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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
[quote=rupuka][

Well, you can workworkwork with you crafting skills, and it does not affect anything. You do not get experience. Which means, you cannot work as a, say, weapon smith, and continue your adventures later. You meet a skill ceiling, until you start working on some quests.

That's what I meant.
That applies to a lot of skills, like blacksmithing, sneaking, pickpocketing or bartering , what makes crafting so especial?

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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
Originally Posted by rupuka
Originally Posted by MogwaiX
-Also, it's a bit silly that crafting is bound to the points you get from leveling up.
How is silly? You gain levels to get points to improve your character, that just how leveling work. Is just an abstraction of how gaining experience makes you better at things


Well, you can workworkwork with you crafting skills, and it does not affect anything. You do not get experience. Which means, you cannot work as a, say, weapon smith, and continue your adventures later. You meet a skill ceiling, until you start working on some quests.

That's what I meant.


Experience from crafting would probably require a rework to how economy is managed. The problem is that through stealing you can probably make over 50000+ gold before even leaving Cyseal, that itself isn't the problem, but it would be if crafting granted experience. With 50k you could buy out all the ingredients from all the merchants in Cyseal, craft a massive amount of goods, sell them for a profit, then you'd level up through crafting experience which will reset the inventories of merchants, you'd then repeat the same process over and over and you'd be extremely overleveled, you'd be breezing through enemies not because of using the gear you crafted, but because the stats derived from your level would make killing enemies a walk in the park. The simple solution to that problem? Make crafting give very little experience so that it can't make you too powerful, which in turn doesn't provide significant benefit. Larian would probably need to do a big revamp to how crafting, crafting experience and leveling works if they ever decided to add it, right now I think there's more important things to work on (bug fixing).

I think crafting right now is fine, many think it's not useful, along with blacksmithing. If you take the time to explore it, read the books, think about your ingredients, I find that more rewarding and immersive than having a crafting window. As for crafting rewards, I personally think experience shouldn't be added on to the initial reward you already get (massive improvements to weapons and armor).

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Please, please no experience or "leveling" by crafting. The last thing this world needs is more games with grinding. Grinding is the bane of all that is good in life.

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Originally Posted by jfunk
Please, please no experience or "leveling" by crafting. The last thing this world needs is more games with grinding. Grinding is the bane of all that is good in life.


Why would there be "grinding"? A lot of us enjoy crafting, but we also enjoy the benefits of crafting. Right now it's pretty meaningless.

Example: I have not yet played an RPG with crafting, that my wife has not enjoyed. Yesterday she said, that crafting is pointless and cumbersome. And I have to agree with her. smile The benefits of crafting are minimal here.

I liked Ultima VII type crafting, but seriously, the world has moved on. There are better ways to do it now.

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Originally Posted by rupuka
Originally Posted by MogwaiX
[quote=rupuka][

Well, you can workworkwork with you crafting skills, and it does not affect anything. You do not get experience. Which means, you cannot work as a, say, weapon smith, and continue your adventures later. You meet a skill ceiling, until you start working on some quests.

That's what I meant.
That applies to a lot of skills, like blacksmithing, sneaking, pickpocketing or bartering , what makes crafting so especial?


I meant crafting in general, so that includes blacksmithing. Both skills are out of your normal everyday adventuring. That makes them special.

That said, disarming traps and lock picking could also reward experience. You have succeeded in your mission to open a locked door: Well done. Here's 200xp.

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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
Originally Posted by jfunk
Please, please no experience or "leveling" by crafting. The last thing this world needs is more games with grinding. Grinding is the bane of all that is good in life.


Why would there be "grinding"? A lot of us enjoy crafting, but we also enjoy the benefits of crafting. Right now it's pretty meaningless.

Example: I have not yet played an RPG with crafting, that my wife has not enjoyed. Yesterday she said, that crafting is pointless and cumbersome. And I have to agree with her. smile The benefits of crafting are minimal here.

I liked Ultima VII type crafting, but seriously, the world has moved on. There are better ways to do it now.


Having to stand somewhere and click - click - click your way through crafting 50 swords so you can unlock the next level of sword is as grindy as it gets. Allowing character levels ups via this process is even worse.

If you want to throw in a token " exploration" XP bonus to first time you craft a particular item I don't care. But if crafting items is useful in the game and crafting must be leveled up to unlock better crafting, that's grinding at its worst.

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Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
What do I want:

1) SHIFT+UP/DOWN to cycle action bars at all times, so I don't have to move the mouse cursor away from whatever I am focusing on in order to click on a tiny arrow to perform this action.

2) A hotkey for delaying a character's action in combat, so I don't have to move the mouse cursor away from whatever I am focusing on in order to click on a tiny button at the side of the screen to perform this action. Normally 'w' would be used for this, but as that is taken (for WASD scrolling), perhaps 't' instead.



Why do I want it:

Because it is a major UI improvement for minimal effort.

Multiple action bars and swapping between them is not something new and revolutionary. It is a well established design pattern, and when you do it for PC with a dual mouse/keyboard setup, you should - as a matter of course - make both selection from the active action bar and cycling the action bars be possible using either input device.

Given that this is basic UI design knowledge, I can only believe that it is something that was forgotten in the rush of so many other higher priority issues to address.


Incidentally, I also consider the tiny clickable up/down buttons much too small for frequently used buttons in a good mouse interface, but that's a different issue, as people who are primarily mouse-oriented in input method might find them large enough.



I can only agree with this one, but add that the clickable buttons are in no way big enough and definitely should be made larger - IF the game is so determined to make me click them.

I do need to aim at them with precision. And considering the whole setup isnt the best design to start with and that those arrows can be made a bit larger easily...

They really should be bigger.

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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
Originally Posted by jfunk
Please, please no experience or "leveling" by crafting. The last thing this world needs is more games with grinding. Grinding is the bane of all that is good in life.


Why would there be "grinding"? A lot of us enjoy crafting, but we also enjoy the benefits of crafting. Right now it's pretty meaningless.

Example: I have not yet played an RPG with crafting, that my wife has not enjoyed. Yesterday she said, that crafting is pointless and cumbersome. And I have to agree with her. smile The benefits of crafting are minimal here.


The benefits of crafting are that you get a crafted item. Typically this means you get items you normally couldn't get your hands on, get items in greater quantities than you normally could, or save a lot of money. I don't craft in D:OS (I hate crafting systems in RPGs almost universally), but if those three elements aren't present I'd argue that's the problem they need to fix. Making it about accumulating experience turns crafting into a means to an end other than itself. Crafting should be about getting items, not getting experience.

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I want more and better tool tips; for example what happens when you level an elemental ? The tool tip just indicates you can learn more spells/skills. Surely it does more than that ??? There are dozens of examples where the tool tip is (imho) totally in-adequate.

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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
- Stop seeing inside houses when you are OUTSIDE.

Funny... I would want that roofs dissapear when I hover over them so I can click inside. Having to zoom in is annoying...
Heh.
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- Better crafting. More ingredients

The current 200 or so (more?) aren't enough already 0_o
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- Experience from crafting. Please.

No... just... no.

Funnily enough with the crafting discussion I can't say a current game where I like it... AT ALL. The best I've seen was Baldur's Gate II, and there 'crafting' was *give item and gold to NPC*... heh.

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That said, disarming traps and lock picking could also reward experience. You have succeeded in your mission to open a locked door: Well done. Here's 200xp.

No, no, no, no... did no-one learned the lessons of BG2 with it's "XP for everything" mentality causing horrible problems, and guiding people into doing things they normally wouldn't do (picklock door having key, CHECK! :/)

@ Meme; good point.

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Originally Posted by Zozma


The benefits of crafting are that you get a crafted item. Typically this means you get items you normally couldn't get your hands on, get items in greater quantities than you normally could, or save a lot of money. I don't craft in D:OS (I hate crafting systems in RPGs almost universally), but if those three elements aren't present I'd argue that's the problem they need to fix. Making it about accumulating experience turns crafting into a means to an end other than itself. Crafting should be about getting items, not getting experience.


But that's the thing: You do not enjoy crafting. Persons who do are a different breed. smile

The one thing you do not think of is MONEY. Crafting is important, because it gives you a fair way to make money in an RPG. Gather, craft, sell. Otherwise, You might as well just turn roque when you run out of it, and steal EVERYTHING (like in Ultima VII).

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

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- Better crafting. More ingredients

The current 200 or so (more?) aren't enough already 0_o
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- Experience from crafting. Please.

No... just... no.

Funnily enough with the crafting discussion I can't say a current game where I like it... AT ALL. The best I've seen was Baldur's Gate II, and there 'crafting' was *give item and gold to NPC*... heh.


That's because you are not a crafter per se. smile Crafting is important for people who DO enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter


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That said, disarming traps and lock picking could also reward experience. You have succeeded in your mission to open a locked door: Well done. Here's 200xp.

No, no, no, no... did no-one learned the lessons of BG2 with it's "XP for everything" mentality causing horrible problems, and guiding people into doing things they normally wouldn't do (picklock door having key, CHECK! :/)


This I do not understand. Why does it matter? IF you enjoy picking locks, do it. IF you enjoy smashing them to bits, that should be okay too.

BTW. this is the first time I heard anyone picking locks in BG2 just for experience. :I

The point is that it's more rewarding to do things when you are (at least nominally) getting rewards for accomplishing things. You know, like in real (tabletop) RPGs.

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the only thing i want tweaked is the inventory management. finding it to be a major chore. i want a simple "mark as junk" option to allow for quick sell.

plus, i want to be able to switch between characters while at a merchant, without losing what the first character has contributed.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

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- Better crafting. More ingredients

The current 200 or so (more?) aren't enough already 0_o


Problem is that with all the ingredients, you don't really have a lot of interesting things to craft. Offhand, you can only make two unique weapons, and you can't make jewelry beyond the recipes offered at Crafting 1 and 2.

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Originally Posted by MogwaiX
That's because you are not a crafter per se. smile Crafting is important for people who DO enjoy it.

So if those people like crafting, why do they need a XP-carrot attached to it in order to craft?
You're statement contradicts itself.
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This I do not understand. Why does it matter? IF you enjoy picking locks, do it. IF you enjoy smashing them to bits, that should be okay too.

Play BG2, play Knights of the Old Republic 2, heck play Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
All good examples why "give XP for task like hacking/lockpicking/taking mines" are EXTREMELY bad.

EDIT: If people reload their game upon finding a key, since they rather hack the door to get the reward than using the freaking key... you should know you failed as gamedeveloper.

There is no choice if the choice is XP/absolutely nothing for the exact same effort. Not to mention the hilarious BS in KOTOR2 that every major minefield is not an obstacle, but a massive XP-boost. Gamedev wants something, gamemechanics wreck it to bits.
So yes I say again; "No... just... no!"
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The point is that it's more rewarding to do things when you are (at least nominally) getting rewards for accomplishing things. You know, like in real (tabletop) RPGs.

Problem of the "modern generation"... they don't want to do anything without getting an immediate reward. Lockpicking a door to enter a room... entering the room is not enough, the lockpicking needs XP too. Crafting to get better items... no, not good enough, needs XP rewards too.
And no, I cannot think of any good tabletop DM that rewards you for doing menial things to progress the game forward. Especially if those are COUNTERING the entire premise of the game, namely choice, by making one option XP-bonus and all other options nothing. Does that fit a game which gives you half a dozen tools to solve a problem like Original Sin.

Do I hear a No?

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Then make crafting give specific crafting xp like Charisma does. Problem solved.

The whole "modern generation" thing just makes you lose all credibility. Given the current renaissance of old school RPGs and the continued modding scene of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, PS:T and so on, it's fairly evident that the "modern generation" has no problem with complicated games.

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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Then make crafting give specific crafting xp like Charisma does. Problem solved.

The whole "modern generation" thing just makes you lose all credibility. Given the current renaissance of old school RPGs and the continued modding scene of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, PS:T and so on, it's fairly evident that the "modern generation" has no problem with complicated games.


No, this is precisely the worst way. Its forced grinding. There's nothing wrong with crafting gear. I want to craft gear. I don't not want to stand at an anvil clicking for 5 hours to unlock the ability to click on something else.


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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Then make crafting give specific crafting xp like Charisma does. Problem solved.

The whole "modern generation" thing just makes you lose all credibility. Given the current renaissance of old school RPGs and the continued modding scene of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, PS:T and so on, it's fairly evident that the "modern generation" has no problem with complicated games.


Make the game like an MMO? Umm... no thanks. Go play an MMO if you want to grind mundane tasks for hours on end in a game.

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The difference with charisma XP being one-shots, usually replacing XP of killing stuff otherwise (that in the end actually give more XP really) and crafting XP that can be done infitive...
Yeah, problem solved.

NOT

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Originally Posted by LordofBones
Then make crafting give specific crafting xp like Charisma does. Problem solved.

The whole "modern generation" thing just makes you lose all credibility. Given the current renaissance of old school RPGs and the continued modding scene of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, PS:T and so on, it's fairly evident that the "modern generation" has no problem with complicated games.


The question remains. Why? You are crafting and you get an item for it. Just like others pointed out, what is the point? To hit level 21 instead of 20 by end game? Or maybe 22? The game is not scaled for that, XP is finite and being a completionist in the game may reward you with a higher level at the end. Adding any sort of reusable or repeatable XP reward will destroy this balance entirely.

In terms of the comparison to Charisma XP: Charisma is an actual achievement of sorts, and is in fact 'progression XP'. It also counts as a compensation to alternative combat XP, because some of these conversations avoid a fight. Crafting is not an achievement, is repeatable, and has nothing to do with progressing through the story.


The only constant in time is change
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