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tx3000 Offline OP
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I'm so sick and tired of joining people or having people join me with A Lone Wolf/Glass Cannon build. It's a stupid overpowered combo that completely wrecks the game. I like to play and enjoy battles and even die (Yes dying shows you what you need to work on) But this Lone Wolf Glass Cannon build is seriously for lazy brain dead people who don't want to take the time to play.

So far every single person I encounter have nothing but the same two talents and it's so damn annoying and disgusting.

This game is turning into Diablo 2 where no one can think for themselves when it comes to builds and no one uses anything else until it gets to the point if you do anything else, you're now a noob and people say learn to play. What a bunch of childish douche bags.

There are so many other things to experiment with and instead what to people do, they all run to the same Lone Wolf/Glass Cannon, as if nothing else works or exists.

I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.

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You are aware that you have less AP with lonewolf+glass cannon than 2 individual characters would have combined. And easy and normal less HP as well.

Besides that people can not join your game with their builds and no one wants to join yours anyway :p

Lastly your comment about haste is plain and simply ignorant. +4 AP is different from getting +8 AP from haste, right? Glass Cannon will double the AP from haste too. ;-)

Last edited by Apocalypse; 06/08/14 10:51 PM.
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I totally agree. I refuse to use glass cannon any more and just modded my haste to give an extra 2 recovery/max AP per level (and, of course, a persistent effect to avoid having to cast it every few turns).

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Originally Posted by Apocalypse
You are aware that you have less AP with lonewolf+glass cannon than 2 individual characters would have combined. And easy and normal less HP as well.

And you do realize this topic isn't about what you're opinion is.

Originally Posted by Apocalypse
Besides that people can not join your game with their builds and no one wants to join yours anyway :p

NO DUH I never said with their characters did I..Quit assuming ...Talk about dense.

Originally Posted by Apocalypse
Lastly your comment about haste is plain and simply ignorant. +4 AP is different from getting +8 AP from haste, right? Glass Cannon will double the AP from haste too. ;-)

I'm very well informed on how GC works thanks I don't need a lecture. You're explanation about how GC works is one of the main reasons I cannot stand that Talent along with the people who use it.

I said MY character with Haste does exactly what Glass Cannon Does. and you said nope and started with the AP nonsense difference. And that proves my point about Glass Cannon being for mindless brain dead players who don't know how to put together an actual class that works.

Sorry but I managed to figured out a way to make my character have the equivalent of GC in both AP and Damage without it.

Glass Cannon is only effective in battles and when you look at it as a whole GC with haste is useless since the max AP any character can have is 20 and almost no one has that until near the end of the game if they even wind up having that at all. The fact is most characters have a maximum of 12-14 AP for most of the game, So Haste Plus the base will always max out or just about max out a characters AP every turn anyway.

So you saying it CG doubles from haste may be a fact but it's stupid for all the reasons I just posted. It literally doesn't do anything except cancel out the haste...And as far as GC goes... Why would anyone bother to take a loss on HP for absolutely no reason.

The point to this topic was to explain how the Lone Wolf Glass Cannon Wrecks the game and the people that use it don't take the time to play so they don't understand it, (Which you proved my point on.) but furthermore to say I don't want to tag along with people who don't want to actually play the game.

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Originally Posted by tx3000
Glass Cannon is only effective in battles and when you look at it as a whole GC with haste is useless since the max AP any character can have is 20 and almost no one has that until near the end of the game if they even wind up having that at all. The fact is most characters have a maximum of 12-14 AP for most of the game, So Haste Plus the base will always max out or just about max out a characters AP every turn anyway.


You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4 (8 if GC) and recovery AP by 3 (6 if GC). Thus, haste will never cause you to max out AP, with or without GC, unless you were maxing out AP per turn without haste anyway, since the bonus recovery AP is less than the bonus max AP.

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Originally Posted by eskuche
You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4 (8 if GC) and recovery AP by 3 (6 if GC). (You're correct regarding Recovery AP being +6 under Haste.) Thus, haste will never cause you to max out AP, with or without GC, unless you were maxing out AP per turn without haste anyway, since the bonus recovery AP is less than the bonus max AP.
You are wrong. Haste increases max AP by 4... and still by 4, even if GC. So it is possible to "waste" AP with Haste, because 6 is more than 4. However, as long as your max AP is at least 2 more than your recovery AP, this is avoidable. You generally want a larger buffer than that, however, so that you can save 1 or 2 AP from previous turns without wasting them; having a max equal to recovery +3 or recovery +4 is usually best.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 12:22 AM.
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Oops, you are right. I recant! I guess this means if you're using haste with GC you should have CON = 3 + SPD or something like that.

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Originally Posted by eskuche
Oops, you are right. I recant! I guess this means if you're using haste with GC you should have CON = 3 + SPD or something like that.
At least Speed +2. With GC, I normally pump Con until Con=Speed+4, then pump speed until Speed=Con-2, then pump Con again.

But we digress. The thread's original topic is, essentially, complaining about partying with people who use Lone Wolf and/or Glass Cannon. In my opinion, Lone Wolf isn't overpowered at all, but Glass Cannon definitely is, and I could definitely see how co-op with someone using GC, when you don't, could make you very aware of that imbalance, as they get these really long turns doing everything under the sun, while your non-overpowered character feels meek in comparison. Not to mention the whole "same partner every time" feeling.

So yeah, Glass Cannon needs to be beaten with a nerf bat. Obviously. Hopefully that would improve build diversity to the metagame and fix OP's problem.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 12:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
So yeah, Glass Cannon needs fixing. Obviously. Hopefully that would fix OP's problem.


I just want to clear up something on my end. I don't have a problem with the skill itself and people can use whatever they want. Lone wolf itself is fine because it doesn't break the game. It's glass cannon itself or the combination of the two and the people using them, that is the issue.

Now don't get me wrong, people can play however they want. What I have a problem with, is how it's literally become the only skill people I encounter ever use, and then the people that use it say it's the only way to play the game and if you don't use it, you suck, or learn to play, or some other stupid thing like that. It's basically turned people into idiots and allowed them to turn a really interesting game into a point and click unstoppable piece of garbage,

If I don't want to be in someones game or have them in my game I can easily just exit the game, it's the fact that when I go to play a game I want to actually PLAY the game, and not cheese my way through with a mindless plow through and pretty much never find anyone to actually enjoy the game with in coop.

To solve the Glass Cannon problem it just shouldn't be available in coop at all. it would force the people using it to either really learn how to play or it would stop them from going online if that's the only way they think the game is playable, and then I wouldn't have to keep running into them.

I hope people can understand where I'm coming from.

Last edited by tx3000; 07/08/14 01:04 AM.
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How is someone "joining with a glass cannon/lone wolf build"? They don't get to bring characters from elsewhere into your save.

The only way for it to happen is to play for several levels with them in your game, and if you're letting random people join your game and play for several levels without any kind of do/don't discussion, turning to a specific build is the least of the things they could be doing to that save.

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Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
How is someone "joining with a glass cannon/lone wolf build"? They don't get to bring characters from elsewhere into your save.

Sorry...

I should have clarified that whether I join them or they join me, I only play from the character creation screen.

So I ask people right out what they're going to pick so we can make builds to support each other.

Last edited by tx3000; 07/08/14 01:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000
Now don't get me wrong, people can play however they want. What I have a problem with, is how it's literally become the only skill people I encounter ever use, and then the people that use it say it's the only way to play the game and if you don't use it, you suck, or learn to play, or some other stupid thing like that. It's basically turned people into idiots and allowed them to turn a really interesting game into a point and click unstoppable piece of garbage,
Well, if the only thing which mattered in the game was being as powerful as possible -- don't forget the "if" -- then not taking Glass Cannon would indeed be a flat-out mistake. If you combine that with being a rude misanthrope, you get "you suck, learn to play."

Of course, in any proper RPG, playing your role is also important, not just gaming the system as hard as you can, so them telling you such things reveals something of their mindset (beyond the obvious rudeness). I understand you don't think Glass Cannon is all that powerful, but... it really is all that powerful, which is why so, so many people use it. Making it less powerful would encourage diversity, because the concepts of playing your role and trying to be as powerful as possible shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 01:12 AM.
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The huge hit to Vitality is a major downside to Glass Cannon that I feel does compensate for the AP boost it gives. A character with it ends up having to go far more heavily into Constitution than would otherwise be necessary at the expense of simply having a higher Speed. Higher Speed improves a lot of other things - including initiative and first-turn APs, which will often make or break the party in a serious battle.

Yes, you can use Lone Wolf to partly offset the loss, but it must be understood that Lone Wolf is an overall power decrease for the party. Two characters are stronger than a slightly-better single one, especially once CC becomes commonplace. In multiplayer it does have some convenience value since it reduces the amount of waiting and management a person has to do, and people might be drawn to take it for that reason, but it still comes at the expense of overall power.

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This is the nature of grouping with randoms in almost any online game. I don't see a problem with it either, when playing with others I use whatever is optimal so as not to slow things down. And LW in particular allows for a more smooth co-op experience since there're less characters taking separate turns.

When playing with someone I know personally I might mess around more. Although I really don't find many builds with less powerful talent choices that much more interesting to play in D:OS. I still play LW/GC with my brother even though we could be using anything.


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Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
I understand you don't think Glass Cannon is all that powerful, but...

UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.

Last edited by tx3000; 07/08/14 01:43 AM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000
I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.


Originally Posted by tx3000
UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.


Edit: tags

Last edited by eskuche; 07/08/14 01:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by eskuche
Originally Posted by tx3000
I personally think Glass Cannon Sucks, I get the same exact result from Casting haste without the health loss.


Originally Posted by tx3000
UMM I never said that in any way shape or form so I don't know where you got that from. I actually said the exact opposite.

If you go back and read through everything I said, you will see I said it breaks the game BECAUSE IT IS TOO POWERFUL and it's why I refuse to coop with people that have it/going to use it.


Edit: tags


How in the world do people seriously become so stupid to the point they cannot even decipher a sentence or what was said and just take it out of context and then not even put the context it's being used in in the quote?

Two things:

1. Personally saying something sucks doesn't make it actually suck. I personally think Sports suck, that doesn't mean they actually do.

2. The context I used Glass Cannon Sucks in was in 2 ways
1. It's so powerful it sucks because it destroys the game. (It sucks because they got a better player than us)
2. The Health loss in Glass Cannon sucks...because it does.

You just didn't bother to take the time to understanding the context I was using, which is why you think what i said is incorrect. But as you can see I'm perfectly fine in what i was saying, it was you that was having the problem

And don't try and play victim with how I'm talking to you in this reply because you quoted me and took what I said out of context to try and show I contradicted myself..So you did it to be an ass

Next time you want to try and point out what you think is stupid, I suggest that asking what I meant first, instead of quoting me out of context and posting things that I'm just going to make you look stupid on.

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Originally Posted by NeutroniumDragon
The huge hit to Vitality is a major downside to Glass Cannon that I feel does compensate for the AP boost it gives.
Not even close. A character with 5 Speed and Glass Cannon has as much recovery AP as a character with 17 Speed. 7 Speed + GC is roughly equivalent to 21 Speed. Those are stupidly high numbers, and all GC asks in return is that you throw some points in Constitution instead. Considering the massive savings in Speed, that's no problem. If you take your previous Speed investment, toss it in Constitution instead, and take GC, you will have a stronger character every single time.

Also, Leadership provides crazy bonuses to Initiative, which greatly offsets any need to pump it further with stats. This is actually something which should be looked into, because Leadership makes other Initiative boosts mostly meaningless.

GC is overpowered. And not a little, it's more powerful than any other talent by a country mile. It is game-warping.

When it comes to Lone Wolf, I feel your appraisal is fairly accurate.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 02:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by tx3000

Next time you want to try and point out what you think is stupid, I suggest that asking what I meant first, instead of quoting me out of context and posting things that I'm just going to make you look stupid on.


Sorry, I am not smart enough to follow your argument.

Originally Posted by ScrotieMcB
Not even close. A character with 5 Speed and Glass Cannon has as much recovery AP as a character with 17 Speed. 7 Speed + GC is roughly equivalent to 21 Speed. Those are stupidly high numbers, and all GC asks in return is that you throw some points in Constitution instead. Considering the massive savings in Speed, that's no problem. If you take your previous Speed investment, toss it in Constitution instead, and take GC, you will have a stronger character every single time.


Not sure, but I think you would need to crunch the numbers on this one. I'm not saying that GC isn't overpowered, but let's think about the 5 SPD + GC vs. 17 SPD scenario (assuming your calculations that these are equivalent is correct), and just the recovery AP and HP tradeoff.

On hard mode (ignoring LW for now), GC would give you 25% base HP (-25% from hard, -50% from GC). To re-coup the HP effects, you would need to triple your base vitality through constitution boosts. From our lovely discussion on constitution and vitality (assuming you have 7 CON given 5 SPD), you would need approximately 10 more points into constitution to get back at your starting HP. Throw in the 2 attribute points you can trade in for not taking GC, this is almost equal in attribute points, HP, and recovery AP. The difference (and overpoweredness, arguably) lies in max AP, which you have in the GC + constitution build but not in the flat 17 SPD build. This is also discounting, again, other benefits of speed (movement, starting AP) and additive effects, such as picture of health, lone wolf, etc.

Another point is that HP isn't even all necessary if you shield, position, and CC appropriately. Not sure what I'm trying to conclude here, but just throwing out a bunch of data.

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To restore lost Vitality under GC (versus 5 Con without GC, Hard difficulty, 415 Vitality at level 20) you can either:
1. Get about 9 more Constitution (less than you describe, 440 Vitality)
2. Get Man-at-Arms 2, grab Picture of Health, get 6 more Con (446 Vitality)
3. Get Man-at-Arms 3, grab Picture of Health, get 5 more Con (453 Vitality)
4. Get Man-at-Arms 4, grab Picture of Health, get 4 more Con (450 Vitality)
5. Get Man-at-Arms 5, grab Picture of Health, get 3 more Con, can also grab Weather the Storm if you want (439 Vitality)

Cost in Talent Points according to Moloch:
1. 4.5 (9 attribute)
2. 4.3 (6 attribute, 3 ability, 1 talent)
3. 4.1 (5 attribute, 6 ability, 1 talent)
4. 4.0 (4 attribute, 10 ability, 1 talent)
5. 4.0 (3 attribute, 15 ability, 1 talent)

Now versus 7 Con without GC, Hard difficulty, 572 Vitality at level 20:
1. Get about 10 more Constitution (587 Vitality)
2. Get Man-at-Arms 2, grab Picture of Health, get 7 more Con (615 Vitality)
3. Get Man-at-Arms 3, grab Picture of Health, get 5 more Con (570 Vitality, close enough)
4. Get Man-at-Arms 4, grab Picture of Health, get 4 more Con (573 Vitality)
5. Get Man-at-Arms 5, grab Picture of Health, get 3 more Con, can also grab Weather the Storm if you want (567 Vitality, close enough)

Cost in Talent Points according to Moloch:
1. 5.0 (10 attribute)
2. 4.8 (7 attribute, 3 ability, 1 talent)
3. 4.1 (5 attribute, 6 ability, 1 talent)
4. 4.0 (4 attribute, 10 ability, 1 talent)
5. 4.0 (3 attribute, 15 ability, 1 talent)

In other words: GC for everybody = Picture of Health for everybody. And probably Weather the Storm for everybody too.

Last edited by ScrotieMcB; 07/08/14 03:39 AM.
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