cheated, and feel it is unfair, which I do. Some of us have stronger sense of justice than others, get over it.

How does that follow? You paid full price and will receive the full game. Additionally you received early access to the game, which I assume you consider was worth purchasing. Otherwise why did you? Anyone previously purchasing the game did actually get early access to the game, which has a value that people purchasing now won't be getting. You'd probably be kicking yourself if you bought it for full price the day before it went on sale, but why would you be buying Early Access at that time anyway?

Buy Early Access at full price = Get early access and eventually full game.

Buy game now on sale = Almost no early access and eventually full game.

See?



I think it is reasonable to FEEL like it is unfair, sales by nature kinda are hey. However I don't think that it actually is unfair in this case, as Early Access purchasers did get something of additional value for that $8.

I believe that saying fuck you to Larian is unfair and ridiculous.

Err, like early access to the game? Are you being intentionally facetious?

Cromcrom, it sounds like your actual beef is not with the sale but with the product. I can appreciate and respect that view. However that is a separate and different argument to make.

Perhaps if you explained these rules to me I might develop a greater sense of justice. I take ethics and justice very seriously, so would be indebted to you if you could explain my immorality here.

You are not being immoral. Larian is.
I really wish I could be like you, keep smiling while being fucked, but again, I can't.
However, it is a feeling, a sense. You have it or not, there is nothing to explain.
NVM.

It is also pretty common before release. Lots of SEA title have gone on sale; some have even been in very cheap bundles before release.



Ok, in the name of justice, how long after release should Larian have waited before putting the game on sale? Let's call that time X.
If someone buys the game on the release day, how long after that should Larian wait before puyting it on sale? Let's call that time Y. Presumablly Y is less than or equal to X.
Now to be fair to the person who buys the game on day Y-1, how long should Larian wait before putting the game on sale?


To follow up on Gyson excellent point, do you care if Larian committed to the sale before the release was delayed? Should your sense of fairness trump signed contracts (if that is the case)?


Given the huge increase in number of player with the sale, do you think the game would have done just as well if it didn't get any exposure until the summer sale was over and most people had spent their entertainment budget?

Do you not figure the game needs to do well in order for Larian to continue to support the editor, which will make it easier for you to change all the stuff you don't like about the game? Shouldn't enlightened self interest at least consider the results of the sale, and not just whether you think it is fair to you personally, or not?

I think the 'rules' aren't clear, and that's the cause of the problem.

If you want to argue that all Steam Early Access (SEA) games should always be cheaper than at release, I would agree that this is in the best interests of the consumer (at least short term). However this in itself is not a justification for why it should be cheaper, just what benefits the consumer more. I don't think it's necessarily fair either, as surely SEA has some value to its customers beyond the base game, else why buy it? And SEA purchasers are under no obligation to provide feedback to the developers either, though it is not unreasonable to feel deserving of some recompense in the form of a discount on the game if they do. So what are the expectations of SEA customers?

It seems the real issue here is transparency of the cost structure for the game during development to release.

I would argue that developers should be able to set any price point they wish (according to what they feel their game is worth and what the market will allow them to get), but must make clear if (and how) the price will vary over the course of the early access period and what the final cost of the game will be at release. Further, customers should be made aware that the game may go on sale prior to release. So consumers would then have the information available to make an informed decision regarding their purchase and set their expectations accordingly.

One or two month after release feels pretty good. NOT ten days BEFORE.

No signed contracts indeed. So many lies they would be bankrupt now.



Like I should care ? As much as they care about there early supporters, that is, really not much.

What editor ? The one that is announced on EA since the beginning, that is mostly why I bought EA, that was "almost certainly" due in december 2013, and is still not there ? That rubbish will probably be so bugged, just like the rest of the game, that modders will never know if it's a "feature" or a "bug". Gimme a break. Right now, and until I use it, the editor is just another Larian lie.

What I see is that, again by cheating, Larian will keep stealing money to keep removing promises. What is the next fucked deal and broken promise ? AI ?
Will they hope to cheat the game reviewers by having fast reviews on cyseal only, and leave the rest of the buggy game for the players to enjoy ? Sounds leggit to me, in a good Larian way. Nonetheless, I pray for some honest reviews to say that the only thing that saves this game is the coop and the chat, and the F5 key, (hoping it won't be corrupt whenever the game crashes).

Real honesty would have been to price EA like 30 box, and make the full game like 35 or 39, like some really honest Indie studios (that probably more sorely need money than Larian) do. But lol, they did the exact contrary, make EA 39, and the almost finished game 31. Lol ^^

And this sale is the only one for years to come. Of course, they just couldn't wait for the next one, and make it proper. They had to grab money, couldn't help it...

But really, thank you Larian, a lot of great lessons learned. Never trust game devs, never support a game with EA or backing, always wait for deals to buy games the cheapest possible (latest lesson). Especially from Larian.

Thanks folks


Nothing to add. To the point. Clarity and honesty. I second that, really.

The fundamental issue here is that Cromcrom believes his purchase, by virtue of being a per-release "Early Access" buy, included an implicit agreement that there would be no lower price before release. Assuming terms of sale that are not specifically stated is foolish.

Really it's a good life lesson to learn at the eight dollar level. It could be much worse. "I assumed the property I bought went all the way back to the tree line." "I assumed the car was running and in good shape when I wrote the check" "I assumed you picked them up" and so on.

You're entitled to a copy of the game. If you wanted a price guarantee you should have looked for on offer with that bullet point.

I tell people all the time: "do not pre-order games until a few days before release". Why? For this very reason right here. Despite what someone said earlier in the thread, games often do go on sale before release(or day of).

Amazon, BestBuy, Fry's, NewEgg, GoG, Steam...you name it. For years and years and years I've been waiting til the week of launch day to pre-order. It's either cheaper or you now have numerous options for a pre-order bonus rather than just the one when it was ordered months earlier.

Now that I've typed this and you've read it, you cannot say you weren't warned about this for future games.

Stop pre-ordering months in advance, problem solved.

^bargeral

True, though to be fair Cromcrom is looking for pricing to be fair, not just how to protect himself from unfair pricing.









*Edit response to bargeral's post

shug.

Caveat emptor. You get the deal you get. It has no bearing on deals others get.

Anecdote ahead: My roommate bought a new car. It was nice and I was young so I went and bought one too. I had no business buying a car since I was broke. So when the salesman pulled the "I need to talk to the manager" trick I kept coming back with, it's close, but I can't quite swing that. The net net was my car cost me forty bucks a month less than my roommates: 2,400 on a five year loan. Same car, same model, same dealer etc. Just a cheaper car because, through no particular intent on my part, I had negotiated a better deal. My roommate was not entitled to renegotiate.

You get the deal you agreed to. No more no less.

It's a sticky wicket. I agree that restricting international sales and region locking to control prices is wrong. I agree that the guy buying bubble gum standing in the same line as me should pay the same price as me. But I just don't see the moral high ground here. Cromcrom bought a product at one price, then it went on sale. Happens all the time, and there's always some old guy at the register waving yesterdays receipt and today's sales flyer at the cashier. He might get a refund, but only as a path of least resistance. And he'll walk out chest held high thinking he's won some great moral victory, but really he's just a self-entitled whiny bully.

Edit to add: the guy at the register is a "self-entitled whiny bully". Cromcrom has a point. I'm just not sure I agree. But I don't see him as a whiny bully. More just venting.