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tx3000 Offline OP
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Sorry to all you archery fans out there but there is no way anyone can seriously try and say Archery is good. You can show me videos of an archer kicking ass and I'll still tell you Archery is a bad class.

Here is why:
1. LIMITED AMMUNITION
IMHO Any class that can run out of ammunition is bad it's like a mage running out of mana).

2. THE AMOUNT OF AMMUNITION THAT GETS MADE:
Base Arrows once made are infinite, and while it's understandable why there aren't infinite Special arrows, Only being able to craft 1 arrowhead/arrow out of 1 element is bullshit. The amount of special arrowheads/arrows you can craft/find/recover should be a result 1-2 depending on your luck status. Or at least have a talent/skill/blacksmithing level that allows you to create 2 special arrowheads when crafting one. That way at least archery is a little better.

3. SPECIAL ARROWS DAMAGE ARE GARBAGE
I'm sorry but there is no reason a normal arrow shot out of a normal bow to be doing 3-4 times more damage than a special arrow shot out of the same bow. Special arrows should always do more than normal arrows, and they just don't.

4. HITS AND MISSES
There is no reason why an Archer with a DEX of over 11 whether in a stance or not, only have a 49% or less chance to hit every time. That 49% goes even lower when encountering enemies that have saving bonuses. And this makes special arrows even worse than they already are.

5. DURABILITY ON BOWS/CROSSBOWS
Restricting how many arrows you have is one thing, but to make durability get used on those arrows is also bullshit. The only time durability should ever effect a bow/crossbow is when using Normal arrows

It's not about showing archery in action, the class has way, way too many restrictions that no other class has, and just cannot hold up the damage that needs to be done in battles.

Last edited by tx3000; 05/08/14 05:46 PM.
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1. Technically, the bow never runs out of ammo.

2. There are many avenues for crafting special ammo besides essences, which I believe is what you're eluding to.

3. If I'm not mistaken, hitting an enemy with a special arrow inflicts piercing damage and the special arrow effect. At least I know it is this way with some special arrows.

4. Perception helps with accuracy.

5. I would think a flaming arrow, or one dripping with poison, would do more to the bow itself than a normal arrow.


As for the archery "class" as a whole, I haven't played a dedicated archer so I can't comment. But I do know the enemy archers are a huge pain sometimes.

Edit: I would say, though, that if archer do lack DPTurn, they make up for it in utility and versatility.

Last edited by Armakoir; 05/08/14 05:54 PM.
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Hello,

I love the Archery class, and I believe you almost have to be one by default on at least one of the people in your party.

Arrows are unlimited (they never run out). They get special arrows they can use for special affects as needed (charm arrows can rock).

But the core reason why I made an archer:

I need one person in the party with a high perception. The only real class that gets anything out of a high perception is an archer. So a few points in Dex, and a 15 Perception (via gear and points), and I have a mini killing machine with amazing versatility.

I guess you can play without anyone in the group having a high Perception, or you could put Perception on another class (with no real benefits other than traps and hidden objects), but for me personally I like to have everything I do play two roles, and if I need high Perception, why not use it for something (like archery).

With my high Perception my to hit is almost always 100% (I like never miss). If you only have 50% to hit, you are not building your archer correctly. A high perception is way more important to an archer than a high Dex. A little more damage from a high dex means nothing if you never hit.

With that said, my Archer currently has a 15 Perception and a 13 Dex (and doing just fine).

Just my 2 cents smile

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Originally Posted by tx3000
3. SPECIAL ARROWS DAMAGE ARE GARBAGE
I'm sorry but there is no reason a normal arrow shot out of a normal bow to be doing 3-4 times more damage than a special arrow shot out of the same bow. Special arrows should always do more than normal arrows, and they just don't.


I see no issue with this, the arrow has an added benefit to it, so in my mind it obviously means that the arrow doesn't hit/do as much damage as an non special arrow would do.

Originally Posted by tx3000

4. HITS AND MISSES
There is no reason why an Archer with a DEX of over 11 whether in a stance or not, only have a 49% or less chance to hit every time. That 49% goes even lower when encountering enemies that have saving bonuses. And this makes special arrows even worse than they already are.


There is something wrong with your speccing then. I only ever get that low when they are quite far from me. If they are prone you always get 100%. Also you can take skills that can improve your accuracy at the cost of an extra Action Point (or Damage too)

Originally Posted by tx3000

5. DURABILITY ON BOWS/CROSSBOWS
Restricting how many arrows you have is one thing, but to make durability get used on those arrows is also bullshit. The only time durability should ever effect a bow/crossbow is when using Normal arrows


Makes sense to have durability used regardless of arrow type, you are still using the bow be it a normal arrow or a special explosive arrow.

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I would disagree, mostly. Archers suck a bit in the early game.

Once properly build up, they may save your butt. As an example, I am thinking of the Night Cap mushrooms in a certain area of Hunter's Edge. They are basically impervious to magic of any kind, but a good archer or melee fighter will do them in.

At level 16 and dexterity 11, my archer does reliably around 200 damage per shot (Heartseeker bow with elemental damage and Tenebrium damage), two shots per round. With "Barrage", it is around 350 damage. Nothing to sneeze at.

Like all other classes, an archer is not the answer to all combat situations - that is obvious.

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Everyone replying is totally missing the whole point archery is the only class that is far below playable standards when compared to all the other classes. Archery is the only class that can't take out enemies the same way any other class can.

While no class can deal with everything, every class can almost kill enemies in 2-3 hits and do significant damage when it does hit with just about any attack they use, but archery takes between 6-10 hits on any attack due to all the missed hits, the very low damage on Special arrows, and just the all around incapability being equal with all the other classes in the game.

People are also taking a high level archer and applying it to what I'm talking about which cannot be done. I'm talking about how no other class struggle in combat throughout the entire first map. 1/2 way through the first map is more than enough time for Archery to pick up from being bad and it doesn't. everything I posted above that happened not only happened into the second map of the game with every battle I ran into, but has happened with every single archer build I've used.

Classes that cannot get over the hump of being bad 1/2 through the first map are unusable because it's just a foreshadow of how it will always be. I have never seen an archer do well at all to the extent people are saying they get them to be.

NOW ON TO THE OVERALL ISSUES

1. Arrows are only unlimited FOR REGULAR ARROWS.

2. When it comes to making special arrows you should be getting 2 for 1 due to how expensive it gets, and how limited the amount of arrows you wind up having.

3. There is no way to be speced wrong for hitting when it comes to having 11 dex. and enemies they are never at 100% chance to hit whenevr I am able to hit them in an attack...I've never seen 100% ever. Besides If you have 11 dex a 49% chance to hit shouldn't even be showing up at all, if you have 11 dex and you can actually reach them with an attack, then I can see 80% but not under 49%.

4. You shouldn't have to get better aim from perception with 11 dex - That's an excuse

5. You shouldn't have to get items to improve your aim at 11 dex. at all that's an excuse.

6. Durability on a bow/crossbow should only go down IF AND ONLY IF you actually hit the target. You shouldn't be getting punished on top of already being punished.

6. Special arrows are anything other than a NORMAL ARROW. The game makes it out to be that SPECIAL arrows are an actual type called "SPECIAL" and do some specialized damage no other arrow type in the game does. And every type Special arrows should always do significantly more damage overall than a regular one and that is simply not the case.

I have never seen special arrows do anywhere near as much damage as regular arrow ever. I did a save reload test on the same enemy, and every time I hit the same enemy with a regular arrow it took out 1/2 - 3/4 of it's health, all elemental arrows only took up less than - 1/4 of their health and that was only due to some of the damage on the arrow itself, the elemental damage was practically useless because half the enemies in the game never get affected by the elemental damage from arrows. This was a direct result of the reload test I did.


Archery is a complete mess and doesn't work anywhere near enough to be usable in my experience with it. If those changes I said were made to archery then at least the class would be able to compete with all the other classes. But right now it's simply way too restrictive.

Last edited by tx3000; 05/08/14 07:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000
Everyone replying is totally missing the whole point:


Not really, we just don't see things the same way you do.

Yes normal arrows are unlimited, yes special arrows aren't. In some respects I'd rather normal arrows weren't unlimited but then you'd end up with the stupidity of the Infinity Engine games where you have a character with an inventory full of only norma arrows. I don't see an issue with getting only 1 or 2 special arrows when making them, maybe a max of 3-5 _might_ be better but I don't see it as an issue. (Especially as my bow does additional fire damage on its on)

Originally Posted by tx3000
3. There is no way to be speced wrong for hitting when it comes to having 11 dex. and enemies they are never at 100% chance to hit whenevr I am able to hit them in an attack...I've never seen 100% ever. Besides If you have 11 dex a 49% chance to hit shouldn't even be showing up at all, if you have 11 dex and you can actually reach them with an attack, then I can see 80% but not under 49%.


My character has 9 Dex and 7 perception, and I've had anything from 40% (monster like 25"+ away) up to like 98% to something much closer, and as I said you'll get 100% firing on a prone character

Originally Posted by tx3000

4. You shouldn't have to get better aim from perception with 11 dex - That's an excuse


Being able to see better, being able to perceive gaps in armor or weak spots? If your blind as fuck but are very dextrous the chances of you hitting something 100% of the time is going to be minimal.

Originally Posted by tx3000

6. Durability on a bow/crossbow should only go down IF AND ONLY IF you actually hit the target. You shouldn't be getting punished on top of already being punished.


Hit or miss you still fired the bow. Durability should still be affected. This isn't like swing a sword through the air and not hitting anything.

Last edited by tarasis; 05/08/14 07:10 PM.
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Your chance to hit with ranged weapons is determined by perception and not by dexterity.

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Originally Posted by Elwyn
Your chance to hit with ranged weapons is determined by perception and not by dexterity.

You're wrong, here is what dex says (Scerenshot right out of the game)

[Linked Image]

Also, the distance I've used an archer at didn't matter, because I've always had extremely poor hit chance even while right next to an enemy.

Nothing I've done makes an archer effective.

Last edited by tx3000; 05/08/14 07:32 PM.
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4. You shouldn't have to get better aim from perception with 11 dex - That's an excuse

Not an excuse, just how the code is written.

Which, btw, I really like. I like how accuracy was been split into two attributes. I wish str and dex worked together for melee weapons.

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6. Durability on a bow/crossbow should only go down IF AND ONLY IF you actually hit the target.

Why?

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And every type Special arrows should always do significantly more damage overall than a regular one...

Why?

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There is no reason why an Archer with a DEX of over 11 whether in a stance or not, only have a 49% or less chance to hit every time.

Why?

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My archer is the only character in my party who I keep toying with swapping out for something else. He's really not pulling his weight vs the other classes. It feels like you really need to be an archer *and* something else.

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Nothing I've done makes an archer effective.

What level is your archer and what level is the enemy? Also, which specific enemy is it? Lastly, what difficulty setting are you playing on?

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Originally Posted by Elwyn
Your chance to hit with ranged weapons is determined by perception and not by dexterity.


I think that this is unbalanced, because bows and crossbows are the only weapons that require two attributes. If the game would have no magic it would be balanced, because ranged weapons should have a disadvantage compared to melee weapons. But magic requires only one attribute and is even more powerful than ranged weapons. Perception should determine the chance to hit with ranged weapons and the dexterity requirement should be replaced by perception.

Last edited by Wizard1200; 05/08/14 07:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000
Originally Posted by Elwyn
Your chance to hit with ranged weapons is determined by perception and not by dexterity.

Then explain why my mage with a low perception can hit better than an archer with a higher perception.



Does your mage have a bow equipped? I think, he probably has a staff as a weapon, doesn't he? Staff is an intelligence-based weapon, so the chance to hit is determined by intelligence. So, if your mage has a very high intelligence, then his chance to hit with a staff is also very high.

The chance to hit with ranged weapons (which is the same as accuracy) is determined by perception.

http://divinity.wikia.com/wiki/Divinity:_Original_Sin_Attributes

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Originally Posted by Elwyn
Originally Posted by tx3000
Originally Posted by Elwyn
Your chance to hit with ranged weapons is determined by perception and not by dexterity.

Then explain why my mage with a low perception can hit better than an archer with a higher perception.



Does your mage have a bow equipped? I think, he probably has a staff as a weapon, doesn't he? Staff is an intelligence-based weapon, so the chance to hit is determined by intelligence. So, if your mage has a very high intelligence, then his chance to hit with a staff is also very high.

The chance to hit with ranged weapons (which is the same as accuracy) is determined by perception.

http://divinity.wikia.com/wiki/Divinity:_Original_Sin_Attributes

I think he means with spells, not staff attacks. Do ranged staff attacks have a to hit chance?

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I think that this is unbalanced, because bows and crossbows are the only weapons that require two attributes.

I wouldn't necessarily say its unbalanced, but it does strongly suggest making your archer into your scout/trapfinder in order to get your money's worth.

Last edited by Armakoir; 05/08/14 07:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000
Nothing I've done makes an archer effective.
Then your experience with archers is totally different from what everyone else responding to this thread has encountered.

Obviously we've all failed to grasp the essence of how badly archers were implemented in this game. We can all thank our lucky stars that you've come along to shine some light on the darkness of our sad lives.

And this is only the beginning: first crafting, and now archery! I can only wonder what aspect of this sorry excuse for a game will next become the focus of your keen insight, producing pearls of wisdom for you to graciously share with our benighted selves.

Why, I think I'll just walk away from this computer right now, and go try to do something worthwhile with myself. Thank you. Thank you tx3000, for reaching out to me in a time of troubles and setting me on the road to recovery.

I only hope that some of these other ingrates will also find a way to accept the truth you offer, and make of themselves something less pitiable and blind.


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Originally Posted by tx3000
People are also taking a high level archer and applying it to what I'm talking about which cannot be done. I'm talking about how no other class struggle in combat throughout the entire first map. 1/2 way through the first map is more than enough time for Archery to pick up from being bad and it doesn't. everything I posted above that happened not only happened into the second map of the game with every battle I ran into, but has happened with every single archer build I've used.


You've added this since earlier otherwise I would have included it in my reply. I am only in the first half of the map, my archer is a level 7 character with about 5 unused skill points, only 1 level in Expert Marksman.

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Originally Posted by Armakoir

I think he means with spells, not staff attacks. Do ranged staff attacks have a to hit chance?



Well, I do not think, there is something like ranged staff attacks hehe If he means spells, then the chance for the spell to be successfull is calculated as follows:

Each spell (afaik) has a priori a 100% chance to work. Then you get a bonus from your intelligence value - so it is possible to have a chance of say 135%. And then, the chance is reduced by the willpower of the opponent.

So, it is:

100% + x * Intelligence - y * Willpower.

Last edited by Elwyn; 05/08/14 07:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by PeteNewell
Obviously we've all failed to grasp the essence of how badly archers were implemented in this game. We can all thank our lucky stars that you've come along to shine some light on the darkness of our sad lives.


Actually tx3000 is right, because:

A bow has roughly the damage of a one handed weapon, but requires one additional AP and two attributes.

A crossbow has roughly the damage of a two handed weapon, but requires one additional AP and two attributes.

Magic deals ranged damage and requires only one attribute.

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Everyone posting replies clearly has absolutely no idea how to read the stats in this game stats because they're saying accuracy is if you can hit the target...Are you kidding me...

DEXTERITY:

[Linked Image]

PERCEPTION:

[Linked Image]

Perception has absolutely nothing to do with CHANCE TO HIT.


Chance to hit is CAN YOU EVEN HIT THE TARGET, so It doesn't matter if you have a 1000% accuracy, if you have a 0% CHANCE TO HIT, you won't ever hit the target..EVER.

Accuracy is how MUCH OF THE TARGET GETS HIT IF YOU DO HIT THE TARGET.

If you have an archer with an 11 dex and it's in range to be able to hit the target, then it's chance to hit should never go below 80% simply because your dex is so high.

So people really need to stop with the excuses already of what am I trying to hit or I should use another character with an archer because that's not relevant to this. Every class you go into battle has some struggles, but can do significant damage on it's own, but the archer cannot do that. I should be able to take an archer and damage enemies to the same extent I do with any other class

Last edited by tx3000; 05/08/14 07:52 PM.
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