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Originally Posted by Simulacrum

There's no "need" for any of the things in the game; their purpose is to be entertaining.


Thats not true.


Additionally, it is a direct example of what devolved the whole genre of RPGs and brought age of decline. That right there is mass market, publisher mentality of ignorance and greed and putting false sense of entitlement to be "entertained" in the cheapest ways possible as the only goal.

Its design by the lowest common denominator.

I wont even try to teach you about concepts such as internal coherence, logic, plausibility, consistency and even more complicated notions of writing things of quality, because if you had any incling about those things you wouldnt be able to write that sentance.

Lets just say that what you consider "entertaining" i wouldnt touch with a ten meter pole. Unless it had a high voltage tazer at the end. Or better yet a plasma torch.



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Or just a new achievement and a new character trait (like "Hero" = +1 charisma and leadership) once you've cleared the dungeon/arena...


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Originally Posted by Hiver
Originally Posted by Simulacrum

There's no "need" for any of the things in the game; their purpose is to be entertaining.


Thats not true.


How so. Your problem seems to be that you - for some odd reason - only understand the word "entertain" in a negative way.

To entertain is probably the most important thing of any game. If its not entertaining nobody will play it. Difference is different things entertain different people. Nobody ever said games have to entertain everybody - such i thing cant exist anyhow.

In the end any game is created to entertain a certain audience - how is entirely up to the audience and the developer.

Last edited by Areason; 07/07/14 09:32 PM.
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No Larian shouldn't add respawning enemies in any way, they should keep updating the editor and support the modding community as much as they can so the community can almost endlessly pump out new custom content/campaigns.

For games like this the new mods are the endgame (what you do when you finish the main campaign).

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Originally Posted by Mr. C
The problem with "respawning enemies" is that we have "Respawning Resources".

Our action points are an endless source of damage, hitpoints, you name it. Once a trick has been determined to killing "whatever" then you'll just have a rapid leveling machine.

Each encounter is supposed to be unique and planned unto itself. To create "respawning enemies" is to deprive the player of that sort of storytelling experience.

While endlessly respawning enemies might be useless... an endlessly respawning DUNGEON might be very interesting.

If you *do* want to something like that consider this image:
[Linked Image]

You have a small temple that you enter and clear out. The entrance of said temple informs you in a round about way that each lower floor is a shifting realm of tortured dreams.

Then, every time the player re-enters the dungeon they would have a new play experience.

Some of you may recognize this from the video game "Lufia 2" with the ancient cave that had 99 "random" levels that the player could experience.



IF we're getting anything from that movie, it should be this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1nv6tkEgA...Screen+shot+2011-07-25+at+2.09.50+PM.png

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Originally Posted by LordCrash
There is simply no need for it. The game is amost perfectly balanced to your own level if you follow the "right" path. You will always fight against mobs that are on the same level as you or one level different at the maximum... wink


Apparently I'm playing the game wrong, then. 1) I keep facing groups of enemies that are twice my level (they're 6 while I'm 3), and it's quite difficult to avoid getting squished to oblivion. 2) I can't afford skills unless I go on a looting spree, stealing paintings from every wall in town.

I wish the city had an area where I could repeatedly face off against other random individuals or teams. Win gold and experience (no items) if I win. Suffer the usual shame and durability loss if I lose. It'd be a great way to slowly train up and legitimately earn cash.

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Originally Posted by MellowTigger
Originally Posted by LordCrash
There is simply no need for it. The game is amost perfectly balanced to your own level if you follow the "right" path. You will always fight against mobs that are on the same level as you or one level different at the maximum... wink


Apparently I'm playing the game wrong, then. 1) I keep facing groups of enemies that are twice my level (they're 6 while I'm 3), and it's quite difficult to avoid getting squished to oblivion. 2) I can't afford skills unless I go on a looting spree, stealing paintings from every wall in town.

I wish the city had an area where I could repeatedly face off against other random individuals or teams. Win gold and experience (no items) if I win. Suffer the usual shame and durability loss if I lose. It'd be a great way to slowly train up and legitimately earn cash.


Well, there is a certain "golden path" which you should/could follow to always meet enemies fitting your own level (one to two level above you max).

In Cyseal:
1) make all quests in town
2) enter the cave under the cementary
3) head out west of town until the lighthouse
4) head out south-west to the beach
5) enther Black Cove
6) head out north
7) head out north-west to the beach
6) enter E.'s cave
7) head out east
8) head out north-east to the cementary/church
9) head out north-north-east to the burning fields
10) enter the dungeon under the church
11) travel to Luculla forest/Silverglen

In Luculla forest
1) head out south to the cabin of the White Witch
2) head out north until you find the spell
3) enter the cave of the White Witch
4) enter the lake and travel to Hiberheim

In Hiberheim
1) solve the puzzles in the cave
2) clear the main map of Hiberheim
3) enter the elemental forge
4) enter Boreas's castle
5) travel back to Silverglen/Luculla forest

In Luculla forest again:
1) enter Silverglen
2) head out south-south-east to the goblin paths
3) enter the Luculla mines
4) head out north-west for the Immaculate trials
5) head out north-west to the desert
6) head out south-east to the Immaculate territory
7) enter the Immaculate cathedral
8) travel forth to the Phantom forest

In Phantom Forest
1) head south-east to Hunter's Edge
2) solve quests in Hunter's Edge
3) enter the Knight's tomb
4) head out north to the cursed area
...


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Originally Posted by MellowTigger
Apparently I'm playing the game wrong, then. 1) I keep facing groups of enemies that are twice my level (they're 6 while I'm 3), and it's quite difficult to avoid getting squished to oblivion. 2) I can't afford skills unless I go on a looting spree, stealing paintings from every wall in town.


You're probably trying to do the quests in the wrong order. Unfortunately they aren't too helpful about pointing the right direction other than giving you a bloody nose every time you go the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by MellowTigger
[quote=LordCrash]

Apparently I'm playing the game wrong, then. 1) I keep facing groups of enemies that are twice my level (they're 6 while I'm 3), and it's quite difficult to avoid getting squished to oblivion. 2) I can't afford skills unless I go on a looting spree, stealing paintings from every wall in town.


Yes as others mentioned you are playing the game wrong. Had the same problem.

From my point of view this is a huge problem of this game which should be fixed as soon as possible.

I am fine with having enemies that are too strong in certain areas but there simply need to be more clues for the player to find out which quests and areas are level apropriate. It is especially frustrating if you just wander out and the last gate you wander out is the one you are supposed to wander out.

I do realize there seem to be some hints but they are to subtle it seems.

Also if this doesnt get fixed soon this will scare of a lot of new players for no reason. The concept is great and it is a good game but people have to at least realize that this is the concept of the game - there are lots of threads from frustrated players.

Problem is i have no idea how this could be done with subtle hints - maybe some sort of level-reputation-dialog-system where guards at the exits will warn players explicitly and change dialogue depending on player-level.

Last edited by Areason; 07/07/14 10:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Areason
Originally Posted by MellowTigger
[quote=LordCrash]

Apparently I'm playing the game wrong, then. 1) I keep facing groups of enemies that are twice my level (they're 6 while I'm 3), and it's quite difficult to avoid getting squished to oblivion. 2) I can't afford skills unless I go on a looting spree, stealing paintings from every wall in town.


Yes as others mentioned you are playing the game wrong. Had the same problem.

From my point of view this is a huge problem of this game which should be fixed as soon as possible.

I am fine with having enemies that are too strong in certain areas but there simply need to be more clues for the player to find out which quests and areas are level apropriate. It is especially frustrating if you just wander out and the last gate you wander out is the one you are supposed to wander out.

I do realize there seem to be some hints but they are to subtle it seems.

Also if this doesnt get fixed soon this will scare of a lot of new players for no reason. The concept is great and it is a good game but people have to at least realize that this is the concept of the game - there are lots of threads from frustrated players.

Problem is i have no idea how this could be done with subtle hints - maybe some sort of level-reputation-dialog-system where guards at the exits will warn players explicitly and change dialogue depending on player-level.


Don't the guards tell you if you're below the recommend level? Also, seeing level 6 enemies while you're level 3 should be indication enough you should go elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Areason

I am fine with having enemies that are too strong in certain areas but there simply need to be more clues for the player to find out which quests and areas are level apropriate. It is especially frustrating if you just wander out and the last gate you wander out is the one you are supposed to wander out.

Some call it frustrating, others exciting. This game "forces" you to explore and to try stuff out and to search for stuff on purpose. If you meet enemies that seem to be too strong for you, go somewhere else. That's true exploration by design. wink

If you think that this is frustrating just have a look at the forums/guides. Or the game is just maybe not your cup of tea.

Last edited by LordCrash; 07/07/14 10:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by LordCrash
Originally Posted by Areason

I am fine with having enemies that are too strong in certain areas but there simply need to be more clues for the player to find out which quests and areas are level apropriate. It is especially frustrating if you just wander out and the last gate you wander out is the one you are supposed to wander out.

Some call it frustrating, others exciting. This game "forces" you to explore and to try stuff out and to search for stuff on purpose. If you meet enemies that seem to be too strong for you, go somewhere else. That's true exploration by design. wink

If you think that this is frustrating just have a look at the forums/guides. Or the game is just maybe not your cup of tea.


It is frustrating when you have to go trough 6 doors just to find out that you were supposed to to trough door number 7.

Especially when you start a new game and dont know yet what the game wants to be. Thats probably my main problem with this game - this is a type of game people are not used to anymore - it is important for the game to communicate that it is different.

Also i wouldnt call this "true exploration by design" but annoying trial and error combined with a game you dont know yet.

The beginning of the game should be clear and help the player understanding what he is supposed to do. From my point of view this will only scare off new players at the beginning of the game because they have no idea what they are supposed to do. The game shouldnt hold a players hand - but it should at least give players a general idea what to do at least at the beginning of the game.

Also i am not sure if i like the level-area system as it is now because it pretty much is a hidden mechanic to force the player to do quests in a certain order without the game telling him in which order. It would be more fun if higher-level areas would be within normal areas and/or higher level foes within aswell.

Last edited by Areason; 07/07/14 10:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Areason
Problem is i have no idea how this could be done with subtle hints - maybe some sort of level-reputation-dialog-system where guards at the exits will warn players explicitly and change dialogue depending on player-level.


Easy enough. Put a level with the quest progression in the journal. It would tell you which quest you should probably be exploring without the recon by fire approach.

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I'm curious about the people who think there should be no 'end game'. Surely after you've finished the campaign, you feel attached to your characters and would like to do more with them, no? I see no harm in area(s) that open up post-campaign with dynamic leveling or some sort of tiered content that would let you continue to grow your characters, get new crafting mats, new gear, try new builds, etc.

Of course it wouldn't be balanced, and of course your characters would get stupid powerful, but why shouldn't they when the campaign is over? There's no harm done by post-story optional content. If you don't like it, don't partake in it. Do what you would do without it and just never load the save again, it doesn't affect you at all.

I like life extension by mods, it's obviously a great and expansive option. But at this point once you've finished the campaign and killed every mob, you're done. There's no reason to load the save anymore. No reason to see those characters again. I don't know you can be so contented to see your 80+ hour characters disappear (which they effectively are since you may as well delete your save file with no mobs to fight or things to do).

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Originally Posted by Pestilence
I'm curious about the people who think there should be no 'end game'. Surely after you've finished the campaign, you feel attached to your characters and would like to do more with them, no?


I'm not sure what EG would look like with a game like this, but historically these games don't have end games, unless you call Expansions or Part 2 or 3 etc part of that. MMO's created this end game situation because they wanted you to keep soaking dollars into playing. I'm not really against it, I'm near certain it isn't coming, but it isn't a staple for cRPG's in any way. The mod tool is probably our EG, wherever that may lead.

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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Originally Posted by Pestilence
I'm curious about the people who think there should be no 'end game'. Surely after you've finished the campaign, you feel attached to your characters and would like to do more with them, no?


I'm not sure what EG would look like with a game like this, but historically these games don't have end games, unless you call Expansions or Part 2 or 3 etc part of that. MMO's created this end game situation because they wanted you to keep soaking dollars into playing. I'm not really against it, I'm near certain it isn't coming, but it isn't a staple for cRPG's in any way. The mod tool is probably our EG, wherever that may lead.


Oh I know that typically this genre has no end game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. I don't think they'll add it at this point, we're just discussing the concept. But having to effectively delete my save once I finish the campaign feels shitty, I want to keep gearing and keep growing. At this point we don't even know if you can import characters/saves into the editor campaigns so it's very possible that it won't be our EG, it'll just be other stuff, and the characters you spent 80+ hours with will be effectively dead.

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Originally Posted by Pestilence
Of course it wouldn't be balanced, and of course your characters would get stupid powerful, but why shouldn't they when the campaign is over? There's no harm done by post-story optional content. If you don't like it, don't partake in it. Do what you would do without it and just never load the save again, it doesn't affect you at all.


The harm is that it ruins possible expansions.

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Originally Posted by Pestilence
Oh I know that typically this genre has no end game, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. I don't think they'll add it at this point, we're just discussing the concept. But having to effectively delete my save once I finish the campaign feels shitty, I want to keep gearing and keep growing. At this point we don't even know if you can import characters/saves into the editor campaigns so it's very possible that it won't be our EG, it'll just be other stuff, and the characters you spent 80+ hours with will be effectively dead.



Well that is what modded campaigns are for and expansions and #2. To continue on. Someone mentioned a NG+, that would have been cool, but not in the cards

I wouldn't delete it, in time there most likely will be a use for them.

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Originally Posted by Tyhan
The harm is that it ruins possible expansions.


Is that how expansions for these kinds of games usually work? Carry on with your old campaign characters?

Quote
I wouldn't delete it, in time there most likely will be a use for them.


Yeah I wouldn't either, but aside from an expansion there's no reason to have the save, is what I was getting at. Having nothing to do with 80+ hour characters makes me sad.

Last edited by Pestilence; 08/07/14 12:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pestilence
Is that how expansions for these kinds of games usually work? Carry on with your old campaign characters?


Why call it an expansion if you're starting a completely new scenario? You could make that a whole seperate game running on a slightly improved engine and most people would be perfectly content like that.

The point of an expansion in RPGs is to continue.

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