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Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Ichthyic
"Well, the mage spell "self immolate" and "explode" both deal fire damage to the caster."

argument is irrelevant.





How is it irrelevant? It was in reply to

Originally Posted by Gyson
Friendly fire aside, I think most (if not all?) spells are designed to benefit the caster without costing him health in the process. As spell balance can be achieved through action point cost and refresh times, I'm not sure why people are assuming Phoenix Dive is meant to harm the caster


Probably because of the nature of the spells (explode yourself, set yourself on fire). These are actions you'd probably expect to hurt.

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Originally Posted by Ichthyic
all of which have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME.

run along.
You are right. The creators of this game must have named the skill Phoenix because they picked it randomly out of a hat. Not because it makes you fly, while setting fire to yourself and the things around you. Phoenix must be a gibberish word, right? Nothing related at all, right? Not the slightest inspiration for exactly what the skill does, right? smile

Last edited by Incendax; 23/07/14 06:31 AM.
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Fire Elemental in the End of Time - he stocks it

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Originally Posted by Ichthyic
"Play this music for appropriate dramatic effect while you click the links below:"

all of which have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME.

run along.



The links actually have a lot to do with the game. Everyone here is trying to explain how a Phoenix commits suicide in burning fires to become reborn. Have you not watched any of the Harry Potter movies? I think it was the Chamber of Secrets where Harry nearly gets traumatized with Professor Dumbledoors (sp??) Phoenix burning up.

Flying in the air and crashing down as a fireball makes perfect sense for you to receive damage. It is also a bad idea to tell anyone that is trying to help you understand to just "run along". The way fire spells work, your primary fire mage should have very high resistance to fire. Anything over 100% resistance will actually cause a healing effect.

Though Larian does need to make that skill more available, I didn't know only the fire elemental sold it. I thought it was too over powered and totally removed from the game.

Last edited by LightningLockey; 23/07/14 06:55 AM.

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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
It is also a bad idea to tell anyone that is trying to help you understand to just "run along".
I have to admit I was being a little snarky at that point, and probably deserved it :P

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Originally Posted by erohakase
I seem to remember getting this skill on my Warrior quite easily and now I've been reloading for a while trying to see if anyone's selling it but no luck. Was it removed?


See spoiler for details:



Each of the elementals in your homestead has a special skill that they will sell. For the fire elemental, in the hall of flame, it's phoenix dive. You know it's special, because it's out of place compared to the other man-at-arms skills.

He always stocks one copy. The other elementals similarly stock a special skill as well.

Last edited by blinkicide; 23/07/14 10:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
Everyone here is trying to explain how a Phoenix commits suicide in burning fires to become reborn.

...

Flying in the air and crashing down as a fireball makes perfect sense for you to receive damage.


I'm a bit confused why people keep insisting this is supposed to be "just like a phoenix" right up until that whole reborn part of a phoenix's life. I don't consider "arriving very damaged and in a burning state that will bring you to death" reminiscent of the phoenix's ability to be reborn anew.

Maybe it should have been called "Almost a Phoenix Dive, But More Like a Flaming Swan"?

Or we could just fix the whole set-the-user-on-fire bit, since this is a Warrior skill and not pyro-mage spell. (Fun fact: at one point Phoenix Dive was a mage spell.)

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This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody willingly sets themselves on fire unless they are staging a self-immolation protest.

I get the upsides/downsides to status effects, such as chilled making you resist fire but slow and vulnerable to frost. Skills that do damage to both the user, his party AND the enemies are utter nonsense, unless they are last-ditch heroic efforts that produce a massive, appreciable impact that makes the sacrifice worthwhile. I don't think Phoenix Dive qualifies.

Here's to hoping it gets patched out or modded out eventually.


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Originally Posted by Damar Stiehl
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody willingly sets themselves on fire unless they are staging a self-immolation protest.

I get the upsides/downsides to status effects, such as chilled making you resist fire but slow and vulnerable to frost. Skills that do damage to both the user, his party AND the enemies are utter nonsense, unless they are last-ditch heroic efforts that produce a massive, appreciable impact that makes the sacrifice worthwhile. I don't think Phoenix Dive qualifies.

Here's to hoping it gets patched out or modded out eventually.


I get what you're saying, bro... but plate armors are generally high in resistances. Wouldn't it be easy to get to near 100% fire resist by the time you get Phoenix Dive?


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Originally Posted by Damar Stiehl
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Nobody willingly sets themselves on fire unless they are staging a self-immolation protest.

I get the upsides/downsides to status effects, such as chilled making you resist fire but slow and vulnerable to frost. Skills that do damage to both the user, his party AND the enemies are utter nonsense, unless they are last-ditch heroic efforts that produce a massive, appreciable impact that makes the sacrifice worthwhile. I don't think Phoenix Dive qualifies.

Here's to hoping it gets patched out or modded out eventually.


Thing is, there are already spells that do this. Literally, there is a mage spell that creates an area of fire around themselves. That's all it does. It's even called "Self Immolation".

The concept of an ability which hurts you, but gives you something valuable in return, is not really novel. I can see this particular issue being a bug or working as intended, but either way I don't think it makes a very big difference (seriously my warrior being set on fire is not a big deal, they are already tanky as hell) and either way Larian intended it wouldn't surprise me.

I really don't know why people are losing their minds over it.

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The purpose of Phoenix Dive needs to be examined; it serves as a means of quickly escaping a bad situation or inserting a fighter deep into enemy lines. One only has to ask: do either of these scenarios sound like a moment where wounding yourself sounds like a bright idea?

If you're in danger and need to escape, is adding burning damage to your list of troubles really the best of decisions?

If you're going to insert yourself behind enemy lines with little to no support, is damaging yourself upon arrival really the type of plan you should be running with?

When it comes down to it, the ability is little more than a Warrior's leap or stomp as seen in other games, except with the additional silly idea of torching yourself in the process. It's like someone said "how can we make a Warrior's leap/stomp cooler than it already is? I know.. douse yourself in oil and light a match first.. yeah!". ouch


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Originally Posted by Gyson
It's like someone said "how can we make a Warrior's leap/stomp cooler than it already is? I know.. douse yourself in oil and light a match first.. yeah!".

Well... http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/picture/nocheesetonight/sketchfire2.gif

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Originally Posted by Gyson
The purpose of Phoenix Dive needs to be examined; it serves as a means of quickly escaping a bad situation or inserting a fighter deep into enemy lines. One only has to ask: do either of these scenarios sound like a moment where wounding yourself sounds like a bright idea?

If you're in danger and need to escape, is adding burning damage to your list of troubles really the best of decisions?

If you're going to insert yourself behind enemy lines with little to no support, is damaging yourself upon arrival really the type of plan you should be running with?

When it comes down to it, the ability is little more than a Warrior's leap or stomp as seen in other games, except with the additional silly idea of torching yourself in the process. It's like someone said "how can we make a Warrior's leap/stomp cooler than it already is? I know.. douse yourself in oil and light a match first.. yeah!". ouch



Except any fighter worth his salt is going to have a ton of hitpoints and resistances. In a round about way he becomes a form of living bomb.

It's strategic... sure you might cost your own team some hitpoints but if it means exploding the massive ocean of acid your teammate just laid down it could be worth it.

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This is what this whole thing reminds me of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phve8IzBlgk

About 2 minutes in or so...


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Originally Posted by Mr. C
Originally Posted by Gyson
The purpose of Phoenix Dive needs to be examined; it serves as a means of quickly escaping a bad situation or inserting a fighter deep into enemy lines. One only has to ask: do either of these scenarios sound like a moment where wounding yourself sounds like a bright idea?

If you're in danger and need to escape, is adding burning damage to your list of troubles really the best of decisions?

If you're going to insert yourself behind enemy lines with little to no support, is damaging yourself upon arrival really the type of plan you should be running with?

When it comes down to it, the ability is little more than a Warrior's leap or stomp as seen in other games, except with the additional silly idea of torching yourself in the process. It's like someone said "how can we make a Warrior's leap/stomp cooler than it already is? I know.. douse yourself in oil and light a match first.. yeah!". ouch



Except any fighter worth his salt is going to have a ton of hitpoints and resistances. In a round about way he becomes a form of living bomb.


Not normally at level 8 when the spell becomes available. I think too many of you are thinking "When I'm high level and have 100% resist and this spell heals me instead of damages.. I don't see the problem..".

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Originally Posted by Gyson
Not normally at level 8 when the spell becomes available. I think too many of you are thinking "When I'm high level and have 100% resist and this spell heals me instead of damages.. I don't see the problem..".


I got the spell around level 10. My warrior still takes damage from using it, but they are also a tanky warrior. This playthrough wound up being easier than I would have liked (I got Leech and Glass Cannon on my people before realizing how OP they are, and don't fancy respecing). So either with that in mind, or regardless, I don't consider the minor damage from burning to be that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Gyson
Not normally at level 8 when the spell becomes available. I think too many of you are thinking "When I'm high level and have 100% resist and this spell heals me instead of damages.. I don't see the problem..".


I got the spell around level 10. My warrior still takes damage from using it, but they are also a tanky warrior. This playthrough wound up being easier than I would have liked (I got Leech and Glass Cannon on my people before realizing how OP they are, and don't fancy respecing). So either with that in mind, or regardless, I don't consider the minor damage from burning to be that big of a deal.


See, I have a tanky warrior and another warrior (Madora) who focuses on damage. She is not built to tank, and is the one I give Phoenix Dive to. My "tank" generally doesn't want to evac out of danger (I spend a great deal of effort getting him into danger on purpose), nor does he need to be abandoning his defensive position while surrounded by melee opponents to strike down a caster deep behind enemy lines and leave the rest of the party behind him exposed and vulnerable.

So, to me Phoenix Dive is more of an offensive ability rather than a defensive ability. And it used to be really great for offensive builds.. right up until they decided to light the caster on fire.

I avoided Leech because I knew from testing that it was pretty overpowered.

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I just purchased a copy of Phoenix Dive from Daremos (Fire spell merchant unlocked in homestead)

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