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Joined: Jul 2014
morez Offline OP
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First of all, although i didnt back the kickstarter campaign (somehow missed it) i followed develepment of this game for some time with great interest, especially triggered by the powerful editor which comes with the game.

Couple of years ago (6-8) I messed around a lot with the NWN2 toolset aswell including importing assets into the game and retextured models.

As I am still waiting to find shared time for the coop campaign ( i can't wait to play this formidable game finally, so far just did some fast beta runs and loved it so far). Thereofore in the meanwhile I started to have an initial look at the editor and I couldn't resist to compare everything to NWN2 toolset (although the games are different and so the editors), and raising question about the possibilities and limits of the divinity engine (which is far more than just the editor).
I really see the potential of this game and the engine, just curious where are the limits (which can be pushed once again;)

What is the good, the bad and the ugly? I am sharing my first impression, please feel free to complete as my list will be rather uncomplete.


  • Very first impression was, the Divinity Toolkit is less intuitive, but after some videos and guides, i doesnt make a difference so much.
  • the whole pathfinding, AiGrid / Walkmesh seems to be far better than NWN2: This was a huge issue and one of the main failures of NWN2 and I remember creating unplayable areas. (also resources seem to be handled more effectively)
  • Rotating on all 3 axes. Rihaa! I was selling my soul for that back in the days with NWN.
  • So far I couldnt find any tint-function based on RGB-tint-maps. This was rather genius with NWN2. Especially for retexturing work. I found in the textures DM (diffuse maps), NM (Normalmaps) SM (specular maps?) and some werid MSK. Though some of the SM and MSK look like RGB tint maps (with one color). Well Skin and hair is tinted. My question if that's possible for armor/bodyparts, placeables and items.
  • Regarding the tinting of placeables, i remember seeing a kickstarter video where they introduced the powerful material editor and applied all kind of material on a statue. I shouted out loud for happiness when i saw that. How much hours I spend to retexture models just because we needed a different material.
    This partly could make the tint function obsolete, though didnt find out how to do that so far.
  • The wall function for houses looks like a really good solution (instead of tilesets), though seems to be rather limited so far what you can do.
  • I love to play in isometric view, though also would like to have a look around option. As far as i could see, is that the out of the box assets are not made for different viewing ankles. The skyboxes are also limited. My question is, if this is rather a limit of assets or the engine aswell?
  • Plugins could help a lot, as they also really pimped up the NWN2 toolset to its p
  • Overall handling is fine, though would like to be able to do more with Shift, Ctrl, Alt Keys plus mouse R+L


Questions raised in my head:
  • How will be the whole file handling and import export of assets?
  • What amount of resources (placeables in the came) the game can handle to stay playable. ( I saw the Cyseal area is actually one huge area)
  • what are legal and technical restrictions to import (custom) assets from NWN2 (OMG nwvault.ign.com is down since some days)
  • What functions of NWN definately will never be possible with the divinity engine (more than 8 players, skydome with actual moving sun moon stars, ...)?


That's it for now, I certainly will find more things and would be very interested to hear your (to you ol' NWN people now messing around again with the editor) opinion as would be flattered by any answers to my questionsby larian or insiders.

cheers

Joined: Jun 2014
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Having also spent a ton of time working with the NWN 1&2 tool sets, I found myself more than a little off put by the control scheme... Also its lack of activity feedback. I can tell that it was built for function and little else. But after a while I warmed up it.

Currently, my primary issue is the fact that ambient sounds don't stop when returning to editor mode, from game mode. They just loop indefinitely... If this is a bug, or if there is something I am missing, someone please point it out. wink

Lastly, what I am most looking forward to is the scripting. I have not looked very hard, but I see no attempts made to explaining it, nor dialogue. All tutorials and guides simply say both will be addressed/explained later.



"Sooner or later, reality becomes a quaint idea that most 'suffer' only when needed." - RogueDeus
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I agree on it needing to be more intuitive. and it needs to be able also to edit packs and whatnot. but overall, very powerful it appears to be.

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I have used both the NWN 1 & 2 toolsets well. This new game and toolset look very promising!

But besides from little information about scripting and story/conversation editing, there are some other important basic issues in the Divinity Toolset which come to my mind while fiddling around with it:

1. Lack of easy editing of creature statistics, abilities, etc.
2. Lack of easy editing of items, objects, etc.
3. Lack of easy editing of player abilities, spells, and other essential game mechanics.

I know it is possible to unpack files and changing at least some of the things above, but at least in regard to point nr. 1 we need to be able to handle this quickly and easily from within the editor. Anything else would be very time consuming and unpractical.

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Originally Posted by The Rule Lawyer
1. Lack of easy editing of creature statistics, abilities, etc.
2. Lack of easy editing of items, objects, etc.
3. Lack of easy editing of player abilities, spells, and other essential game mechanics.

I haven't ever used the NWN2 toolset so I can't exactly follow this thread except for some notes which overlap with the NWN1 Aurora Editor. I used the NWN1 editor myself and the things you mentioned above is all I miss in terms of mod creation und usability that would make things much easier in the Divinity Engine and add an extremely huge pile of joy (what did you expect I would write here? :P) on top of what's already a joyful modding experience (for me).
These three points is what made the NWN modding experience so enjoyable for me apart from the great game(play) it was made around.

RogueDeus, open the Atmosphere panel, there you go to Varia and scroll down to ambient sound. Try to use the stop button. I didn't try that so far, but it should (theoretically) stop all ambient sounds (the map-ambience such as stuff like torch sounds) and if you have music (which I never even got working nor playing in the editor for whatever reason) you can also stop the music playback.

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I still fear that the divnity toolset is inadequate...

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Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
I still fear that the divnity toolset is inadequate...


An unfounded fear that was created by people who couldn't be bothered to take the time to learn.

I have been able to make this toolset do every single thing I wanted it to do and more.

I really can't figure out why people keep saying it's bad.

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Dark_Ansem, what exactly are you trying to do with the toolset that can't be done from your viewpoint?

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Originally Posted by Burgee
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
I still fear that the divnity toolset is inadequate...


An unfounded fear that was created by people who couldn't be bothered to take the time to learn.

I have been able to make this toolset do every single thing I wanted it to do and more.

I really can't figure out why people keep saying it's bad.


As I said before, you knowing something does not equal everyone else, or indeed anyone but you, knowing something. Yes, what I am saying is that it's quite possible that your knowledge of the editor is on par with barely 5 people on this forum that REALLY know the editor. And none of them share their knowledge in a condensed way. Which is why modding is in a zombie state wink

The editor needs to be simple to use for simple things, it needs Wizards for common used functions (equipment, dialog and animation scripting), it needs a MAJOR overhaul of the scripting language (Else if!) and it needs to include a proper script guide inside the editor, not have us write dialog animation and movement scripts for characters in a different window with no syntax help etc.... It needs to support complicated modding and it needs to support import of new animated meshes, character models, races and stats and abilities, editing spells and creating new save/load routines for character stats and variables so they are kept between chapters in multiple modules (And not between 1 big module only)

Currently it does nothing of the sort.

Or basically, you can make mods, but you can't make TC's wink And TC's are where D:OS had the greatest potential. Sadly it's use of RadGameTools makes any hope futile. Even if the editor had superb Tutorials and superb Wizards, it uses RadGameTools. And that means we are locked out of major parts of the feature set we need to create TC's.

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The issue with the toolset is people just won't take the time to learn it is all.

I make a point to check these forums daily and help out as MUCH as I can to keep the community going. I learned it mostly on my own between a full time job and a wife. I have no official training in coding or scripting or editing, just did it out of passion.

The editor doesn't need wizards for everything - it's more powerful because you're not limited by wizards simplifying things.

The dialog editor is really similar to the NWN2 editor IIRC, maybe I'm wrong on that one, and the scripting does come with syntax help.

I'm not here to defend the editor, I'm here to help grow the community. But posts like this thread serve no purpose except to scare off a would be modder because somebody decided the editor was "inadequate".

Refusal to learn doesn't mean the editor isn't powerful or adequate. That's all I was stating in this thread, and now I'm going to direct my attention to continue to work with this editor and with anyone who might need assistance using it.

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Originally Posted by Burgee
I have been able to make this toolset do every single thing I wanted it to do and more.


Have you figured out how to make an atmosphere trigger get triggered without moving your player into the trigger? Or I guess more generally, have you implemented an environmental day/night cycle yet that isn't dependent on the player moving around inside the area? Serious question.


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I played a lot with the atmosphere trigger. I've found you can trigger it if the player is idle by setting the player character offstage and instantly onstage again after you make the change to the trigger as long as the player is standing in the trigger. It worked kind of sporadically, but I think it was a step in the right direction.

My other idea was to teleport the player off the map and into a waiting trigger, then back to his current location instantly. I never tested it, I don't know how jarring it would be or if it would even be noticed due to the speed of the script execution. (This wouldn't work I'm guessing because the player wouldn't remain inside the trigger)

I actually read a lot of your post regarding the subject when I was working on it.

The issue I did run into (and eventually moved away from working on for the time being) is my atmosphere trigger kept becoming corrupt when I used the script to change the atmosphere settings of it - but this was likely due to my own mistake. I didn't work too long on it.

Edit:
The day night cycle I did end up using is present in my mod "Zombie Time". It's a short little mod that was an experiment in scripting and its not super high quality mapping-wise. It makes heavy use of timers and CharacterVariables to run the Day night cycle and the hunger system.

Last edited by Burgee; 18/12/14 04:09 PM.
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Thanks for the info. Sill sounds like it essentially needs to be hacked in ugly ways to work. It's something that ought to be very basic to implement and I'm hoping that in Swen's recently expressed desire to make improvements to the engine, they'll make this right.


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thanks for everyone for making my point.
Sigh, I miss the Aurora. Even if it did not allow any mechanics modding.


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