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Doz Offline OP
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** NB : Using another person/company's IP is illegal - What that other individual/company does in relation to it is different in each case (from allowing it to legal action)

In an effort to not derail individual mod threads, I am making this one to be a central point of discussion for concerns over IP/Copyright issues when using other games as inspiration/direct influence. Please use this thread for discussion (robust as needed) on this issue and post specific examples of individual companies tolerance or otherwise of modding for GENERAL AWARENESS - The purpose of this thread is general awareness so mod makers can make at least a somewhat informed judgement on their mod. Note that I am not a legal professional and be aware that obtaining legal advice and/or approaching the company responsible for the IP is the ONLY definitive way to know how they will react!

Individuals should be aware that by directly recreating a separate game as a mod, the copyright holder of the original game is likely to have legal avenues to pursue. Even if some changes are made there may still be a case for a copyright infringement.

If a company is made aware of a mod using their IP, a range of responses are possible. Cease and desist letters have been issued to mod creators (eg. to the Middle Earth Roleplaying Project mod for Skyrim) while some companies either turn a blind eye or do not mind. (Goldeneye Source, Tristram in Skyrim etc)

A few key points to avoid:
- If you start charging for a mod, it makes the IP/copyright infringement much more serious as you are profiting from it.
- If you are ripping models etc out of a game for use in a mod it can also escalate the stakes.

There are many discussions on the Internet about legality of mods directly/indirectly referencing third party IP however at the end of the day, the people commenting are rarely in the legal profession (let alone involved in IP/electronic copyright law) so take the advice with a grain of salt. Until a company is approached about/made aware of a mod using their IP and formally replies, you cannot be sure of their stance on the issue. (Noting that some have previously happily tolerated free mods while others have pursued legal action)

Imitation/homage/covering is nothing new in art. Some people may do it for the modding experience, some for the love of a particular game, to recreate memories or to make it the game it 'could' have been. Mod creators should be aware of the risks and be aware that it is always safest to approach the company that owns the IP if they dont want their mod to be subject to legal action. If you work on a mod based on an IP you do not own there may very well be no issues, but you may find that all your work is for nothing if you are given the hard word to stop.

*** It is not legal to use another party's IP in your mod - repercussions of this will vary from party to party. It is tolerated in some instances but if you want to be safe - ASK THE IP OWNER ***

In the meantime, happy modding!



Other reading:
An excellent discussion of legality and how to gain permission:
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/Legacy:Mod_Copyright

Food for thought discussion
http://games.on.net/2012/08/legal-opinion-can-free-mods-get-away-with-copyright-infringement/

Mod that has received a cease and desist letter
http://www.moddb.com/mods/merp-middle-earth-roleplaying-project

Last edited by Doz; 27/07/14 09:10 AM.
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Very good idea to make a thread about this.

I was actually thinking about making a standalone small, limited campaign based on a book IP, not some other game.
Which is the same thing when IP and copyright laws and practices are concerned.

I have no idea what the owner would think about it, probably nothing nice, considering what i know about some of their opinions and the fact that i would have to "borrow" whole parts of the book, some specific events, dialogues and characters to make the mod have meaning. Which would then seem like a fan fiction project of sorts, if i add my own content, or as a complete ripoff if i just copy the writer text and events.

I guess i could maybe find some way to make contact and ask anyway.

And then go rogue when the writer threatens me.

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Can you stop posting these threads, it's so annoying really. Who cares and if you really do - every lawyer can give you the only one and true answer, probably within less than 5 mins. If you really got something to sell that will make enough to bother, maybe discuss it with your lawyer or in a law related board instead of in a mod forum for an indie game?! Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws. So maybe you can use other stuff and maybe you can't. Maybe you can sell mods and maybe you can't. Maybe you can combine both and become rich and famous.

So please stop spaming the mod boards with this boring and utterly useless topic, or at least keep it to one thread instead of spaming new ones, thanks.

I'm back to modding.




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Originally Posted by Eamid
Can you stop posting these threads, it's so annoying really. Who cares and if you really do - every lawyer can give you the only one and true answer, probably within less than 5 mins. If you really got something to sell that will make enough to bother, maybe discuss it with your lawyer or in a law related board instead of in a mod forum for an indie game?! Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws. So maybe you can use other stuff and maybe you can't. Maybe you can sell mods and maybe you can't. Maybe you can combine both and become rich and famous.

So please stop spaming the mod boards with this boring and utterly useless topic, or at least keep it to one thread instead of spaming new ones, thanks.

I'm back to modding.



Lol, no one is making you reply or even read it in the first place.

"Boring" is your opinion only.

It's not useless either, as there may be some new modders out there who aren't even aware of the possibilities of copyright infringement.

Post is informative. Yours is the one that is useless, because all it is, is you complaining for no good reason. If something is "boring", why even bother clicking on the thread in the first place? So you can complain for the sake of complaining, it seems.

:P

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Yeah, I agree this is a good discussion. Ignore that other guy.

I am currently working on a mod inspired by the original Diablo. But to avoid copyright stuff, I am avoiding using the same NPC names, the plot and story will be rewritten to be something new (I have a neat idea for an ending already), I have a musician who is helping make some music. However, the main town (which I renamed also) has the same basic layout as Tristram. The Cathedral is planned to have 24 levels (big project, I know)

I've been doing my copyright research and found that you can not copyright ideas, names, facts, or concepts. It's like walking on eggshells with this stuff, but given the right amount of changes people should be ok.

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Yeah ok ignore that law stuff doesn't belong in a moddin forum.


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Originally Posted by Eamid
Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws.

My good friend is a lawyer who helped Westeros: Total War with their Cease & Desist letter. It pretty much boils down to this: You use a company's IP, it is within their right to tell you to stop and you pretty much have to do it. The thing is, even if you say no, they can shut down your website by telling your hosts, then the hosts would then have to face the legal challenge and they will most likely just turn you off, less of a loss. Your forum has advertisements on it? You are profiting from the IP by people visiting your thread in regards to that mod.

The only way you can win is by compromise or reaching an agreement with the company involved.

US case-law also has a lack of legal precedents when it comes to this field as well, because simply no one is stupid enough to pay thousands of dollars in legal and lawyer fees to challenge an IP holder over making a mod. There are a few very good lawyers who would be interested and take on such cases (such as my good friend) but as a realist, it isn't something you want to consider.

Last edited by Tiaexz; 25/07/14 04:56 PM.
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This discussion can have a very positive consequence in sobering up some people and preventing them from wasting who knows how many days of work only to suddenly find themselves in front of wall of warnings and cease and desist letters.

Btw, if anyone knows, i think most of us here are from Europe so... how much weight a US cease and desist note would hold here, considering this?

I presume a lot.

But maybe not that much?

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Originally Posted by Eamid
Yeah ok ignore that law stuff doesn't belong in a moddin forum.



Information on "law stuff" that could potentially force you to take down your mod and losing all the time you spent on making it, doesn't belong in a modding forum?

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Originally Posted by Eamid
Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws.

My good friend is a lawyer who helped Westeros: Total War with their Cease & Desist letter. It pretty much boils down to this: You use a company's IP, it is within their right to tell you to stop and you pretty much have to do it. The thing is, even if you say no, they can shut down your website by telling your hosts, then the hosts would then have to face the legal challenge and they will most likely just turn you off, less of a loss. Your forum has advertisements on it? You are profiting from the IP by people visiting your thread in regards to that mod.

The only way you can win is by compromise or reaching an agreement with the company involved.

US case-law also has a lack of legal precedents when it comes to this field as well, because simply no one is stupid enough to pay thousands of dollars in legal and lawyer fees to challenge an IP holder over making a mod. There are a few very good lawyers who would be interested and take on such cases (such as my good friend) but as a realist, it isn't something you want to consider.


This.

Which is why I was advising the Diablo modder to actually try to turn his work into something original where no issues will arise.

Any fan who is a true fan of something will have the decency to ask permission from the author it's called: Respect. If the author/owner declines you just accept it, you don't waste your time, and the owner stays happy. Both parties win.

I see only one purpose for someone to completely ignore this do a mod based on another persons work/property, it's because they can't come up with anything original or good enough so they decide to ride off the fame or quality of another's work.

It's like one comic book artist copying the work of another comic books artist, using the same characters, background, and theme, then creating future storyline and releasing it to the public for free. It's plain wrong. Illegal, and lowers the reputation of the copying artist.

Unless they have of course come to an agreement where both parties are happy then no one can stand in their way.

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Originally Posted by Eamid
Yeah ok ignore that law stuff doesn't belong in a moddin forum.



It does belong in a modding forum. Before DOTA 2 was made, Blizzard put up a fight against Valve because DOTA was a mod for Warcraft III. They ended up having to settle the franchise name in court and the issue with the settlement is confidential between the companies.

If you talk about legality, modders also have the right against companies using their own assets or ideas as in the case of DOTA, League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth. I don't know about the upcoming Heroes of the Storm though.

Oh, and if you are a player of dota, skeleton king (which is probably gotten from Diablo franchise) was renamed wraith king in DOTA 2. Probably due to copyright issues.


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Originally Posted by Eamid
Can you stop posting these threads, it's so annoying really. ............

So please stop spaming the mod boards with this boring and utterly useless topic, or at least keep it to one thread instead of spaming new ones, thanks.


Not sure what you are referring to here regarding 'posting these threads'? This topic came up in another thread so I created this one to (ideally) limit discussion to one place. This is also the first thread I have posted.


The intent is to raise awareness - Some people will have no idea that making a 'fan mod' of another game may result in legal action. I have not heard of any mods that have been sued as a result of it however cease and desist letters are not uncommon. Equally there are many mods out there that IP owners turn a blind eye to, are not aware of or even tolerate.

In my mind (and others evidently) this is NOT an 'utterly useless topic' as it may make some people aware of the risks that may not otherwise be.


At the end of the day - if someone wants to devote hours of their own time to a (non commercial...) mod based on another IP, as long as they are aware that they may have to stop work on it then others cant really criticize them for wasting their time. Who knows - the passion to recreate/re-inspire their favourite game may be what it takes to get them hooked on modding/get a greater understanding of the modding tools. Have a look at the Arma mod boards to get an idea of how many people have started modding this way...


A supportive and thriving mod community around this game can only be a good thing and that is the spirit of this post.

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Originally Posted by blazed
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Originally Posted by Eamid
Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws.

My good friend is a lawyer who helped Westeros: Total War with their Cease & Desist letter. It pretty much boils down to this: You use a company's IP, it is within their right to tell you to stop and you pretty much have to do it. The thing is, even if you say no, they can shut down your website by telling your hosts, then the hosts would then have to face the legal challenge and they will most likely just turn you off, less of a loss. Your forum has advertisements on it? You are profiting from the IP by people visiting your thread in regards to that mod.

The only way you can win is by compromise or reaching an agreement with the company involved.

US case-law also has a lack of legal precedents when it comes to this field as well, because simply no one is stupid enough to pay thousands of dollars in legal and lawyer fees to challenge an IP holder over making a mod. There are a few very good lawyers who would be interested and take on such cases (such as my good friend) but as a realist, it isn't something you want to consider.


This.

Which is why I was advising the Diablo modder to actually try to turn his work into something original where no issues will arise.

Any fan who is a true fan of something will have the decency to ask permission from the author it's called: Respect. If the author/owner declines you just accept it, you don't waste your time, and the owner stays happy. Both parties win.

I see only one purpose for someone to completely ignore this do a mod based on another persons work/property, it's because they can't come up with anything original or good enough so they decide to ride off the fame or quality of another's work.

It's like one comic book artist copying the work of another comic books artist, using the same characters, background, and theme, then creating future storyline and releasing it to the public for free. It's plain wrong. Illegal, and lowers the reputation of the copying artist.

Unless they have of course come to an agreement where both parties are happy then no one can stand in their way.


I still don't understand why you care so much. If he wants to "waste" his time, let him.

If Blizzard doesn't care then why should anyone else?

If they do care, then they'll do something about it.

But apparently you'd just rather argue, point your finger and go "shame on you for not being original".

Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Forge
Originally Posted by blazed
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Originally Posted by Eamid
Just face it, you won't get meaningful replies here unless you're lucky enough to find someone who's reading this and actually studied licensing laws.

My good friend is a lawyer who helped Westeros: Total War with their Cease & Desist letter. It pretty much boils down to this: You use a company's IP, it is within their right to tell you to stop and you pretty much have to do it. The thing is, even if you say no, they can shut down your website by telling your hosts, then the hosts would then have to face the legal challenge and they will most likely just turn you off, less of a loss. Your forum has advertisements on it? You are profiting from the IP by people visiting your thread in regards to that mod.

The only way you can win is by compromise or reaching an agreement with the company involved.

US case-law also has a lack of legal precedents when it comes to this field as well, because simply no one is stupid enough to pay thousands of dollars in legal and lawyer fees to challenge an IP holder over making a mod. There are a few very good lawyers who would be interested and take on such cases (such as my good friend) but as a realist, it isn't something you want to consider.


This.

Which is why I was advising the Diablo modder to actually try to turn his work into something original where no issues will arise.

Any fan who is a true fan of something will have the decency to ask permission from the author it's called: Respect. If the author/owner declines you just accept it, you don't waste your time, and the owner stays happy. Both parties win.

I see only one purpose for someone to completely ignore this do a mod based on another persons work/property, it's because they can't come up with anything original or good enough so they decide to ride off the fame or quality of another's work.

It's like one comic book artist copying the work of another comic books artist, using the same characters, background, and theme, then creating future storyline and releasing it to the public for free. It's plain wrong. Illegal, and lowers the reputation of the copying artist.

Unless they have of course come to an agreement where both parties are happy then no one can stand in their way.


I still don't understand why you care so much. If he wants to "waste" his time, let him.

If Blizzard doesn't care then why should anyone else?

If they do care, then they'll do something about it.

But apparently you'd just rather argue, point your finger and go "shame on you for not being original".

Get over it.


Your post offers nothing absolutely nothing... nothing at all besides a bait to offend me and troll.

So butt hurt that I told someone to be original and avoid future copyright problems, its not just to the creator of the diablo mod but to every Modder out there, STOP STEALING shit and ask the damn permissions, it's only an email away, or is it the fact that 90% of the time they will actually say reply NO?

Blizzard do care, just wait until the court case is a profit and not a cost.

Your argument of not wanting to ask legit permissions is invalid.



Last edited by blazed; 27/07/14 10:26 PM.
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Here's another way to look at it... maybe it might open your mind a bit.

You spend hours coming up with original content for a mod, new characters, story etc., you put it all together, and pump it out as fast as you can to the public.

Then someone comes along and likes what you have made, but then he remakes your work adding much better Graphics, 3D models, removing bugs, making it less clunky, suddenly his mod is getting more downloads.

Sometime down the line this guy's got way more popular than your mod, he's getting donations, praises, and even getting an offer from the original developer.

I think it's quite clear why people just don't want others to copy their work and ask people to be at least original enough to actually earn their rewards.

Last edited by blazed; 27/07/14 10:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by blazed
Here's another way to look at it... maybe it might open your mind a bit.

You spend hours coming up with original content for a mod, new characters, story etc., you put it all together, and pump it out as fast as you can to the public.

Then someone comes along and likes what you have made, but then he remakes your work adding much better Graphics, 3D models, removing bugs, making it less clunky, suddenly his mod is getting more downloads.

Sometime down the line this guy's got way more popular than your mod, he's getting donations, praises, and even getting an offer from the original developer.

I think it's quite clear why people just don't want others to copy their work and ask people to be at least original enough to actually earn their rewards.


Your comparison sucks. You're comparing someone making a mod from a highly successful game that's already made the company lots of money, to someone copying a mod from another mod. Bad comparison is bad on so many different levels.

All this guy wants to do is remake a game he loved so much into a Divinity mod, and share it with people who might also enjoy it.

I mean, as long as he's not trying to create a whole new game with the Diablo name and trying to sell it to the general public, I really doubt it's ever going to be an issue.

Again, other people have made Diablo mods in other games and guess what? They are still around. Which means what? Blizzard didn't care enough to do anything about it.

So since this argument is going in a circle, and since you can't do anything about what the mod creator does with his time, and since I really don't care about what you think anymore, I'm going to stop replying to a useless argument.

Have a nice day! smile

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Originally Posted by Forge
-Quote removed because of really poor arguement to justify Copyright infringement-
Have a nice day! smile


My comparison sucks because one is stealing from a poor modder and another from a highly successful company? Wow just wow, this guy is Robin Hood!

So I understand you are supporting copyright infringement, stealing, riding off the fame of another title, not wanting to ask permissions from the original developer.

Sounds pretty much like a scumbag thing to do. You are clearly a thief in mind.

You cannot even justfity stealing in the real world even if one was starving or dying. It's still illegal and you will still get arrested and spend time in a jail cell if you get caught.

If you are poor you need to go to a food bank specifically for this kind of thing.

So what on earth makes you think you can steal copyrighted material for your pleasure?

Stick to royalty free material or ask permissions.

Also keep adding those smilies to the end of your post to reflect the fact that they are just a joke of a post.

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On a side note: I am going to send Blizzard an email asking them permission to recreate diablo 2 as mod using Divinity, so I can copy and paste the email here I get back from them, which I'm pretty sure will be a "Thanks but no Thanks." request. Which should really end the discussion, but yeah some people are clearly into stealing shit... and don't care.

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Regardless of the reply, the intent of this thread is to educate people as to what MAY happen - Blizzard takes action to prevent some mods from continuing and disregards others. Some companies are aggressive about closing down mods, most will not care unless it gains significant popularity.

Feel free to keep further discussion to this thread to avoid derailing other threads (Which can easily be done by simply providing a link to this one in the thread in question)

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From another thread - Good information from a SME point of view.

Originally Posted by Kurausu

As a lawyer, I was very interested in this thread.

The way I see it is that if these two things happen:

1 - No money is involved.
2 - No posing as new version or as the original.

it's very likely that you will never have problems or, at most, you will be asked to take your project down with no other demands.


From what I read from both sources, all cases where people got sued were deviations from what a mod is, which, if i understand correctly, is:

A modification made to a game (with tools provided by the game itself or not) to attain effects that the unmodded game didn't have or couldn't do.

Also, a clone game could can be defined as this:

A game which is intrinsically identical to the other one, which includes more than main elements (usually a judge decides the criteria used to define closeness and other ways of finding if there is a copy and who copied who)

Both definitions can intersect as one can argue that with too much modifications a mod becomes a new entity, different than the original (It's the same principle we used for songs which use samples from other songs)

SO, if you do not monetize, do not use direct assets and do not pose as the original, you will have a rock solid defense in case someone get angry and try to sue you for your mod.

In my experience as a lawyer I've seen a lot of people suing for stupid things and getting absolutely nothing. My colleagues that work with intellectual properties are adamant that only when things are glaringly copied or when two big companies are fighting it out on court is that they actually do something, the rest are not even good cases.

Last edited by Doz; 05/08/14 10:33 AM.
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