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There seems to be a broad consensus that these two skills are overpowered.

Last edited by Noxos; 23/07/14 12:52 AM.
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Comeback Kid, by itself, is fine.

Leech, by itself, is RIDICULOUSLY strong. Honestly if it were reworked to only heal you when you ENTER blood (and remove the effect where it consumes blood) then it would be balanced.

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What dirigible said.

I'd be sad if there was a Comeback Kid nerf, because it doesn't deserve it. Leech, on the other hand, needs to be fixed; I'm not too particular about how, but it's way too strong right now.

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Why not make it so that amount of blood spilled has a certain value as to how much it can heal? E.g. the blood spilled from 100 damage can only heal 20 damage? That effectively gives us 20% of received damage back as healing and still lets us heal as we move into puddles of blood.

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Leech is perfectly fine, why? Because enemies use it against you in far more powerful variants than you'll ever see. I was fighting against some mushrooms that were being healed by all elemental damage and poison and physical attacks would cause them to bleed-heal for more than it was possible to hit them. I actually hit one of them with slash damage from my witch and it would heal thousands of times nonstop for three turns. At first I thought it was a bug or that the game glitched on nonstop healing it when I noticed that it had bleeding status.....I don't heal like that when my one of my party with leech suffers bleeding....it'll heal maybe ten bits of damage each turn which isn't even that much when health is over 1k and that's it....not nonstop like that.

But the reality is that the way it worked on those mushrooms is how it should be.....non-freaking-stop. If a bunch of mushrooms can be and are in effect invincible then so should the player's party. Maybe remove the visual numbers, sound effects and visual effects of bleeding and leave it like that...always healing non-stop.

But at the absolute very least they should definitely not cheat the players out of these abilities. Enhance them and make them more powerful, great, no problem. But remove them or diminish their effects? Absolutely not.

Last edited by Darth_Trethon; 23/07/14 06:31 AM.
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Take Witchcraft - cast blood letting on Leech guy.

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Only healing when entering blood would nerf leech to completely useless status.

Why would you waste AP moving your character to blood puddles, subjecting them to Opportunist attacks or environmental hazards, when you could just use cure wounds/water heals/healing pots? I agree leech is too strong and trivializes physical damage greatly, but some of the initial healing needs to be retained or people would stop using it.

Also, I have found it to be much stronger in earlier levels than later when enemies hit much harder.


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Originally Posted by Ailurophile
Only healing when entering blood would nerf leech to completely useless status.

Why would you waste AP moving your character to blood puddles, subjecting them to Opportunist attacks or environmental hazards, when you could just use cure wounds/water heals/healing pots? I agree leech is too strong and trivializes physical damage greatly, but some of the initial healing needs to be retained or people would stop using it.

Also, I have found it to be much stronger in earlier levels than later when enemies hit much harder.



It would heal you the first time you get hit (since you have 'entered' a pool of blood). It would then STOP healing you, until you exit that pool and enter a new one. Imho Leech should not be a complete game-changer. It should be a nice bonus that usually helps you a little. I think that would put it in line with most of the other talents.

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Leech is dumb.

The way it is right now (heal by bleeding yourself OR by standing in someone else's blood) is nonsensical. It's like biting your own fingers off when you are hungry.

But if it is nerfed to work the way it's supposed to (heal ONLY by standing on someone else's blood) it will be too situational to be worth a pick. You have to be: close to whomever you are injuring, hit them with something that will cause blood spillage, AND they need to be able to bleed.

Maybe Leech should never have been created in the first place.


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Originally Posted by dirigible
Originally Posted by Ailurophile
Only healing when entering blood would nerf leech to completely useless status.

Why would you waste AP moving your character to blood puddles, subjecting them to Opportunist attacks or environmental hazards, when you could just use cure wounds/water heals/healing pots? I agree leech is too strong and trivializes physical damage greatly, but some of the initial healing needs to be retained or people would stop using it.

Also, I have found it to be much stronger in earlier levels than later when enemies hit much harder.



It would heal you the first time you get hit (since you have 'entered' a pool of blood). It would then STOP healing you, until you exit that pool and enter a new one. Imho Leech should not be a complete game-changer. It should be a nice bonus that usually helps you a little. I think that would put it in line with most of the other talents.


As far as I know a single puddle will only heal you once. Walk a leech character who is not at full health over a blood puddle away from battle. The puddle will disappear. This suggests to me that unless you are continually being hit by physical damage, or given a bleed debuff, the leech character will only heal once per puddle made.

Someone correct me if this is inaccurate.

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Leech and zombie do seem very odd talents, well beyond realism - whereas most others seem to be only a cinematic or mildly magical extension of an existing character ability.

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@Ailurophile
You are correct.

Here's the problem with leech : when two blood puddles get put on top of one another, they don't "stack", they combine. It creates one blood puddle. So you walk into it, it counts as a single blood puddle.

Leech 'eats' the puddle as soon as you walk into it, though, so if you are standing there getting hit, it keeps trying to spawn blood under you (because you're bleeding or getting hit) but Leech is just instantly eating it.

So every single time the game adds blood under the character, they heal again (and remove the blood).

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Originally Posted by Darth_Trethon
Leech is perfectly fine, why? Because enemies use it against you in far more powerful variants than you'll ever see. <snip>

But the reality is that the way it worked on those mushrooms is how it should be.....non-freaking-stop. If a bunch of mushrooms can be and are in effect invincible then so should the player's party. <snip>


Ok, Darth, that's the second time I've seen you post about your all-mage party having difficulties with those mushrooms. I have a few points in response to your slightly impractical suggestions.

1. It was one encounter. Keep things in perspective.
2. It is fitting that the game challenges you in different ways and some enemies will have resistance to lots of forms of damage. Some resist poison, some are healed by it, some cannot be stunned or blinded. You have to learn their weaknesses and adapt.
3. You made a party of just mages - therefore leaving yourself very exposed to magic-resistant creatures. Lots of games, not just D:OS, have magic-resistant creatures. Others are very melee resistant (or totally so). In an RPG, you're going to get screwed if you don't keep your toolkit broad-based and flexible.

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Leech needs only 2 changes -

1. Healing from it should be ignored by comeback kid trait, so the combination of this traits wouldn't make the char unkillable by melee attacks.

2. Remove possibility to abuse it by causing your char to bleed. Insta 100% heal is way too overpowered. Healing amount should be equal to the damage done by bleeding.


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I figure people who don't like leech could always just not use it...


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These abilities are not overpowered, so there is no need to remove or change them.

Comeback kid: After you "comeback" you only have 1hp. Get hit once more and that character is dead. Not fun if your character is poisoned, burning, etc. Helpful in the beginning of the game, practically useless mid to late game.

Leech: If you get hit, then you heal like 15-30 hp. Later in the game that is less than 5% of your HP pool... The talent is certainly helpful at the beginning of the game, but is far from being overpowered, it is actually a completely useless skill later in the game.

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Originally Posted by dlux
These abilities are not overpowered, so there is no need to remove or change them.

Comeback kid: After you "comeback" you only have 1hp. Get hit once more and that character is dead. Not fun if your character is poisoned, burning, etc. Helpful in the beginning of the game, practically useless mid to late game.

Leech: If you get hit, then you heal like 15-30 hp. Later in the game that is less than 5% of your HP pool... The talent is certainly helpful at the beginning of the game, but is far from being overpowered, it is actually a completely useless skill later in the game.



Comeback kid + leech: You have 30 hp. You get hit for 400 dmg by melee attacker. You would die, but comeback kid prevents it. And leech heals you, so you have 30 hp again. You get hit again. Same thing happens again. You get hit thousand more times. You're still alive.

Yeah, immortality vs melee attackers is certainly not overpowered.

Leech: You have 100/3000 hp. Some enemy cause you to bleed, or you cast bloodletting on yourself. Boom. You have 3000/3000 hp instantly.

Yeah, ridicolously cheap insta 100% heal is certainly not overpowered.



Yeah, you're right, these traits are useless trash. Thank you for your deep insight.


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Originally Posted by dlux
Leech: If you get hit, then you heal like 15-30 hp. Later in the game that is less than 5% of your HP pool... The talent is certainly helpful at the beginning of the game, but is far from being overpowered, it is actually a completely useless skill later in the game.


Congratulations, your post has made me make an account for these forums. Leech heals you 5% of your maximum hp, so it is never useless, and, given enough hp, can make you just as invincible to attacks that make you spill blood as any other skill. Got 3,000 hp? Enemy hits you with a slashing weapon for 150? Enemy just wasted the AP from that attack.

Not to mention of course the Bleeding status as mentioned everywhere else.

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Originally Posted by dlux
Leech: If you get hit, then you heal like 15-30 hp. Later in the game that is less than 5% of your HP pool... The talent is certainly helpful at the beginning of the game, but is far from being overpowered, it is actually a completely useless skill later in the game.

Leech currently heals for about 1/2 to 1/3 the damage I take from physical attacks. That is insanely powerful, even ignoring the other ways that Leech is broken.

Imagine if there was a talent that increased your HP by 200%. That would be ridiculously good, right? More useful than any other talent. Well Leech does that, AND MORE.

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Guys, I was not aware of the leech/comback kid combo. No need to get so butthurt.

By themselves both are perfectly fine and that is what I thought this thread was about.

Originally Posted by Shaki

Leech: You have 100/3000 hp. Some enemy cause you to bleed, or you cast bloodletting on yourself. Boom. You have 3000/3000 hp instantly.

That doesn't work.

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