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Sabi #542492 12/08/14 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sabi

All of this while he/she will make rest of possible companions falling back and usuable later, due to missed experience points and while being completely useless for whole time by lacking levels for equipment or skills. Brilliant idea indeed.


I would quote everything he said but for the sake of space this is the bulk of it.

In any RPG you miss out if you let them die, but you can take those low levels and farm respawning mobs to catch them up. I have no problem leveling mercs if it were actually an option. The problem is that it's NOT in this game. If you EVER stop using Jahan or Madora, you will always be higher level than your mercs unless you higher new crappy ones.

Also the 4 player aspect. People drop in to my games all the time to play for a bit. It used to be they could pick a level 1 and level it they way they want, we could go buy some skills and gear and play. Someone might play with me Monday and Wed while someone else on Tues and Thurs. All we had to do was leave them in the hall until next time and they wouldn't fall behind. Now we can't. It was perfect for social casual gamers.

Until this is fixed back, and/or a mod is made to change it back, and/or mercs are allowed to respec at the demon (still forcing you to use Jahan and Madora btw, >.<) this game has lost all fun value.

Currently I log in to the forums to see if this is fixed, then log in to a different game and D:OS is put on hold.

Last edited by Nasmodok; 12/08/14 02:31 PM.
Nasmodok #542499 12/08/14 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nasmodok
[quote=Sabi]
Currently I log in to the forums to see if this is fixed, then log in to a different game and D:OS is put on hold.


Same. I don't plan on playing this game again until this is resolved.

It's a single player game for crying out loud. Just let people play the way they want. There is no good reason for not letting the henchmen autolevel other than the Devs just want to be stubborn about it.

The only other option is to research modding the game so it works correctly again. I consider how it is after patch 107 to be a SERIOUS bug.

Lar_q #542512 12/08/14 04:16 PM
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The patch seems to have broken highlighting, at least on the Mac Steam version of the game. I really liked that as I am old and it made it *much* easier for me to verify targets and such.

I'm also disappointed with the henchmen change, it really constrains how you can build a team as the pre-built henchmen have builds that range from merely sub-optimal to downright terrible. I had to start a new game and stick with Madora and Jahan to work around this. Hopefully this gets fixed or someone makes a working mod that replaces the henchmen templates to something more palatable. I'm still amazed Larian did such a nice job making a variety of henchmen, giving them custom looks and even back stories, and then made seemingly random builds for them all.

Lar_q #542605 12/08/14 08:22 PM
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I started a game to see how little XP I could get before being able to hire companions in the Hall of Heroes. I followed these steps to achieve this:

  • Fight the 3 undead encountered before the tutorial cave, 350XP
  • Skip the tutorial cave and head for the bridge.
  • Pass the two drunken guards at the bridge, 900XP.
  • Complete the quest Orc Fight on the Beach, 670XP.
  • Talk to Arhu at the gate, 1000XP.
  • Make sure you do not start the quest Fire! Fire! Fire! by walking close to the wall.
  • Discover the Cyseal Harbor portal, 90XP.
  • Enter Thelyron's House of Healing using the back entrance (where the sheep are) to avoid starting the quest The Fish Thief.
  • Open the door to the two sick men and do the quest The Apprentice and the Stone, 390XP
  • Look into the telescope and go to the Homestead Hall.
  • Talk to the Weaver of Time and then to ZikZax to get the teleporter pyramid.
  • Teleport to Cyseal Harbor.
  • Walk to the Legion Headquarters. Make sure you avoid the marketplace.
  • Talk to Aureus to be allowed inside the crime scene, 900XP.
  • Walk to the King Crab Inn without getting too close to the North Gate Portal or the marketplace.
  • When Mendius starts to talk to you, just select 'I'll take my leave' and enter the inn.
  • Talk to the guard outside and get him to open the door
  • Enter the crime scene, 1080XP
  • Teleport to the End of Time
  • Talk to John Smythe and hire your companions

At this point you only have 5380 XP and are level 2. Hiring a level 1 companion now will not hinder your progress at all. Remember that when the game ends you will probably have reached at least level 20. When you reach level 21 you have 3080000 XP. Why all this fuss about companions being useless? If you are going to stick with two companions the entire game, the current system is not a restriction at all in my opinion. If, however, you would like to create a lot of companions and level them all up, then you cannot get them as high as your two heroes. But why should the game allow that? It is almost like cheating if you have 20 companions to choose from and can pick the two most suited for each and every task in the game.

Last edited by ivra; 12/08/14 08:22 PM.
ivra #542642 12/08/14 11:48 PM
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Quote
Why all this fuss about companions being useless?


how about instead of dismissing people's concerns without any thought, you actually try reading them instead.

in fact, you could have even read the post directly above yours on the the subject.


Lar_q #542871 13/08/14 08:02 AM
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I am not dismissing their thoughts. I am just not getting why it is so hard to adjust to the rules of the game. Also, among all those posts against the current solution I have read a lot of yelling and whining. That does not help at all. I am going to comment on two of the arguments against the current system.

Originally Posted by Sabi
When henchmen used to level up to fit your team, it was allowing players to play as they see fit - try different character or classes, experiment with different builds or just to make separate characters for trading, lockpicking or crafting. Or just to get rid of companions for a moment and try something different. Not to mention that those pre-made henchmen usually have terribly distributed statistics and abilities (mage with str bonuses and 3 con?) and that it kills the freedom of designing your own team - one of most important aspects of team-based RPGs.

Valid argument. However, why do you assume that you can design you companions exactly like you want too? You hire your companions after all. You have to select from what is available and do the best out of it. The game allows you to design your two heroes from ground up. It also allows you to select up to two companions to follow you. Why must the game use the same rules for both of these situations? Why is it so hard to accept that your followers cannot be designed exactly to your liking?

Originally Posted by Nasmodok
Also the 4 player aspect. People drop in to my games all the time to play for a bit. It used to be they could pick a level 1 and level it they way they want, we could go buy some skills and gear and play. Someone might play with me Monday and Wed while someone else on Tues and Thurs. All we had to do was leave them in the hall until next time and they wouldn't fall behind. Now we can't. It was perfect for social casual gamers.

Valid point. That option is not available in the current version.


As I see it there are pros and cons for both companion systems. Two of the pros of the old systems are quoted above. The problem with that old system is that it invalidates all the level 2-20 companions. Why buy an expensive one, when you can buy a level 1 and get it auto-level to your level. With the old system, the aspect of doing the best of what you are offered is totally removed.

I guess what surprises me is all those strong feeling of how it should be, without being able to see that there are pros and cons for each solution. Remember that if you get it the way you like it to be, somebody else will be disappointed. There is almost never a right answer that makes everybody happy.

Lar_q #542876 13/08/14 08:10 AM
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Well thank you for addressing it that time. I was thinking you didn't even read them either.

And I see your point, and I can see their reasoning.

But it still doesn't work because if you hire someone at the appropriate level, and then it doesn't work out, your other two are now lower level than you.

I understand the idea of hiring people and that when you hire people they may not be the way you want.. but the point of this game is to be able to play and to have the ability to play with FOUR people. And people are not so keen on start at level 16 with the abilities that the mercs get.

And how could you even expect someone to play from start to finish together every time. We all don't get to marry the person we game with. 9 outta 10 times we will not be able to play with that person all the time, and I leave their characters in the Hall when gone.

The selling point of the game is a social one, playing with friends multiplayer. You've got the obvious character creation (hopefully 4player version of it soon). You've got the paper scissors rock thing to allow everyone's input. It's a social game. Therefor it either needs to autolevel so we can play together, or mobs need to respawn. Or it's not worth playing atm. Unfortunately.

I was having a blast with this game, and I will continue to watch for a change or mod.

Lar_q #542996 13/08/14 12:26 PM
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How about this:

New room in the End of Time: Training Room. You can fight random creatures in there, in random environments. If a character or henchmen dies, it is automatically revived at the end of the fight.
This would allow to:
- xp with your henchmen, BUT only the henchmen would get xp in there, up to your lowest level character as a limit. That way you cannot farm xp and break game balance. It allows you to try out and use a whole bunch of different henchmen. Also, nothing would drop from mob there.
This would also allow to:
- train (as a player) and try stuff out without save-scumming.
- add replayability within a run.

How about that?

Last edited by Tsort; 13/08/14 12:27 PM.
Tsort #543037 13/08/14 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ivra
Why all this fuss about companions being useless?

Companions aren't useless (though 2xLW is arguably stronger). But henchmen were broken before and are still broken in many ways (e.g. Cain is clearly overpowered with 5MA at level 1). Henchmen needed a lot of thinking and fixing. Instead of almost all of them are plain useless now.

Originally Posted by Tsort
How about this:

New room in the End of Time: Training Room.

+1

We'll "earn" XP for our henchmen, no problem. But at least give us means to do so. Right now it's just another broken piece in the puzzle.

Sabi #543103 13/08/14 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sabi
All those ";)" and overuse of "..." - please stop.


No...;) They are called "emoticons" and "expressive punctuation" ( "ep" is commonly used in novels) and I use them at times to inject a bit of levity into conversations which have lost their sense of humor because people are taking the topics involved far too seriously.

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First of all - check how much experience points you ACTUALLY need to get from 1 to 10.


As I said, you need far less going 1 to 2 than going from 10 to 11. It's a fact, no kidding. Check it out.

Quote
Do you have some kind of fetish for "difficulty", which is just being "bad design" and not actual obstacles?


The design is fine...Lol...;) You want a lvl 10 Merc? Buy one. You want a lvl 1 Merc you level up to Lvl10 "your way," buy one and level him up through game play. What's the problem?

Quote
In other words, when there existed possibility to design your own team by yourself - option desired by many players, expressed over various internet boards and in form of mods, like "4 player creation" or "Fourplay" - and devs for some reason disabled it, calling it "bug" for no reason, you eat it up for no reason as well and right away call it good decision? Perfect.


The opportunity to "design your own team" has always been there, right from the start--you design the first two party members. All members you either pick up in your travels after that, or that you buy as Mercs after that, are optional. You *can* do what you want like this: start a new game, then get to the Hall of Heroes as fast as you can, buy a couple of Lvl1 or Lvl2 Mercs that appeal to you, and then take them with you and level them up.

But again, hitting a high-level with your *created characters*--just say lvl 10--then going to HoH and buying a Lvl 1 Merc who them automatically levels to up to 10, no extra money or XP earned in game play, is a pretty stupid darn way of doing that. If that was Larian's intent, then they'd simply have made the game to *start* by creating four characters instead of two, and there you go. Since Larian has fixed what it calls an XP bug relative to purchased Mercs in the HoH, then I think we pretty much have to accept that's the way Larian intends the game to be played.

This is getting tedious: there are ways (as I pointed out...three times?) to do exactly what you want to do in the HoH--but you want the game to continue broken as it was. But they've fixed the bug and said so. Accept it and move on. You'll have to grind a little more to take a lvl1 HoH Merc and turn him into the lvl 10 character of your choice--but if Larian had intended the game to start with *four* 100% player-created characters then that's the way Larian would have made the game, seems to me. You aren't arguing with me--you are arguing with Larian. Good luck there...;)

I'll tell you though...I'm not emotionally invested in this issue--it's simply a part of the rules of the game AFAIAC. If Larian wants to reintroduce the auto-level of the low-level Mercs we can buy in the HoH, well, I'll play it that way, too. I'm just pointing out that I can see why they did what they did with the HoH Merc XP, and that it makes a lot of sense to me.





I'm never wrong about anything, and so if you see an error in any of my posts you will know immediately that I did not write it...;)
Tsort #543118 14/08/14 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsort
How about this:

New room in the End of Time: Training Room. You can fight random creatures in there, in random environments. If a character or henchmen dies, it is automatically revived at the end of the fight.
This would allow to:
- xp with your henchmen, BUT only the henchmen would get xp in there, up to your lowest level character as a limit. That way you cannot farm xp and break game balance. It allows you to try out and use a whole bunch of different henchmen. Also, nothing would drop from mob there.
This would also allow to:
- train (as a player) and try stuff out without save-scumming.
- add replayability within a run.

How about that?


I fully support this idea (from them or a mod). If there's a portal not being used that'd be a great spot for a mod portal.

Lar_q #543135 14/08/14 01:27 AM
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I kinda agree with ivra and Waltc on the henchmen issue, they explained what i thought better than I had done =D.

Any news on what they are working on for a new patch?

Lar_q #543525 14/08/14 10:31 AM
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I wondered myself why henchmen were offered at different levels if they anyway automatically level up to your main chars. Not auto-leveling them makes much more sense.

Lar_q #544424 16/08/14 01:48 PM
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Dear developers,

thank you so far for such a great game! Over the last months, we had so much fun (with fluids :P) with your game, restarted with some new constellations and still didnt proceed through the whole game. Atm. we are at 250-300 hrs of gameplay with fun in every minute. There is so much love in your game, you let us feel your heartbleed smile

After getting fixed some bugs, there is still one thing occuring.

We cant reproduce it if we want to, but there is still a bug after reloading a savegame while playing coop. After reloading sometimes my joined teammates duo is just in trousers, no weapons, no armor in his view. The problem is, that all stats are down. In my view, his duo wears their clothes with all equipment. So he has to leave the game and rejoin it.

Sometimes I load a savegame, and everything is ok. But it happens very often (lets say 60%), that he has to rejoin the game after the host was loading a savegame to get his duo in armor and weapons.

It would be very nice, if you get this issue fixed smile

Go on with your (nearly perfect) work, weエre looking forward on addons, delivered by larian!

Thank you,


Cor

Last edited by Corlexys; 16/08/14 01:49 PM.
Corlexys #544439 16/08/14 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Corlexys
After reloading sometimes my joined teammates duo is just in trousers, no weapons, no armor in his view. The problem is, that all stats are down. In my view, his duo wears their clothes with all equipment. So he has to leave the game and rejoin it.


I had this as well recently. I joined the game of a friend (he started it in singleplayer). He retained controll of Scarlett and handed Roderick over to me.
His Scarlett fought in underwear, my Rodericks stats were all set to 5 and abilities to 0, with only the bonuses from equipment.
Leaving the game and re-joining fixed it.

Last edited by El Zoido; 16/08/14 02:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by LightningLockey
Originally Posted by eidolon
Sure, game breaking bugs are a higher priority, but a lot of gamers were hoping to see some balancing changes as well.
Guess I just have to delay my next playthrough for a bit.


You got that right. This game has turned into a complete waste of time on "Normal" difficulty and even on Easy some of the battles are hard to get threw. After Cyseal, the game balancing just went to shit. My disappointment is rather huge.

Even on easy, I need to summon a few monsters to surround a target so that my chance of melee or ranged hit is 80% or better. This is a game where unless your nothing but all mages, it is just too difficult. Need to know your terrain and predict what the enemy will do to counter it. Not to mention all the wasted turns with just re-healing and buffing.


What really?? I find this game wayy to easy. I have it on hard and wish there was a harder difficulty.
Leech is OP and I only have it on my warrior.

My setup is
Rogue
Warrior
Hybrid Water/Air DPS+Heals
Hybrid Witch/Pyro.. Mainly a buffer/debuffer

With rogue you can literally cc 3 or 4 mobs in 1 turn.
Summons from my 2 mages tank a few mobs (but rarely do I bother summoning. and if I do I rarely do both at same time unless 5+ mobs)

I don't use much of the pyro abilties frmo my one mage
My water mage can basically keep 1 or 2 mobs completely frozen.

There is just wayy too much cc in this game making it too easy. Also, CC lasts too long. I think CC should only last 1-2 turns not 2-3
Then just keep haste on warrior and rogue, as well as 50% dmg buff and go to town.

Anyways, love the game.. only thin that would immensely improve this game is making it so in coop everyone can see dialog without having to read the chat window.


Last edited by harmar; 18/08/14 09:02 PM.
harmar #545487 18/08/14 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by harmar
What really?? I find this game wayy to easy. I have it on hard and wish there was a harder difficulty.
Leech is OP and I only have it on my warrior.

Very true. To be honest after level 5 things are easy even without Leech. You get so many summon spells and crowd control options. Knockdown, stun, freeze, blind, charm. Blind almost never fails if your mages have decent INT. So I don't even bother with soft CC like slow or mute. And summons. Spend one measly point in Geo on every character and you can start each fight with 4x spiders. A meat shield multiplied by 4 is a meat wall - practically impenetrable because you can always summon another spider. Or skeleton. Or elemental.

Last edited by prodigydancer; 18/08/14 09:44 PM.
Lar_q #545621 19/08/14 08:46 AM
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Hello Larian,

quite another "bug" in your masterpeace.

If you have to "stone-paper-scissors", you change to another partymember. Then, switch back to the one with stone paper scissors. After that, you have to end the dialogue and you automatically won the stone paper scissors.

I hope itエs not a feature smile
If possible, please fix that; god-modes are annoying smile I know, I dont have to use it, but if I have to check something in another members inventory, i have to switch the chars...

Regards,


Cor

Lar_q #545676 19/08/14 11:59 AM
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hi,

will there be another big patch in August with new companions?

Hope the next patch will include some balancing wink


Killing shouldn't be the solution for everything!!!
Corlexys #545691 19/08/14 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Corlexys
If you have to "stone-paper-scissors", you change to another partymember. Then, switch back to the one with stone paper scissors. After that, you have to end the dialogue and you automatically won the stone paper scissors.

I wish there was a bug that would let me automatically lose the minigame. wink Because sometimes losing is clearly better.
For instance, when you enter the abandoned church in Cyseal you need to convince stone guardians. If you succeed, you get 2.1k XP and can't fight them. If you fail, you get 6.5k XP for killing them and they drop a nice 1h sword.


Originally Posted by ivra
I started a game to see how little XP I could get before being able to hire companions in the Hall of Heroes. I followed these steps to achieve this:

...

At this point you only have 5380 XP and are level 2. Hiring a level 1 companion now will not hinder your progress at all. Remember that when the game ends you will probably have reached at least level 20. When you reach level 21 you have 3080000 XP. Why all this fuss about companions being useless? If you are going to stick with two companions the entire game, the current system is not a restriction at all in my opinion. If, however, you would like to create a lot of companions and level them all up, then you cannot get them as high as your two heroes. But why should the game allow that? It is almost like cheating if you have 20 companions to choose from and can pick the two most suited for each and every task in the game.

Wow, all this metagame and you still couldn't get to them at level 1. That's a solid fail, bro. smile

But here's the real problem: henchmen (except Cain) just can't compete with companions now. You get companions for free, they start at level 3 and have some nice abilities. Particularly, Madora has Dust Devil which is otherwise unavailable so even Cain is of limited appeal. Jahan's preset is less exciting but he has Minor Heal and Rain so in my eyes he qualifies as a utility/healer.

Buying skill books early on without points in Bartering costs you arm and leg so it's awfully unfair that henchmen come with just one starting ability.

If there were a "create custom henchman" option that would let me make all the stat/skill choices and select 3 abilities like I do for main characters, then of course henchmen would be very useful. Right now they are totally useless. Full stop. End of story.

Last edited by prodigydancer; 19/08/14 01:49 PM.
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