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Yes, I was considering naming a pig or a rat after you and Karate kiddy, but considering how childish, stupid and lame it was, I didn't follow. And still won't do it, you don't even deserve that. Pigs and rats don't deserve that either.

^^


Un chemin de 1000 lieues commence par un premier pas.

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Hiver Offline OP
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But it isnt stupid, childish and lame to mention it? And to keep up with the dimwit insults and flaming.
Not to mention how insulting it is to imply children think like you do.

The screenshot above is official. btw.

Very appropriate i would say. Of course many may think they should have made you one of the trolls, but you arent trolling. And trolls of the game are much smarter and better then that. This behavior and stupidity you exhibit repeatedly is real you, actually.


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Another pointless topic...

Modding community have always been built on devotion with no cash involved.
You want to make money with tweaking without creating anything in the first place?
Just take Unity or UE3 (they are almost free), make your own content, models, textures, scripts, role-play system, etc.
Then, spend some fortune on marketing and many months of production...
Then release your project and keep supporting it for free...
And then, some know-all will say to you if you would give him nice and neat modding tool he will make you some mods/DLC for money. What will you say to that person?

Larian CAN and WILL make their own chargeable content. Why do you think they have to share with you?
And if you think yourself such a great level designer, scripter or fount of wisdom, make your own project, go on the kickstarter and you'll see, how "easy" is this whole procedure of game creation...

The main question to Larian should be why they've promised full modding support and for now we can't even mod the good half of things in normal way. But we are still waiting the answer or even solutions to that question.

You've been given a Great Game and you want to make money while getting pleasure of it with everything ready in the first place?
In Russia, we have a folk proverb:
http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8_%F0%FB%E1%EA%F3_%F1%FA%E5%F1%F2%FC,_%E8_%ED%E0_%F5%F3%E9_%F1%E5%F1%F2%FC
(Sorry, no support of Cyrillic, had to make a link if someone is interested).
The closest analog in English is: "You cannot sell the cow and drink the milk".
Think about that.

Last edited by Samael187; 25/07/14 01:04 PM. Reason: does not support Cyrillic
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Originally Posted by Raze

- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.


While it may not be more than an annoyance in a thread like this, I do hope you consider some stricter moderation in these mods forums within the threads where we are trying to share information and grow community knowledge. It's one thing when you have an opinion thread like this, but it's another when useful information intended to build a better community and prolong the success and lifespan of D:OS is drowned out by the same people who repeatedly demonstrate that they can't hold a civil, mature conversation. There is such a thread that is in danger of becoming that now.



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Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded. Larian won't allow it either because of the danger of getting sued by other companies if a mod is monetized with elements from their IP or various rights towards that IP. Heck even free mods with certain IPs that people made for various games were gutted in the past, the most notorious studio to pull this off in the past was LucasArts with their Star Wars IP protection.

Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation. Conflict of interests still apply there.

Mod made by someone else and monetized by Larian? It's been done before with Bioware's Aurora Editor for Neverwinter Nights 1, but what no one told you is that in order to rake in part of the profit (which was VERY minimal at best), the modmakers had to fully sign over the rights of their creation to the creator of the tools used to make that mod, aka Bioware. I'm not blaming Bioware for being greedy, it's their own right to do so, they made the game and toolset after all.

In short, it's a terrible idea from a business point of view if you're the creator. I won't judge if it's a good idea or not, but the facts are there.


Loot? Did anyone say loot? I'm sure someone mentioned loot! Loot yes, precious loot... nice loot! No no, I'm not in it for the loot, it's just nice to get loot after looting! Did I mention I like loot?
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Hiver Offline OP
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What part of:


Originally Posted by Hiver

Anyway, lets see if i can make a list to present how this would go - theoretically.


1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.






- is confusing you Meynolt?

from where exactly did you pull out that someone wants to "sell mods", like - privately?

what the f... does this even mean:

Quote
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded.


or

Quote
Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation.


?

Did you read anything but the title?

Did you even read the title?

anything at all?


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Originally Posted by Meynolt
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded. Larian won't allow it either because of the danger of getting sued by other companies if a mod is monetized with elements from their IP or various rights towards that IP. Heck even free mods with certain IPs that people made for various games were gutted in the past, the most notorious studio to pull this off in the past was LucasArts with their Star Wars IP protection.

Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation. Conflict of interests still apply there.

Mod made by someone else and monetized by Larian? It's been done before with Bioware's Aurora Editor for Neverwinter Nights 1, but what no one told you is that in order to rake in part of the profit (which was VERY minimal at best), the modmakers had to fully sign over the rights of their creation to the creator of the tools used to make that mod, aka Bioware. I'm not blaming Bioware for being greedy, it's their own right to do so, they made the game and toolset after all.

In short, it's a terrible idea from a business point of view if you're the creator. I won't judge if it's a good idea or not, but the facts are there.


precisely what i was saying legal nightmare the one time i feel corporate butt rape actually works in a game communities favour

and Hiver a large subsect of the modding community does not like the idea and frankly from all intents and purposes it is not going to happen which means any arguments in favour of it are rather redundant.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
What part of:


Originally Posted by Hiver

Anyway, lets see if i can make a list to present how this would go - theoretically.


1. Larian studios make official rules about it.



2. Only whole new campaigns, standalones or total conversions would be considered for this kind of process.

Of course, Larian devs can and should specify this further, in specific details and requirements.

- Some of these mods can be sold as standalones, some as parts of a big community packs with many mods inside. Whatever would work best.



3. Only the best of the best would actually get accepted, by Larian devs, with possible partial addition of community voting.

- Devs have the final say regardless of community voting.


4. The process goes something like this:

A modder or modding team starts working on their big mod.

- When they have something playable they start releasing it to the community for testing and comments, bug and other quality assurance, maybe as sort of beta versions of their final creation.

- When they are ready and decide to go for it, they submit the mod to Larian devs for judgement.

- Larian takes in account community comments about it and then decides.



5. Any tools, scripts, hacks, tricks, or whatever else the mod contains must be shared freely.


- If the mod is non commercial this falls under usual personal rules of behavior.

- If the mod gets accepted and judged worthy by Larian studios, sharing all such tools, tricks and info becomes mandatory. Or else.

All your scripts, hacks, tools and info belongs to Larian studios.


6. The only thing that is truly yours is the content you created for such a mod. Its story, gameplay, setting, lore, characters and their dialogues - and ultimately how it plays - the gestalt of the whole.


Everything else is just you tinkering with Larian property and their creation. Which they let you to do, being nice guys as they are.



7. Since you are creating this creation of yours on their engine, the content you create, the gestalt of your game/mod is only theoretically "yours".


Its just a nice thing to say. Not anything actually legally relevant.

Larian studios is sharing their engine editor with you - therefore you will share back all you make and create with it.

Any eventual money too. Under rules and terms decided by Larian studios.



8. Dont like it? Dont apply for it.


Want to make such a mod and share it freely? Do so.






- is confusing you Meynolt?

from where exactly did you pull out that someone wants to "sell mods", like - privately?

what the f... does this even mean:

Quote
Can't do that because you (or any other modder) don't own the intellectual rights to the product you've modded.


or

Quote
Don't forget the premise either that when you make a mod, even if you do import custom art and models etc. that you're still using the program made by Larian, thus you use their software to profit on your own creation.


?

Did you read anything but the title?

Did you even read the title?

anything at all?



I'm merely stating facts and am also reflecting my post on previous comments made by other people.


Loot? Did anyone say loot? I'm sure someone mentioned loot! Loot yes, precious loot... nice loot! No no, I'm not in it for the loot, it's just nice to get loot after looting! Did I mention I like loot?
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Hiver Offline OP
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Good of you to inform me about it Hickup.
I appreciate the update on your opinion, valuable as it is.

-

If anyone has anything meaningful and relevant to say, ask or discuss - please do so. Just ignore these posts from people not capable of reading or understanding sentences written in big colored letters.

I sure will. Extending ignore privileges now.


- facts meynolt? reflecting ?

Would be nice if it had anything to do with what i suggested instead of complete nonsense completely unrelated to this discussion. Too much to hope for in your case, obviously.


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Hiver ive already pointed out that your only example that of the upcoming UT game is a broken one the engine that will be used to make content is a proprietary engine that you will have to buy into cheap as it may be its still a cost based model of 15 dollars per month. Plus Epic then retains the right to further monetize your work and as i have already stated its the "cleanest" way of doing it and the one method i have no issue with.

However taking a free modding tool for a proprietary game to make content then sell that content using any scheme seems disingenuous and frankly i can see no examples in the world where that has ever been done successfully and as i said it is also legally difficult.
Why is Epic able to do it? because they have control of that content from beginning to end even though in all honesty i see this blowing up in their faces eventually time will tell.

Furthermore this charging for mods upfront i will not agree to no matter what scheme your suggesting (in this example colluding with larian), the simple fact of the matter is it would be charging for mods upfront, i don't know how you believe that your carefully worded side step changes that on the user end of things you are being charged upfront. there are quite a few studio quality modifications for skyrim another community that ive been involved with faalskar being a very good example even so much so bethesda gave the creator an honorable mention but in the end it was still a modification of their game using their modding tool.

Furthermore ive seen community packs for games included in official content for many a game but it was never ever charged for the only game your clinging to with any iota of precedence in this scheme even working A: hasn't been released yet B:Still requires a paid for engine so my argument still stands no developer has ever allowed monetization of a "mod"

and one can only judge the future based on what has happened in the past can larian break the mold? sure they can, have they? no they have not, do i want them to? hell no! i love this game its the only rpg since skyrim ive found with any promise.

And in concluding every mod hoster meaning third party sites that host game modifications have rules against monetization nexusmods, modsdb, steamworkshop, meaning paid for work could not be posted to any of them which further cements my point that every major name in the modding community is firmly against the idea of mod monetization in anyform and since larian has integrated steam workshop i believe they have to adopt SW's policy yes you can host elsewhere but once again a whole other can of worms and headaches i doubt larian would want to take on.

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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Quote
If Larian said "Want to sell your mods on our marketplace? No problem, we take 10% of the sales and you get the rest" I can GUARANTEE YOU the result would be stunning and high quality mods.

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.

If anyone could guarantee anything, Larian would already have a policy in place regarding commercialization of mods. There are no guarantees, and there are no absolute facts in this regard. If you want to back up your opinions with examples of other games, etc, then do so.

Given the complaints about this topic, there may be a few deletions as I read through the rest of it...

Well that was kind of pointless. For those who complained:
- Some of posts did go off topic, but pretty much everything worth saying on topic was said before then, and the topic isn't completely derailed. It may or may not return to actual debate on the topic.
- The juvenile insults and condescending attitudes in some posts did not rise to a level requiring moderation.


Dungeons and Dragons 3.0.

They did something with that system that no one had ever done before. They made it open source. The end result was legions of books, addons, spinoffs, you name it.

Though it's a different medium in some respects the fact remains that by allowing other people to earn income off of their base game they made 3.5 *the* system to beat even a decade on later. To this day it remains arguably the most popular tabletop gaming system ever.

Again, it's an imperfect example. One is print, one is digital... but the basis is that a company puts out a product that comes preset with the belief the users may modify it as they see fit, and that selfsame company allowed others to profit off that system.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
Good of you to inform me about it Hickup.
I appreciate the update on your opinion, valuable as it is.

-

If anyone has anything meaningful and relevant to say, ask or discuss - please do so. Just ignore these posts from people not capable of reading or understanding sentences written in big colored letters.

I sure will. Extending ignore privileges now.


- facts meynolt? reflecting ?

Would be nice if it had anything to do with what i suggested instead of complete nonsense completely unrelated to this discussion. Too much to hope for in your case, obviously.



I don't really understand the hostility you pose towards me personally, I did answer with facts to your question and also based said response towards comments of other people. You're not the center of the universe and frankly, I fully understand why some people are brash towards you because you don't seem to show the other any type of respect at all. I suggest a mod closes this thread down asap as it only serves to bait people into a very obvious troll post.


Loot? Did anyone say loot? I'm sure someone mentioned loot! Loot yes, precious loot... nice loot! No no, I'm not in it for the loot, it's just nice to get loot after looting! Did I mention I like loot?
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Originally Posted by Windemere
While it may not be more than an annoyance in a thread like this, I do hope you consider some stricter moderation in these mods forums within the threads where we are trying to share information and grow community knowledge.

Good point, and yes, anything off topic in a help topic is fair game for deletion.

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Refusing to moderate your own forums will result in the same thing that happened with the global chat in the game.

You are already overrun with mass market players and by not doing anything at all about blatant flaming, insults and off topic posts spamming you are actually supporting such posters and that mentality.


-


Meynolt, saying your post is nonsense and that you arent even replying to my suggestion here - which you then actually confirmed - is not hostility towards you personally, however you might want to paint it like that to play a victim and so demand special actions to be taken.

You may also learn to quote posts you are replying too, although it would be better if you could understand those posts are completely nonsensical reactions from a few posters that failed to read and understand my simple suggestion.

Replying to them makes your post even more irrelevant and nonsensical in this thread.
Demanding this thread to be closed and intentionally lying about it somehow being a "troll post" sufficiently reveals the same distorted psychology.



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Perhaps people will learn to ignore those who get on their nerves, avoid making offhanded insults or responding to such, or reacting to perceived attacks, etc, and there will be no need of anything more than occasional moderation.

You are on the receiving end of some of those complaints. Should I do the moderating you want me to do, or them? Or both?

I'm pretty sure everyone figures their insults and off topic posts are somehow justifiable (because they are 'right' or being attacked, or whatever), while other such posts are not. There are also some posts that are perceived as rude or an attack when that was not the intent, which may then cause someone to become overly defensive, etc.

I will lock topics that get derailed and delete posts that get too out of hand, but if you want heavy handed moderation, it'll be in the form of blanket bans and deletions. I'm about as likely to try to sort out who 'started it' as parents are with 5 year olds (and that's about the maturity level involved whenever anything happens that would require moderation).

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Hiver Offline OP
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Perhaps.

Perhaps things will sort themselves out and everything will be great just by itself.
Thats a reasonable expectation.

Perhaps the forums will be drowned in spam posts the examples of which already distort this thread heavily. Their motivations being exceedingly clear and simplistic. Based on misunderstanding and overblown reactions to their own misunderstanding to boot.

You will lock topics that get derailed?
So... that means anyone who doesnt like to even hear a suggestion like i made here can just come into the topic, keep derailing it by spamming flaming, incoherent posts and then have it locked?

Dont you realize who that kind of behavior supports, inevitably?

Am i then supposed to go into threads i dont like and spam them to hell?

Quote
You are on the receiving end of some of those complaints. Should I do the moderating you want me to do, or them? Or both?

Take a wild guess.
- Both of course.


Quote
but if you want heavy handed moderation,


How about any, instead? How about some smart moderation instead of complete extremes of none and nuclear bombardment from orbit?

-



Last edited by Hiver; 27/07/14 12:14 PM.
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The rewards for making a large mod are manifold. First and foremost the creative process itself is a reward. That is why you should be doing it.

Second, if you make something good, you and your contributors will get publicity. This might open up opportunities that were previously unavailable for you. A lot of successful game developers started out this way. But they worked for free for years first.

So you may well see economical rewards, but they will be far down the road. You might get offered a job or you might be able to ask for donations to make another mod of the same quality. If you are really really good/lucky, you might get offered a deal to monetize your mod.

But as long as you are modding and not making your own game (which is a lot harder), I think it is best to assume that you are not getting paid.


Join #TheDivinityEngine at irc.gamesurge.net, help build a live modding community! Related forum topic here.
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I suppose it would be possible to sell a mod to Larian but the question is that are they interested in "Buying" a high quality mods and releasing them as an official DLC ?

I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod. Of course, that was not a high quality mod and I had to create a lightmap post-prosessor, GFF file parser, inport/export scripts and utilities for Blender to allow a creation of a custom models. I don't think that I would make the same deal again just to get a few people to congratulate. I suppose there are people who are motivated or engouraged by seeing a high number in a download counter and that can be archived by creating a sex mods not with a quests and story content. (Base on DA:O experience)

I have downloaded the Divinity Engine Toolkit a while ago and I have already spend about 30 hours to study it and creating a level artwork. The problem is that I don't really know is there any point to invest efforts for a bigger mod or just create a tiny-mod for fun.

Of course, the question of selling a mods would lead to an other problem: How would a modder know if he has any changes to get his mod released as an official DLC ? Also, I suppose, someone might pull his hair off after spending a lot of time making a mod and then realize that his mod is not good enough to qualify.

Originally Posted by Rymdkejsaren
But as long as you are modding and not making your own game (which is a lot harder), I think it is best to assume that you are not getting paid.


Yes, I agree.

Last edited by BioSpirit; 27/07/14 01:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by BioSpirit
I made a mod for the Dragon Age: Origins called "Hilltop Under Siege" and it took somewhere around 400 to 500 hours of work to create the mod.


Hey, I was a huge fan of that mod. Glad to see you here and hope you decide to stick around. Would love to see more of your work.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
So... that means anyone who doesnt like to even hear a suggestion like i made here can just come into the topic, keep derailing it by spamming flaming, incoherent posts and then have it locked?

If the topic as a whole is derailed, it can be locked. If individuals are spam flaming, those posts can be deleted and temporary/permanent bans given.

I consider a topic derailed when it is irredeemably off topic. People are free to post in public topics that they they didn't fully read, or didn't understand, or simply have a difference of opinion about. There is no way to stop that, just like there is no way to stop people from posting to ask a question that was answered in another post near the top of the forum list, or which a forum search would have quickly resolved.


Originally Posted by Hiver
Both of course, wtf is wrong with you?

Well, while I do have a problem with your tone and language in some instances, some of which are partially justifiable (in terms of tone), I believe overall you have been a net contributor to this forum, and do not deserve to be banned.
Does that really make me so wrong?


Originally Posted by Hiver
If you or anyone else would bother to keep things a bit more civil

Pot, meet kettle.


Originally Posted by Hiver
How about any, instead? How about some smart moderation instead of complete extremes of none and nuclear bombardment from orbit?

Unfortunately, I can not speed read, and my focus is on technical support first. I am getting caught up in the forum, but at the moment I can not follow every discussion as it progresses (some I don't even see until someone hits the Notify button). Perhaps additional warning posts or faster deletion of off topic posts would have more of an influence than previous warning posts. While I will try to do so soon, in general these disputes could easily be resolved on their own if the people involved acted reasonably, or at least respectfully.


Originally Posted by Hiver
by not doing anything you will let a specific kind of posters rule the forums and control who says what.

Lack of moderation allows anyone to post their opinion. That is kind of the point of freedom of speech. At most I would want to influence / moderate the way people express what they say (in some case), not the actual content of what they say.

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