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Do any quests give different XP depending on what choices I make? for example are there quests where if I decide to help someone would I get more/less XP then if I decided to kill him?

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I believe so, but I cannot confirm.

I KNOW that winning arguments gets you XP, so if you fail to win arguments then you miss XP.

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Yes. Choosing the path with the most bloodshed that still lets you complete the quest generally gives the most exp. Also, some even where your choosing between two non-violent solutions, exp rewards can differ.

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Choices and consequences?

Sound familiar?

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Yes.

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Blinkicide is right.
Like most other RPG's here too combat XP is so excessive that it pretty much always thriumps any peaceful paths.

Which is why I look forward to Pillars of Eternity not having combat XP. A lot of people whined, complained and threatened about that, but it's really the only reason to properly give alternative solutions without putting one clearly infront of the other XP-wise...

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If you want to max your XP during your encounters with immaculates and other opponents that can be reasoned with, try getting the charisma xp from the peaceful solution, trade with them and kill them afterwards.

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I was surprised to see a couple of times I got a Charisma XP, was pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Blinkicide is right.
Like most other RPG's here too combat XP is so excessive that it pretty much always thriumps any peaceful paths.

That isn't true, peaceful solutions often give much more XP than violent ones in D:OS.

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Which is why I look forward to Pillars of Eternity not having combat XP. A lot of people whined, complained and threatened about that, but it's really the only reason to properly give alternative solutions without putting one clearly infront of the other XP-wise...

Not rewarding combat with XP is the most ridiculous mechanic ever. If D:OS had this mechanic then you skip half of the game. Why have an intricate combat system and not reward combat with XP? Doesn't make any sense, unless you are making a game called Pacifist: The Pacification or Stealth: Ghost Stealth.

There are many ways to prevent double-dipping of XP and to not make the violent solution the most profitable XP wise. But at least PoE is the only game that will have this stupid mechanic.

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*cough*

Deus Ex, Vampire: Bloodlines.
Dang, the best RPG's ever all have this mechanic too. Must be something there.

Also look at how everyone avoids combat in those games... wait; no, they don't.
But I've discussed all those fake strawmans too much on Obsidians boards to repeat it here.

Okay, humour me. Give a single instance where XP for peace is higher than for war. Not including cheatery double-dip "get charisma XP then kill them all anyway"...

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Oh right, I forgot Deus Ex and Bloodlines, those games with tactical, group based combat that don't have an extremely large focus on stealth.

OH SNAP.

Those games are a completely different beast with large focus on stealth and no tactical and strategical combat. What are you going to come up for your next strawman? Final Fantasy is great, so that is why random encounters would be great for an isometric Baldur's Gate-like game? DOOM is a great shooter, so PoE should play like a shooter?

stupid

Last edited by dlux; 24/07/14 02:16 PM.
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Back on topic, yes, another example would be what to do about the guards who were supposed to check out the lighthouse. Assuming you checked it out for them, and then told them all of the details, when you get back to Captain Aureus you can either say they did it, or that you did it. If you say they did it, you get like 6k exp. If you say you did it, you get 3k exp and the Blunt trait, which imo is worth a hell of a lot more than 3k exp, especially if duo lone wolfing

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Originally Posted by dlux

Not rewarding combat with XP is the most ridiculous mechanic ever.


Sure. If we're talking about H'n'S games. In RPGs I think it is pretty amazing idea. I always liked RPGs which let you take any approach you want, diplomacy, stealth, combat. You should get XP for finishing the quests, etc. - it shouldn't matter which way you accomplish it. And yet most of RPGs force you to murder everything, because stealth/diplomacy gives you 1/10 of the XP you would get from slaughter. I'm happy to hear that PoE will take different approach to the XP, and won't reward stupid brute force solutions more than other play-styles.

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Originally Posted by Shaki
Originally Posted by dlux

Not rewarding combat with XP is the most ridiculous mechanic ever.


Sure. If we're talking about H'n'S games. In RPGs I think it is pretty amazing idea. I always liked RPGs which let you take any approach you want, diplomacy, stealth, combat. You should get XP for finishing the quests, etc. - it shouldn't matter which way you accomplish it. And yet most of RPGs force you to murder everything, because stealth/diplomacy gives you 1/10 of the XP you would get from slaughter. I'm happy to hear that PoE will take different approach to the XP, and won't reward stupid brute force solutions more than other play-styles.

For the umpteenth time, peaceful solutions often give you more xp than violent ones and often also have other benefits. Why is this so hard to understand?

Baldur's Gate did this almost perfectly.

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Originally Posted by dlux

For the umpteenth time, peaceful solutions often give you more xp than violent ones and often also have other benefits. Why is this so hard to understand?

Baldur's Gate did this almost perfectly.


Lol, BG was all about fighting. Stealth and diplomacy were almost non-existent. And anyway, in most of games when peaceful solutions give you exp, you can still go back and slaughter enemies, and get exp again. Balancing combat and other approaches XP is very hard and complicated. Removing combat XP is simple and fair solution. You finish quest - you gain xp. Doesn't matter if you used stealth, diplomacy, or just slaughtered everything.

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Guys, it really depends on what exact kind of an RPG a game is.

DOS is clearly one of those that are heavily focused on action and combat as its main feature.

Pillars of Eternity clearly isnt, or doesnt want to be so focused on actually killing enemies as the main source (ahem) of XP.

New Torment will do that even less. For example.

Back to OS, considering its focus on action and combat there are several quest solutions that give very big rewards for different diplomatic solutions. But this game cannot be a different type of an RPG then it is.

AND most importantly, you cannot expect that every solution and every choice will give you same amounts of XP or other rewards because that completely removes the core feature of choices and consequences - and that makes the game less of an RPG.

Because then there is no difference to anything you do (including different choices in skills and stats) and that is an action game. Not an RPG.




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Originally Posted by Shaki
Originally Posted by dlux

For the umpteenth time, peaceful solutions often give you more xp than violent ones and often also have other benefits. Why is this so hard to understand?

Baldur's Gate did this almost perfectly.


Lol, BG was all about fighting. Stealth and diplomacy were almost non-existent.

Of course it was mostly about fighting, because it is a combat based game. There were many dimplomatic and non-violent ways of ending quests, many of which gave the player much more XP than a violent solution.

Originally Posted by Shaki

And anyway, in most of games when peaceful solutions give you exp, you can still go back and slaughter enemies, and get exp again.

There are ways to prevent XP double-dipping for those who cannot control themselves after turning in a quest. "Designer is lazy or incompetent" is not a good excuse.

Originally Posted by Shaki

Balancing combat and other approaches XP is very hard and complicated. Removing combat XP is simple and fair solution. You finish quest - you gain xp. Doesn't matter if you used stealth, diplomacy, or just slaughtered everything.

It's only a problem if the designer is lazy and/or incompetent.

What about any combat situation that has nothing to do with a quest, will you engage in optional combat for no reward? Of course not. Will you try to slip by every single combat situation unless it is a boss with good loot? Of course you will. Will combat feel unfulfilling because the game will force combat on the player in certain situations and not reward him accordingly? Of course it will.

... But you seem to know better, D:OS can apparently never be a great game because it rewards the player for combat and in turn doesn't make half of the game completely redundant. hahaha

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Basically what we have here are two different preconceptions.

Some people think that DOS is a game where any approach is valid, as long as it gets the job done.
Some people think that DOS is a hack n slash game where you can occasionally use stealth or diplomancy. (most crpgs in history have been this kind)

For the former, XP should be awarded based on results not methods. I should get XP for completing my goals. So no matter how I complete them, I get the same XP. Every approach is equally valid as every other approach.

For the latter, XP should be awarded for killing things (since that's what the game is primarily about).

Imho DOS is trying to be the former, not the latter, but that's clearly not a universal belief.

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The problem is, that a lot of the enemies aren't really linked to the quests, but to the enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Blinkicide is right.
Like most other RPG's here too combat XP is so excessive that it pretty much always thriumps any peaceful paths.

Which is why I look forward to Pillars of Eternity not having combat XP. A lot of people whined, complained and threatened about that, but it's really the only reason to properly give alternative solutions without putting one clearly infront of the other XP-wise...


Yeah, I was as well quite irritated about this. Evading some guards with sneaking. invisibility, etc punish you with quite a lot xp loss and there is no real good reason for that. Actually iirc even Torment had a lot of non-combat xp for different solutions to problems that made sure that you do not fall behind in xp for being to clever for combat.

I put this into the same category as the late and incomplete translation, missing dice in my collectors edition, only 2 companion characters, which are not fleshed out much, etc: Budget and time issues.

Makes me a little sad, but I am still very, very happy with the game, so what? Could be the game even better? Jup. Is it still better than Baldurs Gate 1? Yes! So I am quite happy and hope for the next Larian game which maybe does spend just a little more time and money on the polish.

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