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#531612 29/07/14 03:13 PM
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Previously titled "Suggestions for New Talents to add to the game."

Per my request to Raze, I can now edit this post even after it gets old thanks to slightly elevated privileges (and also delete spam); this means I won't need to keep making new versions of this thread. Thanks Raze! smile

Currently, it's virtually impossible to make this into a mod because (from what I've been told) there isn't support for mods to edit or create new Talents. (The Crafting stuff is currently doable.) However, when Talent-modding functionality comes, I'd be inclined to make this myself. The core aim of the mod is balance changes (especially regarding resistance stacking) and more interesting build options.
("Changes to Crafting")

[Earth/Fire/Air/Water] Essences on defensive gear would now override previously applied Essences and Rubies. Each would provide 5% x Crafting of the appropriate resistance, to a maximum of 40% at Crafting 8.

Void Essence would now consistently give defensive pieces of gear Tenebrium resistance, 5% x Crafting.

Rubies would require Crafting 4 to apply and provide only 5% to all elemental resistances. They would also override previously applied Essences.

("Changes to Difficulty Levels (Easy/Normal/Hard)")

All previous difficulty setting adjustments would be removed.

Normal: No adjustments to players or monsters
Easy: +1 to all player Attributes; +10% to all player Resistances; -1 to all monster/NPC Attributes and Abilities (cannot reduce an Ability below 0); -10% to all monster/NPC Resistances
Hard: -1 to all player Attributes; -10% to all player Resistances; +1 to all monster/NPC Attributes and Abilities; +10% to all monster/NPC Resistances

In addition, some specific adjustments to last-half-of-game difficulty may be made to make battles more challenging for all difficulties.

("Changes to Abilities")

The Tenebrium ability would be removed from the game. Its functionality would be replaced by Talents, and the core weapon abilities (ex: One-Handed) would apply to the appropriate Tenebrium weapons.

The Sneaking ability would no longer reduce the AP cost of sneaking. Instead, each point would give 10% chance of an attack not breaking sneaking while attacking. Because the skill no longer reduces the AP cost of sneaking, the cost of activation would be reduced to 3 Action Points. Finally, any Backstab attack would never break Sneaking (although a monster turning around due to a miss can still break Sneaking because of the vision cone).

("Changes to Moloch (End of Time)")

Now accepts 1 Talent Point to give 6 Ability Points (nerf from 1:10).
Now accepts 4 Ability Points to give 1 Attribute Point (boost from 5:1).

("Changes to Talents (biggest section)")

Talents to be deleted: All Skilled Up, Bigger and Better, Demon, Glass Cannon (but see Lone Wolf), Packmule, Thick Skin, Weather the Storm

Talents to be modified without a name change (new versions below): Elemental Ranger, Headstrong, Know-it-All, Leech, Lone Wolf (see also Thirst for Knowledge), Picture of Health, Sidewinder, Swift Footed, Quickdraw, Weatherproof

Talents/abilities to be modified with a name change (new versions below): Arrow Recovery (now Thrifty), Ice King (now Arctic Armour), Tenebrium ability (now Dark Knight and Tenebrium Handler)

Talent unmodified except for a name change: Lightning Rod (now Unflappable)

Talents replacing Weather the Storm: Amphibian, Dirt Magnet, Heatseeker, Lightning Rod (new talent, does not replace old/renamed Lightning Rod)

Completely new Talents: Arma Arcanum, Barbarian, Fashion Plate, Go For the Throat, Graven Importance, Inner Fire, Jailbreaker, Legerdemain, Macromanager, Mind over Matter, Resolute Technique, Savour the Moment, School's Out, Thirst for Knowledge

Amphibian
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 1
Gives you 10% x Hydrosophist extra Water Resistance.

Arctic Armour
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 5
Enemies who strike you with melee attacks are Chilled.

Arma Arcanum
Prerequisite: Shield Specialist 5
Half of your Blocking chance applies to Spells as well as Attacks.

Barbarian
Prerequisite: None
Spells, scrolls and books cost you 2 extra Action Points to use, but gives you 2 bonus points in Strength.

Dark Knight
Prerequisites: Level 15
Increases your damage with Tenebrium weapons by 10%.
Notes: The book on Tenebrium handling found in Sacred Stone would grant this talent instead of its current effect. Tenebrium weapons would use the core weapon abilities (One-Handed, Bow, etc) instead of the Tenebrium ability, which would no longer exist. Using the book bypasses the level requirement. Using the book on a character who already has the talent fails and does not consume the book. This talent does not grant Rot immunity.

Dirt Magnet
Prerequisite: Geomancer 1
Gives you 10% x Geomancer extra Earth and Poison Resistance.

Elemental Ranger
Prerequisite: Expert Marksman 5
Arrows inflict bonus elemental damage depending on the surface on which your target is standing.
Note: Replaces the current version of Elemental Ranger. (The change is rather minor.)

Fashion Plate
Prerequisite: Armour Specialist 5
The attribute requirements of your equipment are reduced by 3.

Go For the Throat
Prerequisite: Scoundrel 5
Your Critical Strikes bypass enemy Armour.

Graven Importance
Prerequisite: Geomancer 5
If you would be Petrified, instead you are Fortified.

Headstrong
Prerequisite: Man-at-Arms 5
Gives you a 20% bonus against being Frozen, Stunned, Petrified and Knocked Down.
Note: Replaces the current version of Headstrong. The only difference is the prerequisite change. See also: Sidewinder.

Heatseeker
Prerequisite: Pyrotechnic 1
Gives you 10% x Pyrotechnic extra Fire Resistance.

Inner Fire
Prerequisite: Pyrotechnic 5
Your body Warms itself at the beginning of each of your turns.
Note: Warm duration is 1 turn, usually ending just before a new Warm begins, but can combine with other statuses (Frozen, Chilled, or preexisting Warm).

Jailbreaker
Prerequisite: Lockpicking 1
You do not require a lockpick to pick a lock. Gives you a +1 bonus to Lockpicking while using a lockpick.

Know-it-All
Prerequisites: None
Decreases everyone's attitude towards you by 20 but gives you 2 extra points in Intelligence.
Note: Replaces current version of Know-it-All; buffed to compete with Moloch.

Leech
Prerequisite: Witchcraft 5
You absorb blood you are standing in, healing you.
Note: Replaces the current version of Leech. The effect isn't nerfed at all, it's just given a much tougher prerequisite.

Legerdemain
Prerequisites: None
It costs you 1 less AP to equip weapons in combat. Also gives you a bonus point in Pickpocketing.

Lightning Rod
Prerequisite: Aerotheurge 1
Gives you 10% x Aerotheurge extra Lightning Resistance.
Note: This does NOT replace the current version of Lightning Rod. It would still exist but with a rename.

Lone Wolf
Prerequisites: Level 3, one of the two main characters
Doubles your Starting and Recovery AP, but you can no longer have a companion.
Note: Replaces the current versions of Lone Wolf and Glass Cannon. This balances the AP doubling by removing the AP (and health and everything else) of the companion. The ability point bonus is removed because Lone Wolf + Glass Cannon is now one talent instead of two; see Thirst for Knowledge.

Macromanager
Prerequisites: Leadership 5
You can control two summons at once.

Mind Over Matter
Prerequisites: None
Gives you 2 bonus points in Telekinesis but you lose a point in Strength.

Picture of Health
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 1
Gives you 5% x Man-at-Arms extra Vitality.
Note: Replaces the current version of Picture of Health. (The change is rather minor.)

Quickdraw
Prerequisite: Expert Marksman 5
Special arrows require 1 less AP to use.

Resolute Technique
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 5
Your attacks always hit, but you cannot deal Critical Strikes.

Savour the Moment
Prerequisites: None
Incompatible with: Walk it Off
All statuses on you last an additional turn, including negative ones.

School's Out
Prerequisites: Level 3, Thirst for Knowledge
Nullifies the effect of Thirst for Knowledge from this point onward.

Sidewinder
Prerequisite: Scoundrel 5
Removes your defence penalty when flanked.
Note: Replaces the current version of Sidewinder. The only difference is the prerequisite change. See also: Headstrong.

Swift Footed
Prerequisite: Scoundrel 1
Gives you a 10% x Scoundrel movement bonus.
Note: Replaces the current version of Swift Footed.

Tenebrium Handler
Prerequisites: Level 15
You do not contract Rot from handling Tenebrium.
Notes: The quest given by Brandon would grant this talent as a reward instead of its current reward. Tenebrium weapons would use the core weapon abilities (One-Handed, Bow, etc) instead of the Tenebrium ability. The quest reward bypasses the level requirement.

Thirst For Knowledge
Prerequisites: None
Starting the level-up after taking this talent, increasing your Attributes costs twice as many Attribute Points, but you gain an additional Ability Point per level.
See also: School's Out

Thrifty
Prerequisites: None
Gives you a 20% chance to recover a potion, scroll, or special arrow after using it.

Weatherproof
Prerequisite: Bodybuilding 5
Makes you immune to environmental effects.
Note: Replaces the current version of Weatherproof. The only difference is the prerequisite.

Original ideas for Head Start, Legerdemain, Go For the Throat by dirigible; also, assistance with Lone Wolf, Thirst for Knowledge, and Moloch redesign. Resolute Technique inspired by an idea by Cameron9428 and the game Path of Exile. Macromanager inspired by an idea by Fellgnome. In almost all cases, these inspirations have been heavily edited by me.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 10:05 PM.
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We don't need more sources of elemental resist and they don't make for interesting talents or gameplay.

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Maybe you didn't read the part where I'm suggesting that Weather the Storm be removed from the game. (WtS is either the second or third most overpowered talent in the game at the moment.) Are you saying these would be boring/redundant even in an environment without WtS?

In terms of them being interesting, I beg to differ. That would be like saying Picture of Health isn't interesting because all it does is boost your Vitality. In particular, Fire Adaptation would be powerful and interesting with Explode (which is a spell I'm admittedly biased towards).

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 29/07/14 03:57 PM.
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I don't think that nerfing warriors and buffing mages is a good solution to 'weather the storm'.
I already feel like mages are OP. Taking some of the tankiness away from Man at Arms and giving it to the magic skills just exacerbates the problem. I agree with splitting the resistance into 4 different talents, and making each talent stronger. But I would rework them to scale off of Willpower or Bodybuilding (or both), so that mages don't have a monopoly on their benefits.

So example:
Water Adaptation
Each point of Willpower and Bodybuilding increases Water Resistance by 5%


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SUGGESTIONS
Jack of all Trades
Increase all of your Abilities by 1, but you may not level any of them past 3, except with equipment bonuses
Balanced Lifestyle
Gain an Attribute point every level, instead of every other level. You may not increase any of your attributes past 10, except with equipment bonuses.
Adaptable
Removes the AP cost of equipping weapons and armor in combat
Exorcist
Gain "Blessed" after critically striking an Undead.
Killer
Gain "Enraged" after critically striking a living humanoid.
Hunter
Gain "Haste" after critically striking a monster.
Planar Knight
Gain "Elemental Absorbtion" after critically striking an elemental, void creature, or demon.

Last edited by dirigible; 29/07/14 06:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Talents to be deleted: Demon, Glass Cannon, Ice King, Thick Skin, Weather the Storm
Talents to be modified (new versions below): Leech, Picture of Health, Lone Wolf, Swift Footed

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Arctic Armour
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 5
Enemies who strike you with melee attacks are Chilled.

Do you really want a talent that rewards pure casters (who else puts 15 points into Hydro?) for being hit with melee weapons?

Quote
Arma Arcanum
Prerequisite: Shield Specialist 5
Half of your Blocking chance applies to Spells as well as Attacks.

So you are saying that the 25% additional elemental resistance for Warriors is one of the most OP talents and are suggesting something that gives you a ~40% chance to completely ignore single targeted spells and their status effects including those with poison/tenebrium damage?
Quote
Earth Adaptation
Prerequisite: Geomancer 1
Gives you 10% x Geomancer extra Earth and Poison Resistance.

Fire Adaptation
Prerequisite: Pyrotechnic 1
Gives you 10% x Pyrotechnic extra Fire Resistance.

Water Adaptation
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 1
Gives you 10% x Hydrosophist extra Water Resistance.

Lightning Adaptation
Prerequisite: Aerotheurge 1
Gives you 10% x Aerotheurge extra Lightning Resistance.
You can wear 4 pieces of armor which can be enchanted to each add 25% resistance vs the 4 elements, making these talents rather useless.

Quote
Fashion Plate
Prerequisite: Armour Specialist 5
The attribute requirements of your equipment are reduced by 3.

What kind of char would want this talent and could afford the Prerequisite?

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Go For the Throat
Prerequisite: Scoundrel 5
Your Critical Strikes bypass enemy Armour.

I have no hard data on the average armor values, but with crit rates of up to 50%, this seems relatively useful.

Quote
Graven Importance
Prerequisite: Bodybuilding 5
If you would be Petrified, instead you are both Fortified and Slowed.
I have finished the game twice and did not get petrified once...

Quote
Head Start
Prerequisite: Level 5
You get a 3 bonus to Maximum and Starting Action Points, but take a -1 penalty to Recovery Action Points.

With Glass Cannon removed, increasing the maximum AP isn't that much of a bonus anymore. A SPD 15 CON 5 PER 5 build would still have enough Max AP to not act as a bottleneck for the Start and Turn AP. If a char with this talent would want to match the max AP with the turn AP, he would have need to have at least 25 SPD +2 additional points for every point of CON above 5.
Compared to trading the talent for 2 Speed, you are trading 2 SAP (and 3 relatively irrelevant MAP) for 2 TAP.

Quote
Inner Fire
Prerequisite: Pyrotechnic 5
Your body Warms itself at the beginning of each of your turns.
Note: Warm duration is 1 turn, usually ending just before a new Warm begins, but can combine with other statuses (Frozen, Chilled, or preexisting Warm).

No thanks, I don't want to catch fire when I get near a campfire / cast Haste. I'd rather boost my saving throws for that points.

Quote
Jailbreaker
Prerequisite: Lockpicking 1
You do not require a lockpick to pick a lock. Gives you a +1 bonus to Lockpicking while using a lockpick.

There are close to no locks that need to be picked and a ton of lockpicks available - there are even 2 recipes for them.

Quote
Leech
Prerequisite: Witchcraft 5
You absorb blood you are standing in, healing you.
Note: Replaces the current version of Leech. The effect isn't nerfed at all, it's just given a much tougher prerequisite.
That doesn't really solve the problem with this talent.

Quote
Lone Wolf
Prerequisites: None
You can no longer have a companion but you receive a 80% bonus to base vitality, 2 bonus to Recovery and maximum Action Points, 2 bonus points in Bodybuilding and in Willpower, and an extra ability point on level up.
Note: Replaces the current version of Lone Wolf.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the max difficulty of the status effacts that you have to resist is 100. Taking LW would make it relatively easy to get to 10 Willpower/ Bodybuilding, which grants you complete immunity from these effects that allow saving throws.

Quote
Macromanager
Prerequisites: Leadership 5
You can control two summons at once.

With the high aggro of summons, the enemies wouldn't find the time attacking players anymore.

Quote
Mind Over Matter
Prerequisites: None
Gives you 2 bonus points in Telekinesis but you lose a point in Strength.

How does the damage from barrels scale with your level / telekinesis skill?

Quote
Picture of Health
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 1
Gives you 5% x Man-at-Arms extra Vitality.
Note: Replaces the current version of Picture of Health. (The change is rather minor.)

There are few good starting talents, so I like the change.

Quote
Resolute Technique
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 5
Your attacks always hit, but you cannot deal Critical Strikes.
This makes all the chance to hit buffs irrelevant and means a reduced damage output if your cth is > 67% (if all you use is precision stance.)
At the same time it would work extremely well with Ranged weapons on low Perception chars, because these weapons have a low damage multiplicator for critical hits.

Quote
Savour the Moment
Prerequisites: None
Incompatible with: Walk it Off
All statuses on you last an additional turn, including negative ones.

Really risky and only interesting for long battles / powerful high CD abilities (Invulnerability!).

Quote
Swift Footed
Prerequisite: Scoundrel 1
Gives you a 10% x Scoundrel movement bonus.
Note: Replaces the current version of Swift Footed.
+50% Movement is a huge. When you can walk 6 instead of 4m per AP you can reach every enemy in Bow range for 3 AP. Or worse: fire of some range attacks and then retreat to where nothing can reach you.

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Walking Almanac
Prerequisites: None
Gives you a +2 Loremaster bonus for identifying enemies.

Comfortable, but a waste of points.

Quote
Dark Knight
Prerequisites: Level 15
Increases your damage with Tenebrium weapons by 10%.
Notes: The book on Tenebrium handling found in Sacred Stone would grant this talent instead of its current effect. Tenebrium weapons would use the core weapon abilities (One-Handed, Bow, etc) instead of the Tenebrium ability, which would no longer exist. Using the book bypasses the level requirement. Using the book on a character who already has the talent fails and does not consume the book. This talent does not grant Rot immunity.

Tenebrium Handler
Prerequisites: Level 15
You do not contract Rot from handling Tenebrium.
Notes: The quest given by Brandon would grant this talent as a reward instead of its current reward. Tenebrium weapons would use the core weapon abilities (One-Handed, Bow, etc) instead of the Tenebrium ability. The quest reward bypasses the level requirement.

I thin kit is perfectly fine how Tenebrium weapon work, it is just badly communicated to the player, especially when you spend too much time before finishing the Tenebrium quest.

Last edited by eidolon; 29/07/14 06:48 PM.
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@eidelon
Arctic Armor - there are ALREADY talents which reward casters for being hit with melee weapons. All he did is make one of them more useful.
Fashion Plate - people who spread their attribute points out would want this. Anyone multiclassing.
__ Adaptation - The maximum bonus you can get from rubies is 70%, not 100%.
Head Start - you're focusing way too much on the max AP bonus, which is only there to ensure the talent isn't ever useless. Think of this talent as 'you get bonus AP at the beginning of the fight, but after turn 4 this talent turns into a hinderance'.
Leech - it prevents you from taking that extremely powerful talent unless you spec heavily into witchcraft, which most characters will not do.
Lone Wolf - you are wrong. You can pump knockdown chance, stun chance, etc past 100%.
Dark Knight / Tenebrium Handler - you're one of the few people who thinks the current system isn't terrible. Most people hate the way it works, currently.

Last edited by dirigible; 29/07/14 07:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Maybe you didn't read the part where I'm suggesting that Weather the Storm be removed from the game. (WtS is either the second or third most overpowered talent in the game at the moment.) Are you saying these would be boring/redundant even in an environment without WtS?

In terms of them being interesting, I beg to differ. That would be like saying Picture of Health isn't interesting because all it does is boost your Vitality. In particular, Fire Adaptation would be powerful and interesting with Explode (which is a spell I'm admittedly biased towards).


They just become either obvious or pointless choices based on the frequency you encounter said element or subject your characters to that element. Taking fire resist and zombie would be the obvious ones currently, the others would be easy to pass on.

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Arctic armor: I know that Ice King / Demon were available, but that doesn't make the concept of the ability useful.

Fashion Plate requires you to spend 15! points in Armour Specialist, so I would be expecting that this char will be wearing heavy armor. The best Sarongs only need 10 Int and often come with a +2 Int bonus. You hardly want to equip staffs when you have a low int (same thing for Bows. I could only see this being used on a high int char that insists on getting the highest physical defense possible. A more offensive build with heavy armor would have transformed the talent ans AS points for +3 STR and level 4 Man-at-Arms for stuff like Nullify Resistance.

Adaption: The bonus from Rubies scales with the level of the item. Level 18+ (17+?) equipment means a +25% bonus

You are forgetting that the alternative +2 SPD would give you +1 TAP
Lets say you have x AP during the first and y AP during the second turn without any modifiers (total: x+y).
With HS your AP will during the first 2 turns will look like this: x+3, y-1 = x+y+2
With +2 SPD your AP will during the first 2 turns will look like this: x+1, y+1 = x+y+2
So you will have less AP in every battle that lasts more than 3 turns if you choose this instead of investing in Attribute points.

People will spend more heavily in Witchcraft when you give them a reason to. Making your char immune to physical damage is a damn good reason to do so.

Lone Wolf: Yes you can boost your attacks to get a difficulty of 150, but I don't think that the enemies can.

Tenebrium: I am sacrificing 30% extra damage in Cyseal so that I can have 30% more damage on the other 3 maps and be highly flexible regarding my weapon types. That seems to be a really good long term choice.

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Arctic Armor - how is it not useful? Enemy hits you twice = enemy frozen. That's a great talent.
Fashion Plate - it's useful for anyone who wants to wear heavy armor without investing heavily in Strength. That seems pretty straightforward to me.
Head Start - you seem to think that you must choose Head Start INSTEAD of investing in Attribute points. You don't. You can do both. And yes, everything else you said can be summarized as "you get a bonus early in the fight, which becomes a penalty the longer the fight lasts".
People won't make all of their characters Witches to get that talent. If they did, then they've already sacrificed a huge amount of ability points forming a redundant party.
Tenebrium - the problem isn't whether you can powergame it or not. The problem is that its stupid. It makes all of the weapon skills meaningless halfway through act 2, and reduces the variation in character builds. That's two different flavors of bad design.

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Given these talents this is what both my characters would look like talent wise:

Lone Wolf
Macromanager
Savour the Moment
Far Out Man
Fire Adaptation
Zombie
Leech

Without any doubts.

The only considerable variation would be to grab fashion plate and resolute technique, to get bow damage that hits reliably from max range without needing perception or even much dexterity. But that's possibly too demanding on abilities, and a little cheesy.

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Originally Posted by dirigible
I don't think that nerfing warriors and buffing mages is a good solution to 'weather the storm'.
I already feel like mages are OP. Taking some of the tankiness away from Man at Arms and giving it to the magic skills just exacerbates the problem.
I disagree about magic being overpowered. I'm not trying to make like mages are heinously underpowered either, it's just that Weather the Storm truly is too good, especially on Hard, and pushes the melee types of the edge. Two two Man-at-Arms users (one pure melee, one hybrid caster) were by far the two most useful characters in the endgame. Early game, yes, the pure caster was the best, but early game doesn't last forever. You might want to try going full Man-at-Arms on a character and actually sticking with it, with good weapons and plate armour. By the time you get to the Phantom Forest he'll be making your casters look bad in comparison.

The purpose of the Adaptations is to
1. Give the spellcasting classes access to early talents. Right now there are no talents with a casting ability prerequisite less than 5.
2. Separate out the resistances, because a "resist all" talent is just too good due to being too general, while a specific resistance buff leads to more interesting situational play.

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I think the key problem in communication here is that you don't take into account that your main chars can trade talents for 10 Ability points / 2 Attribute points. So using Head Start competes with increasing the SPD of my char by 2 points.

When you are suggesting casters should put Armour Specialist to level 5 so that they can wear heavy armor, why shouldn't meele chars take Witchcraft for Leech? Even low int chars can make good use of Oath, Bloodletting (for Leech), Blind and to a lesser extend Absorb the Elements (int 9 for 100% chance).

Last edited by eidolon; 29/07/14 08:38 PM.
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I think my compromise of having them scale off of Willpower/Bodybuilding works well, then. You think giving it to warriors for free makes warriors OP, I think giving it to mages for free makes mages OP, so instead let anyone have it but make them invest points in will/bodybuilding (which is useful no matter what your build is).
1. understandable. I suggested some low level magic talents last threat, I'll repost em here.
2. I agree completely.

Fish Out of Water
Req rank 1 Hydro. +1 recovery AP while wet, but -1 recovery AP while warm or burning
Salamander
Req rank 1 Pyro. Heal 5% of your max HP per turn while warm or burning but lose 10% of your max HP per turn while frozen.
Toxicologist
Req rank 1 Geo. Poison damage has a 30% chance to increase your Constitution by 2, for 3 turns (does not stack with itself).
Conductor
Req rank 1 Aero. Immune to being Stunned by standing in electrified water. Can still be stunned by other means.
Bloodmage
Req rank 1 Witch. Gain Oath of Desecration effect while bleeding.(yes I know this would be ridiculously broken with leech + bloodletting, but that's because leech is broken OP anyway)

Eidelon, you can only get the benefit of those talents once. And I consider both 'All Skilled Up' and 'Bigger and Better' to be wastes of a talent point.
Re: witchcraft/armor, I was saying "nobody would make THEIR ENTIRE TEAM witches in order to get that talent on everyone. I also agree that nobody would make their entire team Armor5 specialists to get Fashion Plate. But someone who wants to multiclass and wear heavy armor will probably want it regardless.

Last edited by dirigible; 29/07/14 08:56 PM.
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@eidolon:
Actic Armour is an improvement over the current situation, and Ice King is more likely to be useful than Demon. It's there for people who don't want things change too much, and it's not like Ice King is OP and causing problems.

Fashion Plate: You say yourself that the best Sarongs require 8 Int (functionally). 5 + 3 = 8. So is 3 attribute points saved by spending a talent actually not good enough for you? (Granted, the talent does not also grant access to level 1-4 spells, but them's the breaks.)

Adaption: By that logic, Weather the Storm is also crap. Except it's not crap, it's OP.

Head Start: But there isn't a talent which gives you +2 Speed. The talent which exists which can give you more Speed gives you +1 Speed. There's a good reason for that; +2 Speed would be too good. (+1 Speed probably isn't good enough, but Bigger and Better is flexible.)

But more to the point, this isn't about making a talent which everyone wants. I mean, the only concepts Head Start deals with are AP. Every single build uses AP and wants more AP. So if we made a generically good AP-granting talent, everyone would take it. It would be the Glass Cannon situation all over again. Thus, it's very important to make the talent situational enough where only a few specific builds are interested in it. I think there might be a few, while most builds leave it alone. And that's exactly what we would want most builds to do.

Leech: Again, improvement over the current situation. It would also be the only legitimate reason to get Witchcraft 5 ever; Invulnerability doesn't count.

Lone Wolf: The problem I saw was that, with less characters in the party, the few that remained would get statuses attempted on them more often, with more of a penalty (50% of your party gone rather than 25%) if the status succeeded. This meant Lone Wolf characters had a need to invest more of their 20 points in Bodybuilding and Willpower. How I figure it is: assume 6 points each in Willpower and Bodybuilding (which is quite a bit). This is 60% protection, right? So add another 2 points and you go to 20% chance of status success. 4/2, so in this case that translates to twice the protection. Since the drawback for getting statused is twice as bad, having twice the protection would be fair. It's also somewhat difficult to get 6 in each.

If I'm very wrong, and it's actually not hard to stack 8 Willpower, then let me understand how so I can consider toning back the bonus (perhaps to just +1 each).

Tenebrium: Well, you're the first person with that opinion I've run into.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 29/07/14 09:11 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fellgnome
Given these talents this is what both my characters would look like talent wise:

Lone Wolf
Macromanager
Savour the Moment
Far Out Man
Fire Adaptation
Zombie
Leech

Without any doubts.
So I'm looking at 5 Leadership, 5 Witchcraft, and some kind of investment in Pyrotechnic. 31-45 skill points right there, that's quite an investment.

Now let's consider what you'd be using currently... probably Glass Cannon instead of Macromanager, probably Picture of Health instead of Savour, probably Weather the Storm instead of Fire Adaptation. Total investment there is 5 Man-at-Arms plus whatever you have for spells.

At the very least, what I'm proposing would be a more balanced situation. There would still be some opportunities to do some powerful things, but in a game like this there should be. I find it kind of strange that you posted this as if it was some kind of criticism or disproof of my suggestions.

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A player should be able to choose many of your talents and the talents that are currently in the game at a lower skill level, because it increases the options to build different characters. Many talents should scale like the man-at-arms talents. For example:

Arctic Armour
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 1
(Hydrosophist X 10%) chance to freeze enemies who strike you with melee attacks.

Fashion Plate
Prerequisite: Armour Specialist 1
The attribute requirements of your equipment are reduced by (armour specialist X 0.5 (round up)).


Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Lone Wolf: The problem I saw was that, with less characters in the party, the few that remained would get statuses attempted on them more often, with more of a penalty (50% of your party gone rather than 25%) if the status succeeded. This meant Lone Wolf characters had a need to invest more of their 20 points in Bodybuilding and Willpower. How I figure it is: assume 6 points each in Willpower and Bodybuilding (which is quite a bit). This is 60% protection, right? So add another 2 points and you go to 20% chance of status success. 4/2, so in this case that translates to twice the protection. Since the drawback for getting statused is twice as bad, having twice the protection would be fair. It's also somewhat difficult to get 6 in each.


I think your suggestion would make Lone Wolf too powerful, because you already get an additional skill point that could be used to increase Willpower or Bodybuilding.

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Originally Posted by Wizard1200
A player should be able to choose many of your talents and the talents that are currently in the game at a lower skill level, because it increases the options to build different characters. Many talents should scale like the man-at-arms talents. For example:

Arctic Armour
Prerequisite: Hydrosophist 1
(Hydrosophist X 10%) chance to freeze enemies who strike you with melee attacks.

Fashion Plate
Prerequisite: Armour Specialist 1
The attribute requirements of your equipment are reduced by (armour specialist X 0.5 (round up)).

I agree with Fashion Plate, but not Arctic Armor. Sometimes a talent exists to reward specialization.

I would actually say that Fashion Plate should be
Fashion Plate
Prerequisite: Armour Specialist 1
The attribute requirements of your equipment are reduced by your rank in Armor Specialist.

Armor Specialist by itself isn't that good, imo, and it turns this into a quite useful talent, without being OP in my opinion. It essentially lets you wear most armor in the game, at Armor Specialist 5.

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The best Sarongs with such a high int requirement are level 19/20 items. What you want is an initial Int boost so that you can get access to some basic spells.

After the Patch Weather the Storm is a only something that you are going to take when you are planning on taking MaA to level 4-5 anyway. Back when it was 50% and I didn't know about multicoating I found it to be OP as hell, but now I know that you can get your resi vs all significantly > 100 without all that trouble.

Like you said. Everybody would take a good AP granting talent. By the same logic, nobody is interested in a talent that effectively reduces their AP.

An ability that is as broken as Leech doesn't need a nerf it needs to be fixed entirely.

As for the Saving throws: Willpower/Body Building are one of the most important talents for LW chars. When a status effect can take out half of your team, you better make sure that you do your best to protect yourself from them.
My 2x LW archer from the last playthrough:
Final stats with gear:
STR 5+3
DEX 15+7
INT 8+3
CON 14+4
SPD 12+5
PER 12+9

DMG 366-730
50% crit

28 AP/Turn
Tenebrium 5+2+2
Armour Specialist 2+1
Body Building 5+1+1
Willpower 5+1+1+1
Marksman 5
Scoundrel 2
Geomancer 2
Witchcraft 2
Leadership 4+1+1
Blacksmithin 3 (+2 with non-combat gear)
Crafting 2+1 (+2 with non-combat gear)
Lorecraft 4+1+1 (could just as well be 0, but I like to know the stats of my enemies)
Glass Cannon
Lone Wolf
Quickdraw
Bully
Stand your Ground (allows my mage to use Earthquake without the drawback)

Put 15 points in willpower for rank 5, get the trait (6), leadership (7), and at least 1 equipment (8).

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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Originally Posted by Fellgnome
Given these talents this is what both my characters would look like talent wise:

Lone Wolf
Macromanager
Savour the Moment
Far Out Man
Fire Adaptation
Zombie
Leech

Without any doubts.
So I'm looking at 5 Leadership, 5 Witchcraft, and some kind of investment in Pyrotechnic. 31-45 skill points right there, that's quite an investment.

Now let's consider what you'd be using currently... probably Glass Cannon instead of Macromanager, probably Picture of Health instead of Savour, probably Weather the Storm instead of Fire Adaptation. Total investment there is 5 Man-at-Arms plus whatever you have for spells.

At the very least, what I'm proposing would be a more balanced situation. There would still be some opportunities to do some powerful things, but in a game like this there should be. I find it kind of strange that you posted this as if it was some kind of criticism or disproof of my suggestions.


Macromanager could easily be dropped, skipping the 5 leadership. But w/Lone Wolf you get like 60 or so IIRC, so you'd still easily afford it. Obviously you'd have to take certain talents later than others.


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