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Hiver Offline OP
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How about maybe doing something like Unreal tournament devs plan to do and make some kind of a deal where the best of the mods would be sold - through Steam for ease of use - with Larian studios official support and under their control ?

We all know that the biggest mods often take some very dedicated amateur teams or individuals spending lot of time and effort.
Often years.

Im thinking that such big efforts should be rewarded in more substantial ways then just people saying "oh, nice".

With Steam there is now such a possibility.


What im thinking is basically this:

Larian studios decides which mod is good enough to enter into this specific category. They would serve as curators and quality control judges.

They would also get a part of eventual earnings - because they made all this possible and its only fair. Of course.

They would also decide for what price these few select mods would be sold.

Im thinking something in the range of a few dollars or euros... maybe up to 10 euros at the most, for the biggest and best ones. Those would be either total conversions or new original campaigns the size of OS, approximately.


All this being under Larian studios control would ensure that some of the usual cheap "hacks" we all know about aren't sold and that the devs also profit from this - which would then all go into future games development, etc, etc.




---



I think this kind of dev - fans cooperation would be very beneficial for both. In many different ways, yes?

So, im just making this suggestion for everyone to think about it.

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Well, I remember such initiative for Neverwinter Nights. "Players" made HQ mods for developers, devs (sometimes) provided voiceover for NPCs, at the end it was sold as kind of dlc. It's a good idea I think.

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Hiver Offline OP
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No need for voiceovers, i think... but whatever people decide.
I dont need them, personally. (currently im playing and disliking these two people who took over MY Source Hunters a lot. Thats certainly not my Roderick talking there and especially not MY Scarlet)

:P

...


The main point of this is to enable Larian studios to earn more from their game, expand the content and the game itself, - and enhance the community interaction which only pays back good dividends, but that modders who do the best works also get something from it, because making big mods is very demanding and costly work. In time and therefore various personal expenses.

Details would need to be thought about and arranged but overall, i think such a setup is good for everyone. Or would be, if it can be agreed upon.

If some sort of relatively simple arrangement could be made - this would be a win-win deal for everyone.



It would also result in players getting much better quality mods then its usual.



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Hi Hiver, I know this is an old post but I think your ideas are very valid ones indeed. A game like this deserves such a system and quality in mods is only a good thing. I have been browsing the forum over the last two days because I have just started a new world and completely new storyline. As you say, the hours of work are phenomenal when it comes to creating a "whole new game experience" using this wonderful engine.

Thanks for your post.

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I don't know if this qualifies, but "to the moon" game sold a lot especially with pewdiepie's let's play of the game. It was made using RPGMaker and was sold separately in steam. I don't know if a deal was made between the RPGMaker creators and "To the Moon" creator or buying the RPGMaker gives you the right to monetize all creation. Could be a good study for Larian if they were to utilize their editor this way.

Last edited by henryv; 19/07/14 12:24 AM.

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I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.

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Originally Posted by Gotcha!
I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.


Read what I just stated here:

Originally Posted by henryv
I don't know if this qualifies, but "to the moon" game sold a lot especially with pewdiepie's let's play of the game. It was made using RPGMaker and was sold separately in steam. I don't know if a deal was made between the RPGMaker creators and "To the Moon" creator or buying the RPGMaker gives you the right to monetize all creation. Could be a good study for Larian if they were to utilize their editor this way.


RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.


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Let's say I work for hours, and come up we a pretty nice script, I share for free.
You take it and use it in the mod you sell.
Wtf ?
Are you gonna pay me for my generously shared hard work ? Are you the only one to take advantage of it?
Why would I share anything if you make money out of it and I am the fool ?
So, this might be the death of sharing.
Just take Mount and blade.
Only the most prestigious mods got sold. EVERYTHING else is free, the community being very dedicated about that. Result is a very old game that still has masses of followers, because of the great spirit and mods behind them.
NWN2 toolset was free, mods were free, the community is still strong behind it.



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I can't say that I agree. I hated the whole idea of DLC when that first happened. Paying money for parts that are simply left out before release?!
I have never seen DLC worth it's price.
You know, add-ons and expansions, back in the day, they were 1/2, 2/3 or 3/4 of the price of the base game, but they added content equal to the price ratio. Paying €10 for what will likely be 1% of the game is not what I would call a fair deal.
No one who was a regular gamer before the DLC junk started would disagree. Paying more money for less content than what was established? No way.

From a business perspective, I think your idea might work out.
Unfortunately, contrary to above opinion, todays global playerbase prefers to overpay for their games. Not to mention they prefer to believe whatever lies publishers tell them, simply because it sounds promising or the marketing looks good. (Anyone remember Todd Howard? Morrowind was okay. Oblivion was crap. Skyrim is between MW and O. But barely anyone today would agree.)

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If you post your assets here, it would imho be a good idea if forum rules demanded that it's done under a CC license to begin with. Personally I would post stuff (if the editor ever comes to that) under this license...

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/
(CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International

Attribution:
You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.

NonCommercial:
You may not use the material for commercial purposes.

ShareAlike:
If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original.

That way, nobody would have a pointless argument over what to do with scripts and assets, define what people can do from the outset and the problem is solved.

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Originally Posted by henryv
RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.


The reason so many people are against monetizing mods is because it goes against everything the mod community is about. And if you can't see the difference between something like RPG Maker and a modding toolkit, I'm not sure what to say.

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Originally Posted by Gotcha!
I don't see a problem with asking for donations for your mods, but downright selling them to the public... I hope Larian (or any other game company out there) will never allow this.


I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them. Some fear if you allow selling, then everything will cost. But imo most things by far would still be free, that precedence was set a long time ago. However major makeovers are worthy of $$$. Are you paying for a Speed Mod? No. Are you paying for a model? No. A re-balance mod? No. Nehrim for Oblivion? Perhaps.

Figure this happens all the time:

Should I soak 12 months into a mod with no chance of a return as a cool community thing, while rent is still due? Or can I come up with something small to do with Unity and have a chance at it paying the land lord? We have to figure in a capitalistic world this is a common thought for anyone. I also don't think it's necessarily right that we should expect all things of this manner to be free, what have you done for a year for free in a manner like this?

If there were a way for mod'ers who create epic content to be able to sell it, you always have the right to not buy. But allowing it will bring better developers into the mix who can and will get things done. The win for you is a quality mod in the game engine you enjoy, so most things would still have the D:OS flavor in them vs an indy just making something in Unity would have zero D:OS in it.

I predict that in the next handful of years there will be this new avenue for indy development as that scene continues to expand. Someone will see this from the Main Game Dev POV and say "What the hell, why not?" (they get a % cut) and if the engine and tools are great, it will be a hit for everyone. Why have all Indy's go to 3 General Game Dev Tools, when they could choose a specific game engines to have an even faster development cycle for themselves to keep costs and time down.

I for one would certainly pay for quality, I do all the time. I'd pay for a quality expansion, a quality mod could be approaching or as good as an expansion. I am very much price/performance based, there is no reason mod couldn't be quality and there is no reason why I should expect that quality to be free when everything else costs.

If I were here to sell the idea of Kickstarter to you before it existed, I'd be laughed at and hoped to God something like that would never happen, it would destroy games. That's how general audiences work, fear of the worst. But forward to today's reality, Kickstarter is a good idea and look at what comes from it. So instead of thinking the easy "no cash for mods, non-negotiable" think of what could be if we had more and better devs developing on the D:OS Engine. Perhaps a handful of real quality offerings each year for a $5 or $10 spot that I could decide on.

For us defending capitalism everywhere, we sure want our communistic freebies! smile Only the very best, with tons of hours would ever be quality enough to ask for $.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 19/07/14 04:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them.

That is not true. In fact, the opposite is more likely.
People will see an easy way to make money and use the least amount of effort possible. Hey presto, mods that cost, but don't add a lot!
Now let's look at how modding communities are for games that are still open to modding, these days:
Modder enjoys game, enjoys modding.
Modder puts in time and effort to create something, shares it with the rest of the world.
Modder feels happy his work is enjoyed by others and continues to provide support through fixes or expansion.

Now, someone who made some easy cash will never put in more effort than they feel is 'justified' by their earnings.
You can see this happening on developer level these days. Just look at EA/Battlefield or the high amount of unfinished early access or beta games, even if the latter somehow got gold status. (Released as full game but is obviously lacking a lot.)

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
-snip-


Like Bucket said, if Larian would allow mods to be sold it'd start a shitstorm of lousy mods created through greed. Consequences could vary, but I think there'd definitely be a risk that Larian's good name would get a hit if they'd allow these practices.

There are many moddable games and many great mods created for these games. People spend a lot of time on these mods because they love making them. I spend a lot of time in my life modding lots of games as a hobby. I don't feel I should be paid for that. The software I'd create a mod for isn't my property and the tools I use are provided for me, free of charge. I count my luck that I'm even allowed by developers to mod their game in the first place.

Yes, modding is a time sink. Should you be paid for spend time? Watching 4 seasons of Game of Thrones is a time sink too. I don't think people deserve to be paid while watching though. (Strange comparison? I consider both to be hobbies.)

Modders need to pay the rent? Understandable, but making mods isn't really a job, unless you're lucky enough to work for a nice game company. So people would have to mod in their free time.
There's absolutely no problem with asking for donations though, especially because people get the chance to try out your mod without paying for it first. And if someone makes a decent campaign for D:OS, I guarantee that a lot of people will gladly donate after they see how much work was put into it.
Heck, maybe your mod would be noticed by Larian or whoever and get yourself hired.


You won't see me defending capitalism. Personally I get more and more sick of people who just try to make a quick buck wherever they can. The world would be a much nicer place with a little less greed. (+1 Romantic) (I am poor as crap by the way, and I really don't care about not participating in life's big money race.)
I'm glad most modders out there apparently feel the same. Nexus is a great example of that.

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Originally Posted by Bucket
Originally Posted by Horrorscope
I know why you think that, but you would get better quality if they could sell them.

That is not true. In fact, the opposite is more likely.
People will see an easy way to make money and use the least amount of effort possible. Hey presto, mods that cost, but don't add a lot!
Now let's look at how modding communities are for games that are still open to modding, these days:
Modder enjoys game, enjoys modding.
Modder puts in time and effort to create something, shares it with the rest of the world.
Modder feels happy his work is enjoyed by others and continues to provide support through fixes or expansion.

Now, someone who made some easy cash will never put in more effort than they feel is 'justified' by their earnings.
You can see this happening on developer level these days. Just look at EA/Battlefield or the high amount of unfinished early access or beta games, even if the latter somehow got gold status. (Released as full game but is obviously lacking a lot.)


My counters:

1. Fear of unknown territory.

2. Products for money have a fair tendency being better than free products.

3. Modders are people with bills to. Plenty of people enjoy things and make money doing it. Modders still have option of doing any of it free. I offer choice, others offer restrictions, in general the restrictions go against the norm of every day life. Expecting others to do something for your entertainment for free, however they themselves do nothing of great time for free.

4. I think we are in general wrong with thinking modders "have" to live in some type of free product environment. We don't know know what we could be missing if this wasn't the assumption. I also believe most mods would still be free as Price/Performance would have to be worth it for people to shell out dollars.

5. I look at the D:OS engine as a restricted rapid development tool. Like Unity, but less open, but faster. One world can make money and the other is expected to do it pro bono. To me it is the results of the product that should deem if something is worth selling.

Like anything unknown, there is assumption. I still fall back on things like Kickstarter, before it existed the thought of it working would in general be poo poo'd. Sort of like Uber or any other out of box start-up. That is why some people are entrepreneurs and others are hirees. It's like you have to first make the questionable step for others to see it and go "Ah ha!". Whatever you've seen with mods, imo would be more and better if there was a reasonable avenue to make some extra money from them on, again only very few great mods would ever be worthy of buying.

I'm not asking nor expecting Larian to pioneer this. But I do predict it will come, it will be a sub-set of the Indy surgence and when we look back at it, we will see it as generally a win for both sides, people deservingly so making some cash and gamers enjoying their offerings.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 19/07/14 06:03 PM.
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I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.


Right and no one would buy it, you/me aren't Bethesda. We are thinking worst case things that the market would dictate immediately. The easier things like this wouldn't change. I don't expect people to see my side much, since they are used to the status quo. What I'm saying overall is you aren't getting what you could or better yet what you want, because you dream of things that are too much to do for free.

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
-snip-


2. True in the world of solid objects. Absolutely not true in the world of software.
Some of the best software out there is available free of charge. And games wise I seem to enjoy low cost indie games a lot more than those 50/60 euro pieces of crap that big game companies pump out.
Thankfully I stopped buying EA/Ubisoft/Activision games a long time ago and Blizzard has been added to my list as well.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I think my Horse Armour DLC will be worth the $5 I charge for it. You have a choice of Elven or rugged Steel. The workload required will multiply once Larian implements mounts into the game too.

I caught your sarcasm, good sir!

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Originally Posted by dsvw56

Originally Posted by henryv
RPGMaker is a tool to create worlds and is sold at steam. Divinity Engine editor is a tool to create worlds/mods which comes in a package with Divinity Original Sin.

To the Moon is a game released separately from RPGMaker. The owner enjoys free writing and transformed it into profit. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There are others who are motivated to work for money. There are others who are motivated to work because its their hobby. To each his own.

I don't know why there is such hate at people who are motivated to do something because of monetary needs.


The reason so many people are against monetizing mods is because it goes against everything the mod community is about. And if you can't see the difference between something like RPG Maker and a modding toolkit, I'm not sure what to say.


I just disagree with the "official support" the op wanted regarding created mods. Larian and the modders should be a separate entity.

I also ask you, what is a mod community about? As I've mentioned before, there are people who are driven to work because of money or hobby. They can also be both. From the description of a mod, it is the alteration of the program code of a video game in order to make it operate in a manner different from its original version.

There are games that started from modding that tried to sell itself such as fall from heaven (Civilization IV), Magna Mundi (Europa Universalis 3), and DOTA (Warcraft III). We all know what happened with Magna Mundi as it got the axe from the publishing company, Paradox Interactive. DOTA got inevitably famous and now has a million of dollars to be given away for international tournaments. Spin offs from DOTA was also created such as Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, and the upcoming Heroes of the Storm.

I think swen mentioned about having to use the toolkit to be able to produce a game that the game creators could sell.

Now, Let's talk about risk from a modder's point of view when creating games for money. It's unfavorable against them since you said there are a lot of people that are against in monetizing mods. MOdders that do monetize also has a normal game developer's risk such as logistics, how to sell their game, and whatnot. Everything is on the negative if you look at it so why won't it defer to create their games to get some money?

EDIT: and, another point of view, how many times did you see a mod die? What is the reason of the modders most of the time? So far, I've seen Reality is in the way or probably monetary needs. There are others that die because modder's interest just diminished.

Last edited by henryv; 20/07/14 03:51 AM.

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