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boars are level 5, going there on level 3 is quiet a challenge !
usually monster level is a good indication for you to know if you're in the right place or not.

Also what I always do in this kind of game, is to play the game, then stop after 2 or 3 hours.
Start over with a new setup, and then loop like that until I find a build that I love and feel effective.

Then I play it.
Doing this i can master the rule of the game, test monsters and skills effects. Learn about the mechanism of the game.
For example when you learn that rain plus the 3AP air spell can froze an enemy on turn 1,
or when you understand that monster won't go through a flamming ground,
or that you can use rain to create a pool of water and then electrify it on turn 2,
or use sneaking to become invisible,
or use crushing fist on mage or archers,
or use invocations to distract 99% of the enemies while you are preparing and positioning,
or that you can delay your turn (button middle right of the screen) so you can play 2 times consecutively, or etc...


People that have heavily played game like "Fallout 1&2, Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment" will find this game very normal or easy for the majority.
Because this the kind of game that force you to search, observe, think and understand.

Can't imagine the reaction of today gamers when starting Baldur's Gate 1, with a 2HP mage, and then facing a wolf that can hit you for 10, 5 minutes after starting the game.
Also the mage waiting for you in front of the "Friendly Arms Inn" was a good introduction to the game (100% sure everyone has die once at this place).

Last edited by Huyt; 07/07/14 06:51 PM.
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And now you realize how infuriated and crushed I was when I realized the save didn't work. frown

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Sometimes I calculate my odds and, egads, deliberately subject a character to environmental effects, knowing that the enemies will take more casualty than I will.

This level of freedom in a strategy, what a time to be alive, wink

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I have to agree with the OP that the early game experience is horrible. The game itself isn't bad but early game it seems like if you didn't start how the game designers wanted you are in for a world of hurt.

To start there is very little indication where you should be going at the early levels. The dialog system in the game is horrible since most of the people in the starter town simply repeat each other. Literally they have the same dialog trees. Basically all I know to do is go North to the cave which is blocked by a boss encounter I can't beat. I feel like I turned left when I should have turned right and I in an area that I shouldn't be in. That or there was content in the town I missed which should have leveled me 1 or two levels. Heck even the guards told me I was too low level when I opened the doors but I've talked to everyone in the town.

My biggest problem, and I am fairly new so I could be incorrect but, is there are only 2 npcs in the first town which you can have join your party. They basically duplicate my starting characters so I am stuck with 2 melee fighters and 2 mages. Now of course I can have them diverge through the leveling system but in the early levels leveling takes so long that won't happen for awhile. Why aren't there 1 of each archetype in the starting zone so you can flesh out your party how you want.

I am level 4 fighting all level 5/6 mobs and always outnumbered sometimes 2 to 1. I don't have, or even have access to, a rogue or ranger and luckily Jorhan (or whatever his name is) has a heal spell or I wouldn't have a healer. To make mattes worse I started with my characters being a Shadowblade (customized to be melee centric with bleed)and Witch (swapped out the spider spell at char creation). Uh 90% of the mobs at early levels are undead which means immune to bleed which was my main combo/mechanic (Witch bleeds mobs and melee char heals off blood). Or plague guys who bleed poison. One of the main tricks from what I can tell by reading the forums is to summon spiders which act like decoys...guess I shouldn't have dropped my summoning spider ability but who knew. My Witch is basically useless until I can get spells to change her a bit but they cost like 1500 gold a piece. I have looted a ton of Ranger stuff but can't use it. I just finished the doppelganger puzzle and in the 5 chests received 2 cool Ranger and Rogue spells and some Strength 10 gear. My guys can't use any of it (my highest strength char is str 8).

I feel like I made some incredibly bad decision (although no fault of my own) at character creation but how was I supposed to know that the bleed mechanic was useless at the beginning and summoning spiders was needed. The game should have a way for the 2 character party to be adjusted early game once players saw what the game had in store for them. I don't mean reroll or anything like that but how about some cheap spells so I can get something for my Witch to do.

Don't get me wrong I really like the premise of the game and the combat is satisfying when I don't feel completely outgunned/outleveled/outmanned. The combat ai is very good. At the early levels there is no way for me to overcome bad luck in my starting characters. I feel like the only thing I can do is save scum my way to a couple of levels.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
Not really. You are actually supposed to learn the mechanics and the system and the eco system of the game as you play it for the first time and then play it all over a few times.

As you do so the difficulty actually ramps down.


Most people don't replay cRPGs multiple times. For those that do, that is why there are increased difficulty settings. Normal mode is for the average player, not the hardcore.


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No, they are elucidating.


I suppose if you think corporal punishment is a educational tool. The smart way to do things would be to introduce elements to you a little bit at a time where you have a chance to adapt to them, not in some big boss fight where you die 5x before figuring it out.


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thats an oxymoron statement.

That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.


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best seller on steam for how many days now?


Its a new game in summer with almost no reviews yet. I'm a KS backer so I've been on board all along, but it silly to think that the rough start on this game isn't going to turn some people off. Yah, there are some hard core players who will eat it up and be all "L2P newb!", but those people are a minority.

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Originally Posted by Huyt
or that you can delay your turn (button middle right of the screen) so you can play 2 times consecutively, or etc...

You can DELAY your turn!!!!!

Holy mother of god... what a nice tip. Never saw this button in 55hours of playtime.
This button should be placed next to the "Skip turn" button, wtf!

Last edited by Etdashou; 07/07/14 07:25 PM.
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Some people should really try Age of Decadence. They'll come back to D:OS crying after dieing 50 times wink

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Originally Posted by Etdashou
Originally Posted by Huyt
or that you can delay your turn (button middle right of the screen) so you can play 2 times consecutively, or etc...

You can DELAY your turn!!!!!

Holy mother of god... what a nice tip. Never saw this button in 55hours of playtime.
This button should be placed next to the "Skip turn" button, wtf!


I will one up you, I never noticed a skip turn button, I just hit spacebar, naturally, even though I can't remember using it for such in a game before. It will be excellent for certain builds that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Viperswhip


This playthrough was on normal, I will do one on hard. I do not mean to belittle the OPs difficulties, but we are on the internet. I am not a handy guy and I once installed a new light switch thanks to google. A quick trip to these forums, a quick trip to google, some thought put into spell combos...yada, yada, yada... it's all here.


I played on hard from day 1. While you can sure get yourself in a pickle if you approach a fight wrong, I wouldn't even call Hard really that "hard". I guess it all depends on how you design your characters, how you approach a fight (using your surroundings to your advantage with choke points, environment, etc...), but I think a large percentage of the difficulty with this game is learning to use the system and actually applying it.


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Originally Posted by Viperswhip
Originally Posted by Etdashou
Originally Posted by Huyt
or that you can delay your turn (button middle right of the screen) so you can play 2 times consecutively, or etc...

You can DELAY your turn!!!!!

Holy mother of god... what a nice tip. Never saw this button in 55hours of playtime.
This button should be placed next to the "Skip turn" button, wtf!


I will one up you, I never noticed a skip turn button, I just hit spacebar, naturally, even though I can't remember using it for such in a game before. It will be excellent for certain builds that's for sure.


Or perhaps add this to the Tutorial? I am not sure if I missed this tip or if it doesn't exist...

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As a very experienced CRPG player, I agree with the OP that the "normal" difficulty is harder than most CRPGs. According to eRe4s3r's post, this was also the consensus of the beta testers, but it was too late to make significant changes.

Part of the difficulty is the "bootstrap" issue. If you are a level 1 character in a dungeon of all level 10 monsters, there is no way to win. You need some mechanism to provide foes close in level to the player at the beginning of the game for the player to gain experience and some levels so he can survive in the (virtual) real world. One example is the catacombs under Aleroth at the beginning of Divine Divinity. Most CRPGs have something similar, like the low level monsters near Seyda Neen in Morrowind or the valley of dragon flies in Might & Magic 7(?). The tutorial dungeon does provide guidance in general game play, but doesn't have the monsters to serve as a bootstrap.

I believe there are ways that this could be improved, and hopefully will, in future patches. For example, the dungeon under the abandoned General Store could be expanded greatly in terms of battle opportunities for low level characters to gain experience.

It seems to me that the current difficulty level is unfortunate as there are so many excellent things about Original Sin. The flexibility of casting a pool of water then casting an electric spell to electrify it or a fire spell to make a steam cloud is reminiscent of the original Dues Ex--very challenging to implement, but a lot of fun to play. smile

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Originally Posted by Vince Bly
As a very experienced CRPG player, I agree with the OP that the "normal" difficulty is harder than most CRPGs. According to eRe4s3r's post, this was also the consensus of the beta testers, but it was too late to make significant changes.

Part of the difficulty is the "bootstrap" issue. If you are a level 1 character in a dungeon of all level 10 monsters, there is no way to win. You need some mechanism to provide foes close in level to the player at the beginning of the game for the player to gain experience and some levels so he can survive in the (virtual) real world. One example is the catacombs under Aleroth at the beginning of Divine Divinity. Most CRPGs have something similar, like the low level monsters near Seyda Neen in Morrowind or the valley of dragon flies in Might & Magic 7(?). The tutorial dungeon does provide guidance in general game play, but doesn't have the monsters to serve as a bootstrap.

I believe there are ways that this could be improved, and hopefully will, in future patches. For example, the dungeon under the abandoned General Store could be expanded greatly in terms of battle opportunities for low level characters to gain experience.

It seems to me that the current difficulty level is unfortunate as there are so many excellent things about Original Sin. The flexibility of casting a pool of water then casting an electric spell to electrify it or a fire spell to make a steam cloud is reminiscent of the original Dues Ex--very challenging to implement, but a lot of fun to play. smile


Thing is, the challenge isn't directly level based. It is strongly tactical in nature. My friend and I got to town at level 2 and went through the west gate to the Orcs (level 6). It was rough, but we were able to take down some of them at level 2 with just the two of us (no henchmen or companions).

The point is, all getting closer to the mobs levels does is allow you to use more common tactics of today's games (ie rush in and start swinging.

The solution is not to allow people to grind to over take levels making it easy for them to beat an encounter. The solution is to teach them how to be better at making tactical decisions, to think about what they have, what they can do, and how they can best use their environment to their advantage.

That is what a tactical game like this needs, not a grind to overpower the content.

What I think would be ideal is to have a tutorial outside of the game where it is a small dungeon with multiple encounters that require different approaches and spell/skill use to demonstrate the capabilities of play. By having it outside of the game, you can give them all the spells and abilities you want to really show the combinations. You can showcase many aspects of play without being concerned about how it interrupts the game.

Now there was a time when I would say... What a waste. They shouldn't have to make a trainer dungeon like that. I would have said, if they want to learn to play a cRPG, go learn on the many intro/starter cRPGs out there to get used to how these games are played. Problem is, those games don't exist anymore, so... it may warrant a tutorial starter outside of the game.

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Vandraman; good advice. I tried to use smoke once and never accomplished this, and gave up. I'll try again. Archers are killing me lately. Where can I get Wildfire and Oath of Desecration? I'm level 7 and haven't seen either.

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Originally Posted by CWagner
Some people should really try Age of Decadence. They'll come back to D:OS crying after dieing 50 times wink


I am waiting for them to finish it (no seriously, that wasn't a joke). I am looking forward to playing it when they do release it... in another 15+ years, right about the time Grimoire is released.

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I'm beta'ing another game, no level scaling, no pointers and paths were you can only go so far before enemies are too tough. You are supposed to get that and then go hunt somewhere else for a while and return. This is the entire game, finding weak points in the game and following those paths.

I've mentioned to those devs about feedback from D:OS just to make note. Their bottom line was they are purposely making it that way (which I knew) and it isn't negotiable good or bad, that is what they want and what they believe old-schoolers want. They assume their player base will fight through it and be better for it. They believe they will be rewarded by catering to a group of RPG'ers that have been ignored.

Just like Larian decided for D:OS.

It is simply a core philosophy from the start. If one likes it great, if not, it is what it is. Perhaps a few more vids should be watched prior to laying down dollars.

Do they stick to their guns? We'll see. That's either game.

I don't fault anyone really. Designers make the game they want. Consumers buy the games they want. There is no doubt we have been conditioned in a manner of follow some guiding system nowadays. Can you switch it up and handle it when it is taken away? That I reckon is the question, if you cannot, don't take the Red pill.

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Sorry you weren't having fun. frown

I am having a blast, but I do agree that arriving at Cyseal is a longer lull in the action than it should be. I would prefer better pacing of combat, quest-gathering and town-exploring.

It reminds me of Temple of Elemental Evil in that regard... making characters was really fun and inspiring, and then I had an hour plus of mucking around in Hommlet which slowly killed my enthusiasm. Cyseal is better than Hommlet but still an unfortunate slowdown, IMO.

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Originally Posted by camelotcrusade
Sorry you weren't having fun. frown

I am having a blast, but I do agree that arriving at Cyseal is a longer lull in the action than it should be. I would prefer better pacing of combat, quest-gathering and town-exploring.


At first I felt as you did, but then I thought about it a while and realized this was an instinctive reaction due to the way games these days are made and a habit I had picked up over the years. They always follow some formula designed to attend to the short attention span, like an advertising gimmick to keep people focused on the product.

After I realized that, I started walking around in no rush, exploring and enjoying the game, as I once did in older games of past. They really have "programmed" this generation to expect a fast pace.

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Originally Posted by Brian Wright
Originally Posted by Hiver
Not really. You are actually supposed to learn the mechanics and the system and the eco system of the game as you play it for the first time and then play it all over a few times.
As you do so the difficulty actually ramps down.


Most people don't replay cRPGs multiple times. For those that do, that is why there are increased difficulty settings. Normal mode is for the average player, not the hardcore.

cRPGs are types of games that are actually meant to be played several times over. That was the core of what RPG is.

Before mass market decline came and you drones got all those shitfest linear games with one single playthrough and fake skills and no C&C at all, but instead some devolved romances and horrible "sex" cut scenes and other rubbish like that.


Originally Posted by Brian Wright

Quote
No, they are elucidating.

I suppose if you think corporal punishment is a educational tool. The smart way to do things would be to introduce elements to you a little bit at a time where you have a chance to adapt to them, not in some big boss fight where you die 5x before figuring it out.

Corporeal punishment doesnt mean what you think it means.

And using cheap strawman arguments wont win you anything around here either.

The game does introduce elements to you little by little bit at the time and you have all the chances to adapt to them - your problem is that it requires THINKING and LEARNING instead of just pressing "play" and "awesome button".

Whats that "big boss fight you are talking about" exactly?

What do you want? A boss fight where someone like you wins in the first try?
You do realize that would make the game nothing more then a barely interactive movie for the rest of us, dont you?

Look, if you dont want to play but just "experience"... why dont you just watch youtube letsplays?

Or play one of those bioware and bethesda abominations again. Oh thats right, you cant... because there isnt anything there in those soulless empty husks.


Originally Posted by Brian Wright

IE you have pretty much zero chance of winning them the first time through even if you understand the mechanics pretty well.
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thats an oxymoron statement.

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That word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

It means precisely what i think it means and you would do much better for yourself if you didnt imagine you are telepathic.

The point being that if you understood mechanics "pretty well" then you wouldnt be loosing these easy fights like you do - and thats only happening because you expect to just press play and automatically win without actually even trying to. Because you are that lazy and that used to mind-numbing shit games that play instead of YOU.

This is actually an easy game. Relatively speaking. A game that desperately needs a proper hard mode, not this cheap simple trick serving as its replacement now.

What you refer to as "mechanics" is just a small part of the overall system. Knowing how to cast a spell or hit with a weapon are not "mechanics".


Originally Posted by Brian Wright

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best seller on steam for how many days now?

Its a new game in summer with almost no reviews yet.

A new game... With how many other new games on steam right now? It isnt even on that list anymore.

- No reviews. Exactly. It should tell you something. About majorities and minorities.

Youre one of those that actually read the "game media" reviews? Thats how you form an opinion? By letting someone else do it for you? "game media" of all things?


Originally Posted by Brian Wright

I'm a KS backer so I've been on board all along, but it silly to think that the rough start on this game isn't going to turn some people off. Yah, there are some hard core players who will eat it up and be all "L2P newb!", but those people are a minority.

Thats an oxymoron statement. Or a completely insane statement. Considering the fact that the game is top seller on Steam. Which is a fact.

Besides being a rather cheap and pathetic way to grasp for some kind of imagined and actually non existing fallacy of "call to the masses" - which dont even exist.

You would try to imply that there are some mysterious "players" that are being driven off en masse... and they somehow played the game to come to such a reaction, have they?
Which means they have bought it already, right...so... how are they then turned off?
- hypothetically speaking because none of that exists at all.

And if not... how do "they" know the game is so bad and evil? (there is no rough start in the game, there is only your starting incompetence and laziness)

See?

Facts. Truth. Logic.


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Originally Posted by Adam_Nox
Keep in mind this is the perspective of someone who was not in betas. I am a new player to the game, like many are now, and I believe coming at this from fresh eyes is important, because the game has a level of tedium and difficulty that will be insurmountable to all but those who are willing to do internet research, constant trial and error, and in general waste a lot more time than the average player would want to. Here is my story thus far.

It's worth noting that I have recently played Wasteland 2 (arizona only of course), Banner Saga, Watch dogs, Wolfenstein, Stick of truth, and a couple others... And that was just in June. I am a gamer. I am both very competent and at the same time I have no time for nonsense, because there's lots of fish in the ocean.

The first thing that went wrong in the game is the slow movement coupled with the constant backtracking around Cyseal in order to do somewhat boring (storywise) quests with little to no action involved. This got old quickly, and if it hadn't, it would have gotten old slowly because it takes a while.

Eventually I got out into the combat world, got to level 5, and then came across some astoundingly difficult fights. Now I realize you can cheese fights. I realize if you are a beta player you know what combos to do, how to cheese things, how to munchkin it up. I do not. Nor, from what I've read, does my party even have the makeup to effectively do any of this.

So my party of 4 first ran into trouble trying to get past a huge amount of mobs on the way to the northern cave tunnel. I only lost one character in this battle, but it was very difficult, and took I think like 20 minutes just to complete.

The robot was easy to defeat, despite the universal controller not working at all. And I tried every useful command.

The second problem, and the one that inspired me to write here, was the fight with Dietmar and his 7 thugs. Or was it 6. I don't care, it was too many. On my second attempt, I thought if I killed him quickly, the rest would scatter. No such luck. 7 vs my 4, everyone equal level. Crowd control effects sticking to my chars at a ratio of 2:1 vs what they were affected with.

There was really no way, without a lot of luck, after 3 tries, I was going to win this fight. I was beaten. I often opt to play in easy mode in games, especially those that I don't like other aspects of. But I like the PREMISE of the combat in DOS, and I wanted to stay on normal. I was forced to lower the difficulty and feel like a total loser. Thank you for that.

What was most frustrating is the weird environmental effects, the completely arbitrary splash damage on spells that are otherwise single-target, and the friendly fire issues. My ranger was often stunning HERSELF BY FIRING AN ARROW AT A CLOSE RANGE ENEMY, YET NOT STUNNING HIM. Every little puddle ended up electrifying whoever happened to be standing in it, and wasting points moving, just to take attacks of opportunity was even more punishing.

I feel my party is weak, I feel my characters are weak. By level 5 they've been given the most paltry of skill and attribute points to work with. I have played for what seems 20 hours already, maybe it's less than that, and we are only level 5.

So it's on easy now, but by forcing someone like me, who should have no problems with this (ToEE, BG, Icewind, etc games) to lower difficulty, you simply cannot consider the game top-notch. Combat shouldn't be about cheese to win, or X abilities are all better than Y abilities.

Keep in mind, the game has lots of good aspects, but I see very little criticism along these lines, so I feel it has to get out there.


I disagree with everything, honestly.

This type of game is not meant to be played quickly. Your problem is you had an expectation of what the play experience was supposed to be like, but it was unduly applied to this game.

The fight with the pirates is meant to be difficult. However, if you burn down the captain first, it spawns several other enemies. If anything, you should figure this out the first time fighting him, if you can't beat him.

There are probably a lot of other reasons you're having difficulty. You should take your time and progress to the beach cave slowly. I was lv6 or 7 by the time I finally went there.

Also, you need to diversify your party a bit. It's easy to make characters fall into strict RPG roles, but you're better off with a little synergistic diversity.

ALSO, some of the fights are going to be very difficult without AOE effects, and you're meant to use statuses and terrain to win fights. If your enemies are within a level of your party, there's no reason you shouldn't win a fight.

All of your sentiments seem to indicate that you are playing the wrong game, but none of these complaints are objective AT ALL.

The fights you describe as astounding difficult, I merely found challenging. The slow movement, I had no issues with by using waypoints. The Roderick fight was very hard, but once i realized that burning him down spawned more enemies, the fight was easy. The "arbitrary" nature of environmental effects are things I learned from and utilized to my advantage. I feel my party is strong because i've taken the time to make them work together.

And I don't know what you even mean here about needing to cheese, unless by cheese you mean actually pay attention to how environmental effects work, understand how to build characters, and actually equipping them well.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
Facts. Truth. Logic.


These words don't mean what you think they do.

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