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Hi,

At first I want to thank you for making such a wonderful game! I've been playing Divine Divinity a lot and Original Sin has it's spirit and it's even better. One of the best games of all times in my opinion. It's what I've been waiting for since years. Skyrim is a toy for little kids compared to your game. Now about the topic:

I found character who has comeback kid and leech same time can't die. At least it seems to be like that. I think the reason of this is leech talent healing him after each strike, so character's HP can't drop to 1 (and in such case comeback kid check always gives a positive result). Personally, I think it will be better to remove them both and introduce some less "cheaty" talents. It will be good for balance IMHO.

Last edited by Pawel.pc44; 05/07/14 10:40 PM.
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Or just not make them work with each other. Like you can't use your own blood for leech, or make leech work at the end of the round so you can still die in said round.

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Don't forget, you don't bleed if you get hit with Magic. It's particularly useful to keep a balance between Warriors and Mages, it's kind of needed to be a successful tank.

Honestly when the game throws enemies in greater numbers than yours, shooting CCs left and right and Warriors have such long cooldowns and spend their time in the frontlines, they need this. It's the only thing that makes getting a warrior worth it.

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It is strong, but not godly. Getting hit after resisting death = death.

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Originally Posted by frotty
It is strong, but not godly. Getting hit after resisting death = death.


Only if you were hit with magic and thus did not leech your blood.

Comeback kid gives a 100% roll to resist death if your health is >1, and it can occur infinity times a round.

The problem isn't the combo being too strong. Comeback Kid is the only thing that makes it actually worth getting 5 Willpower, and it still doesn't stop you from getting mashed by ridiculous elemental damage which a decent amount of enemies use.

The problem is that Madora starting with comeback kid is ridiculous because she doesn't have to invest a ton of points into willpower to make the combo work.

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Balance is of no importance in a single player, or non-competitive, game. D:OS is not a competitive game - it only has co-op mode. So the "patch" for a talent pair being too powerful is to not choose those talents when you level up.

This game isn't made for one person and their preferences. If you find something that works badly, don't use it. If you find something that makes the game too easy for you, don't use it. But don't ask that the game be changed because you don't like something in it that clearly works and has - especially in its component parts - real value.

I would guess that for everyone who thinks something is too powerful, there's at least one other person who wants it for their own enjoyment. Some people like an easymode stroll through a game. Some are masochistic grognards. It takes both and everyone in between to make an audience for a game.

And just because it bears repeating - balance is of no importance in a single player or non-competitive game. It's literally made for people to be able to win at it. Logical results from that should be unsurprising.

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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
Balance is of no importance in a single player, or non-competitive, game. D:OS is not a competitive game - it only has co-op mode. So the "patch" for a talent pair being too powerful is to not choose those talents when you level up.

This game isn't made for one person and their preferences. If you find something that works badly, don't use it. If you find something that makes the game too easy for you, don't use it. But don't ask that the game be changed because you don't like something in it that clearly works and has - especially in its component parts - real value.

I would guess that for everyone who thinks something is too powerful, there's at least one other person who wants it for their own enjoyment. Some people like an easymode stroll through a game. Some are masochistic grognards. It takes both and everyone in between to make an audience for a game.

And just because it bears repeating - balance is of no importance in a single player or non-competitive game. It's literally made for people to be able to win at it. Logical results from that should be unsurprising.


I really can't believe you typed any of that.

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Originally Posted by Kurochi
Don't forget, you don't bleed if you get hit with Magic. It's particularly useful to keep a balance between Warriors and Mages, it's kind of needed to be a successful tank.

Honestly when the game throws enemies in greater numbers than yours, shooting CCs left and right and Warriors have such long cooldowns and spend their time in the frontlines, they need this. It's the only thing that makes getting a warrior worth it.

Meh,

I normally run 3 mages + madora as a 2h user, she has 100% resists to all elements, I just rain destruction down right on top of her, my summons and any enemies in the area. The only thing that can kill her is melee and leech + comeback make that effectively impossible.

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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
Balance is of no importance in a single player, or non-competitive, game. D:OS is not a competitive game - it only has co-op mode. So the "patch" for a talent pair being too powerful is to not choose those talents when you level up.


That's strange, because it seems most of the game developers do care about balance in SINGLE PLAYER.

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This game isn't made for one person and their preferences. If you find something that works badly, don't use it. If you find something that makes the game too easy for you, don't use it. But don't ask that the game be changed because you don't like something in it that clearly works and has - especially in its component parts - real value.


And that's funny. You're saying the game isn't made for one person, but you're writing like it was made only for you and others have no right to say anything about it. I don't like such attitude, so if you don't agree and have nothing constructive to say just leave, please.

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I would guess that for everyone who thinks something is too powerful, there's at least one other person who wants it for their own enjoyment. Some people like an easymode stroll through a game. Some are masochistic grognards. It takes both and everyone in between to make an audience for a game.


Judging the game as a whole it's certainly not an easy one. It's a true cRPG, so such combo seems to be a bug. Sorry, but you make no sense to me.

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And just because it bears repeating - balance is of no importance in a single player or non-competitive game. It's literally made for people to be able to win at it. Logical results from that should be unsurprising.


To bad it's just your opinion and doesn't reflect reality. I'd like to hear the response from developers rather than some weekend player. D:OS is not stupid Skyrim, so such high bonus which makes character indestructible in many cases points to bug.

Last edited by Pawel.pc44; 06/07/14 07:02 AM.
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Cain with Comeback kid and Leech and Weather.

>IMMUNE TO MAGIC AND UNKILLABLE BY PHYSICAL

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"Balance is of no importance in single player"

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.
I bet you think cheating and savescumming is also ok "because it's single player".
Balance is fundamental in any game in existance, regardless if they are solo games or multi-player.
If you want easy mode, there already is. Options -> Game -> Difficulty.
I hate how the new generations want to play on Normal/Hard while having an Easy game.
Makes me think of Radious total war mods that make the game ultra easy even on legendary difficulty.
As someone on this forum said "the partecipation trophy generation".

Also, the "if something is OP don't use it" argument isn't a valid one.
I shouldn't be excluded from using a skill from a game just because the devs didn't balance it: I expect them to patch it up. And they will.

Last edited by Falcus; 06/07/14 05:28 PM.
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They might patch it up. They might not.

That is a 5 WP talent.

Also, everyone, try to remember that your way of playing is not the right way for anyone other than you. Sounds fatuous - kind of is, actually - bit it's worth remembering that something of mild importance to you might be really a game changer for someone else.

Up to the devs to decide what fits their image of the game.

And the modders!

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Last edited by Gyson; 06/07/14 05:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Pawel.pc44

And that's funny. You're saying the game isn't made for one person, but you're writing like it was made only for you and others have no right to say anything about it. I don't like such attitude, so if you don't agree and have nothing constructive to say just leave, please.


No, I'm not. There's a fundamental difference in what you're suggesting and what I am. You say two talents in combination are too powerful, and your suggestion to fix it is to patch it out of the game, removing the ability of anyone to use it. "I don't want it, so don't let anyone else use it." I submit that the more appropriate fix is "I don't want it, so I won't use it." What I'm doing, in fact, is arguing *in favor of anyone with a different opinion than yours* to allow them to continue using one or both of those talents. It's entirely constructive, even if it's not what you want to hear/read.

Originally Posted by Pawel.pc44

Judging the game as a whole it's certainly not an easy one. It's a true cRPG, so such combo seems to be a bug. Sorry, but you make no sense to me.

It's actually quite easy. I've been playing turn-based strategy games for 25 or 30 years, depending on how you define early-genre games like Archon or M.U.L.E. on the Commodore64. I'd never suggest that someone design a TBS so that I'm challenged by it; I just impose my own challenges. Similarly, I'd never suggest that a TBS that's too hard for me be toned down; I just drop the difficulty setting. Why is this such an offensive idea to you?

Originally Posted by Pawel.pc44

To bad it's just your opinion and doesn't reflect reality. I'd like to hear the response from developers rather than some weekend player. D:OS is not stupid Skyrim, so such high bonus which makes character indestructible in many cases points to bug.


English probably isn't your native language, so I'm not taking offense from your wording. I couldn't have this conversation with you in...what? Polish? Russian? Pawel seems an appropriate name for that. So please understand when I tell you this: you've misunderstood what I wrote.

Originally Posted by Falcus

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.
I bet you think cheating and savescumming is also ok "because it's single player".
Balance is fundamental in any game in existance, regardless if they are solo games or multi-player.
If you want easy mode, there already is. Options -> Game -> Difficulty.
I hate how the new generations want to play on Normal/Hard while having an Easy game.
Makes me think of Radious total war mods that make the game ultra easy even on legendary difficulty.
As someone on this forum said "the partecipation trophy generation".

Of course I think it's OK to savescum and cheat in a single player game. Nobody's playing for money or fame, so there are no overarching rules. Single player games are for fun and practice. Why do you think that world Chess and Go masters aren't rated against machines, but rather against other players? Because it's only in fair competition that "better" matters. Why do you suppose cheat codes are built into so many games? Because it's not up to the game-maker to decide always how the player should enjoy the game. I've beaten the original XCOM (UFO Unknown) on Superhuman with a single soldier, because the game wasn't hard enough to challenge me. I'm stuck on the last two sectors of Jagged Alliance 2 playing with a squad of four mercs using only knives. I don't need any TBS to be easier, but the OP wants to take away powerful tools from the game just because he doesn't want to use them, when not using is - literally - as simple as using a toggle. Don't toggle on (select) both of those talents. The argument "if something is OP don't use it" is absolutely valid. Did you really think that in a game as wildly permissive as D:OS that the only difficulty adjustment was a global switch? That's not imaginative at all.

EDITED: spelling

Last edited by OneFiercePuppy; 06/07/14 04:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy

Nobody's playing for money or fame, so there are no overarching rules.


This is a distinct lack of understanding towards what motivates people to play games. Some do it for money (e-sports), some do it for fame (achievements, speed-runs, e-sports again). We each have our reasons for playing, and they're not always the same.

Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy

Single player games are for fun and practice. Why do you think that world Chess and Go masters aren't rated against machines, but rather against other players? Because it's only in fair competition that "better" matters.


I believe it to be ignorant to consider something like this. It takes us back to our motivations for playing games. Some enjoy engaging in social activities, be them co-op or competitive (multiplayer), others like solitude and playing alone (singleplayer). Each game sets out to deliver an experience the developers want to pursue. I do not believe Dark Souls 2 was developed to be practice for its PvP, or Starcraft 2's campaign to be practice for its multiplayer. Of course, you are free to see them as you wish. We each experience games differently.

Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy

Why do you suppose cheat codes are built into so many games?
Because it's not up to the game-maker to decide always how the player should enjoy the game.


Most cheat codes are built into the game during development in order to aid the developers in testing mechanics and features without wasting a lot of time (debugging). That they are left in is a service to players, but I have a hard time looking at them as a valid option of play (especially since they're almost never advertised within the game).

The goal of the developers is to create an experience (what you get from the game) by using gameplay (what you do in the game). You can't force the player to enjoy it the way you want to, but the aim is to create opportunities for that.

Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy

I don't need any TBS to be easier, but the OP wants to take away powerful tools from the game just because he doesn't want to use them, when not using is - literally - as simple as using a toggle. Don't toggle on (select) both of those talents. The argument "if something is OP don't use it" is absolutely valid.


Another development goal is to offer the player meaningful choices. That means, each choice should be valid in its own right and it's up to the player to decide which better fits his play style. Having one choice that is clearly superior to anything else breaks the balance of the game. Why would the player choose an inferior tool? Why would he act in a masochistic manner?

Here is where you balance the dominating strategy in order to allow the player to have meaningful decisions.

Singleplayer games need to be balanced in a way that it is fair towards the player, and in a way that it can challenge them from start to finish. The level of challenge is of course decided by the developers at the start, together with the intended audience.

Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy

Did you really think that in a game as wildly permissive as D:OS that the only difficulty adjustment was a global switch? That's not imaginative at all.


It's great to have games where you can be creative in your approach at handling the challenges presented, but that doesn't mean you should give the player the "Sword of InstaKills" and expect him to never use it because it will ruin his experience. That's bad design.

Magicka is a game that comes to mind in terms of having a huge amount of options at your disposal. Even so, you ended up using certain spells more often than others due to their power and efficiency (Earth... :P). I believe this hurt the variety in the game to a certain degree.




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Instead of asking them to take the talents completely out (a pretty extreme solution), why not just make the two talents mutually exclusive?

I'm reminded of a game where they had a character that had one strong build combo. The devs must have been like you and heavily nerfed every single skill in that combo a week later. Now the skills are useless even outside of the combo and the character is not used anymore.

In the meantime though, before the devs can get to this, you CAN choose to not use the combo since it offends you. That's really all you can do.

I think the point being made here by the others is that they choosing to abuse this talent combo in their game is really non of your concern and doesn't affect you in the least in your game.

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Obviously, comeback kid should have at least a 1 turn cooldown. This is the simplest solution to the problem.

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When picking a character build I like to find synergies between skills. However I also try to use some common sense.

It's quite obvious these two talents shouldn't work together the way they do and is undoubtedly getting patched at some point.

The way Comeback kid should work is quite clear, and IMO not good enough to warrant a pick. If you have 1 enemy left making only 1 attack it's potentially godlike (when you can heal in your turn) but with lets say 4 enemies each making 2 attacks per round, surviving 1 attack won't help you all that much.

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As Simulacrum suggested, I believe that Comeback kid should protect your character from death for an entire turn (regardless of how many times you are hit), but then enter an internal cooldown of 1 or 2 turns if not more.
I makes it a useful perk to have in combat, but it prevents it from being the core of a character (go in, don't die... ever).


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Originally Posted by OneFiercePuppy
I've beaten the original XCOM (UFO Unknown) on Superhuman with a single soldier


The bullshit is strong. Short of a fluke where you managed to start with a 100 psi strength soldier who also had amazing stats you would lose every single mission against mind control. Since you can't see psi strength until you capture a psi enabled alien...

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