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So, I just hit level 18 and have had a play around with the endgame spells. Were these even tested?

Chain Lightning: I haven't seen it hit more than two targets so far, rather than the number its tooltip specifies. This one really just needs a fix and it ought to be fine.

Storm: Not worth the AP by any stretch of the imagination through sheer unreliability. I'm pretty sure I've seen it hit inanimate objects, I've certainly seen it hit my own character (one storm somehow hit its own caster 3 times in the 2 rounds instead of the 6 available enemies). This spell doesn't so much need a buff as it needs to be more consistent, a flat number of targets per turn, targeting only enemies. The graphical effect should also be persistent for the duration.

Meteor Shower: The only spell that really shines at level 18. Hits hard and hits quite reliably. My only query is the number of meteors, either there aren't actually 8 or the effects are playing up. At any rate, this spell should be the measuring stick for the others' effectiveness.

Hail Attack: /Sigh. A lower damage meteor shower that almost never hits anything. My record number of hits so far with the hailstones is one, usually it doesn't hit anything. This one badly needs a buff, just giving it the splash radius of meteor shower would instantly fix the problem. I also have doubts about the number of projectiles, same as meteor shower.

Earthquake: Yes, let's knock over half of our own party, that's always a good idea. If I had to suggest one change for this, make it a targeted AoE instead of being centred on the caster. With the sheer size of the AoE it'll still be a stretch not to catch your own party, but at least it won't be guaranteed to.

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Hail Attack is a lower damage meteor shower that almost never hits anything (that's true) but when it does, it gets a freeze chance* and same for Chain Lightning, which when you cast rain before, is a massively effective crowd control spell (especially when your own guys are immune to stun) (Hail attack is super useful in the end-fight ,p)

Aside that, I agree..

The end-game spells are a bit uninspired too.

Geomancers for example, could have gotten a Golem Summon with massively boosted geomancer spells (epic versions of default spells)

Air mage could have gotten Ball of Lightning that shoots 3 or 4 giant balls of AOE lightning balls at the battlefield in arcs. Like the spore spell ;p

Water mages could have gotten magic that creates a ZONE (aka, blob) of water, that drowns enemies within, applies wet, and when lightning is applied further, creates a death zone deluxe. Where every move gets 4 or so triggers to apply stun/lightning damage...

I am also missing the simple and yet extremely awesome DnD like spells... like... Power word: Death , cloud-of-death. And exploding skull ;p But we can't have everything...

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This is a bit disappointing haha. I have 2 mages so i can try out all the cool high tier spells >.>

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They did a lot of cool things with the way the environmental effects interact with each other. All the rain, smoke, poisonous gas, tornadoes, explosions, lightning chaining through blood and water alike, etc.; all of it is really awesome. They've in this game done environmental effects in-combat better than any other game I've played.

But sadly, the spells themselves are really boring and uninspired for the most part. The early-midgame ones are functional and do what you expect spells of that level to do, but the end-game ones are pretty lame, if they're worth casting at all considering their AP costs and frequent unreliability.

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Yup, that's my issue, they cost a ton of AP and frequently do less than a spell half their cost could.

e4e4s3r: I don't have a problem with what chain lightning is supposed to do, I have an issue with the fact that it pretty much never does it. Like I said, I've never seen it hit more than two targets before fizzling out, it's clearly a buggy spell that needs some work. Regarding Hail Attack I'm sure it's fine against huge bosses where it can't miss, but in every other fight it just doesn't hit, yes it'll freeze any target it does hit, but it'd be more worthwhile for me just to cast piercing ice shard for 6AP so I can choose which targets I'll freeze.

The endgame spells are clearly meant to be your tactical nuke, with huge AP cost and a lengthy cooldown. But as it stands, only meteor shower actually justifies its cost, with all the other level 18 spells I'm better off saving my AP and casting cheaper spells that'll be more effective.

And yeah, the endgame spells are seriously boring. I can't help but feel they missed an obvious opportunity to spice up endgame spells, they added a 'tenebrium' skill for weaponry, but no 'void' skill for magic. They could have added a bunch of void specific spells, along with a bunch of elemental/void spells that require the element and the void skill. So much potential, so little realisation.

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I think it's entirely possible that the endgame spells WEREN'T tested all that much, since they're far enough along that they wouldn't have been included in any of the open beta material. Hopefully they'll get balanced out a bit, though, now that more and more people are trying them out and turning in their feedback.

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Yeah, endgame spells and the Witchcraft damaging spells (and the high level WC spells) are kind of underwhelming.

That Void skill idea sounds awesome.

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Originally Posted by SagaDC
I think it's entirely possible that the endgame spells WEREN'T tested all that much, since they're far enough along that they wouldn't have been included in any of the open beta material. Hopefully they'll get balanced out a bit, though, now that more and more people are trying them out and turning in their feedback.
That was the impression I got. I heard the beta was only a slice of the early game, so high level spells have probably only been tested internally until now.

Originally Posted by LordofBones
Yeah, endgame spells and the Witchcraft damaging spells (and the high level WC spells) are kind of underwhelming.

That Void skill idea sounds awesome.
Glad you like my idea wink Here's to hoping someone at Larian becomes aware of it and does too.

Regarding witchcraft, that's the only school I've not really tested, but the books of high level spells I found sounded pretty 'meh' from their descriptions.

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Witchcraft has basically 1 spell (causes 1000 crushing damage on target) not sure what else you'd call end-game spell for witchraft... resurrection is neat, but I barely if ever died. And it needs just as many AP as the scroll, even with 26 INT

So basically, Witches don't have a tactical nuke. ^^

Last edited by eRe4s3r; 07/07/14 05:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by eRe4s3r
Witchcraft has basically 1 spell (causes 1000 crushing damage on target) not sure what else you'd call end-game spell for witchraft... resurrection is neat, but I barely if ever died. And it needs just as many AP as the scroll, even with 26 INT

So basically, Witches don't have a tactical nuke. ^^


The witchcraft spell is also touch range.

High level WC spells should be Void spells, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Originally Posted by eRe4s3r
Witchcraft has basically 1 spell (causes 1000 crushing damage on target) not sure what else you'd call end-game spell for witchraft... resurrection is neat, but I barely if ever died. And it needs just as many AP as the scroll, even with 26 INT

So basically, Witches don't have a tactical nuke. ^^


The witchcraft spell is also touch range.

High level WC spells should be Void spells, IMHO.


Tbh, void damage is overrated compared to the insane lower resistances skills men-at-arms get.

I ended up winning most every battle in, at most, 1-2 rounds. Except mudlords in phantom forest. Those guys repeatedly destroyed me. >.> With Oath of Desecration + nullify resistances, death punch ended up dealing in the area of 1800-2000 damage.

Granted, meteor strike and the hail thingy had potential towards higher damage outputs, but, as has been mentioned, they're simply not that reliable unless you have around 5+ enemies standing clustered in the spell area.

Concerning spell design, I'll have to agree with the people posting here. While mostly effective, the end game spells sort of feel like a shoddy finish compared to the fun I've had with teleporting enemies on top of each other, or chuckling as I set fire to mob after mob after mob.

Never quite got the hang of that pesky lightning though, as the water and blood would sometimes sneakily have encroached on my characters, resulting in an unwelcome stun-fest. -.-'

Last edited by Vethrin; 07/07/14 09:52 PM.
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Chain Lightning: Depend on how grouped up they are, situational spell.

Storm: Try 100%+ air resistance and get stun immunity talent. Higher level spells generally are meant to be unreliable, but if you negate the downside, they become good, especially for specialized party or lone wolf playstyle.

Meteor: Easy mode spell.

Hail: Not really meant to do damage as its main purpose, it is meant to change the battlefield with frozen grounds, can be used another mage to create different effects on the field. Defensive/utility, not a smash A to obliterate spell at all.

Earthquake: Really good spell when used correctly. Knockdown immunity on party members make this spell easy to use and devastating to enemies. Require either specialized builds, small party or solo, or having air mage to drop the earth mage to the enemy and away from the party when possible.


If you want reliability, use low level spells. High level spells are for advanced builds that adds some risk, but with proper builds it becomes very powerful or useful when in the right hands.


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Earthquake, with its knockdown, would be utterly OP if it didn't hit your own party. If you get your party to be immune or highly resistant to knockdown specifically, it's an extremely good ability.

The only problem I have is: Okay, so it's this very good ability if you build around it... and how were you supposed to build around it, if it only became available late in the game? Abilities like Earthquake shouldn't be these high-damage finishers, but instead things which players become aware of when they still have time to do something about it. For example, Self-Immolation and Explode are also build-around-me skills, but you get the chance to become familiar with them much sooner.

Thus the bad part about Earthquake is that it's a build-around-me design for an endgame skill, and those two concepts don't mesh together very well. The former, however, is not the problem; if anything, build-around-me skills are cool.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 18/07/14 01:27 PM.
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I want arhus zzap skill for endgame!

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I'm trying to understand why the most powerful spells in the game are meant to be unreliable. For the AP they cost, I bloody well get the bang for my buck.

Seriously, none of this make sense. It's like Larian just took whatever sounded cool and threw them in.

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yup, having worked at a game developer for a few years, I can definitely say that there is a "cool factor" that weights much more heavily in design than pure in-game power.

there is a tendency after playing the same level a hundred times for testing, to forget balance in favor of what feels cool.

this game has that all over the place. my guess is that the first real balance patch, which I would expect to pop sometime towards the end of this month, will likely address a lot of this.


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Originally Posted by LordofBones
I'm trying to understand why the most powerful spells in the game are meant to be unreliable. For the AP they cost, I bloody well get the bang for my buck.

Seriously, none of this make sense. It's like Larian just took whatever sounded cool and threw them in.


If two of those eight fireballs hit from meteor than it was worth the AP. It mostly good to use even against single targets. How much more reliable you want your AOE damage spells against single targets? ;-)

Lava Core: It creates Lava, what is not to like about? (Shame that I never got to use that one myself)

Meteor Shower, especially two from them cast at the same time pre battle clear whole groups, including bosses standing in the middle before combat even starts.

Rain + Storm when followed up by chain lighting such a nice starter for a battle, and because its giant range and zone it safe to use as well.

Hail completely changes the battlefield to your favor, even when not a single point of damage is done. Though I have to admit, that late in the game enemies are super weak so that the CC that hail brings is rarely needed. And never mix them with Meteor Shower, you will only create lots of water. ;-)

Earthquake is quite strong too, but needs some thinking about how to use it, and so far I have need seen it creating reliable ooz to blow up afterwards. So that might be a good idea to improve the spell in this regard.

Invulnerability is a little bit lackluster I will admit, less cooldown or a few more turns would have been nice. But hey, you get Soulsap and Death Punch + Oath of Desecration, so who cares? ;-)







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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Originally Posted by eRe4s3r
Witchcraft has basically 1 spell (causes 1000 crushing damage on target) not sure what else you'd call end-game spell for witchraft... resurrection is neat, but I barely if ever died. And it needs just as many AP as the scroll, even with 26 INT

So basically, Witches don't have a tactical nuke. ^^


The witchcraft spell is also touch range.

High level WC spells should be Void spells, IMHO.


Whichcrafts element is blood, is kind of the opposite of void magic imho.:)

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Quote
If two of those eight fireballs hit from meteor than it was worth the AP.


say that happens 50% of the time.

that STILL makes just casting fireball more efficient.

no, i have thoroughly tested all of the level 18 spells... they ALL are entirely unworth the ap.

they need some serious fixing.

here's what needs to be done:

projectile numbers are fixed (say 7 for each chain lightning, hail and meteor); each has the damage of the low level version of the similar projectile (flare for meteor or blitz for chain lightning, for example). GUARANTEE hits for all projectiles. Divide the damage by the number of individuals affected by the spell.

just that simple.

so, you cast meteor on a single target? ALL projectiles hit that target.

there are 6 targets in the area? each gets hit, damage each receives is total damage divided by 6.

simple.

effective.

worth casting.

end of story.


Last edited by Ichthyic; 01/08/14 11:44 PM.
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That's silly. You could kill almost any boss in a single turn by hitting them with isolated AOE spells.

It also goes against the idea of AOE spells - they're supposed to be less efficient unless you're attacking multiple targets.

And you're wrong in thinking that they're not worth using. Dealing 1000+ damage total to the final boss with Hail is totally worth 9 AP, when the level 2 Icicle spell (whatever its name is) only deals around 400 damage for 6 AP.

Looked up the numbers. With 20 Intelligence,
Piercing Ice Shard costs 6 AP and deals 222-234 ice damage.
Hail costs 9 AP and deals 441-539 ice damage PER HIT.

That means that if only a SINGLE PROJECTILE hits, Hail was worth the AP cost.

Last edited by dirigible; 02/08/14 04:10 AM.
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