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#142695 25/12/03 01:44 AM
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Man it´s been ages. But for some reason, my whims decided to lead me back to this board on christmas eve.

But not to wax nostalgia (well, at least not primarily <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />), but to give my 2 Eurocents on what part of Divinity could stand the most improvement in it´s sequel/expansion.

The subject I want to talk about is a bit non-standard, and I´ve been trying to come up with a good, catchy name for it.
But after finally getting it through my (rather thick) skull that marketing is not my calling I settled for "lenght-rationing".

Now what, pray tell, do I mean by that?

Well, you see, after finishing Divine Divinity, I somehow felt that it was a bit short.
*waits for riots to die down, then brushes of the various rotting vegetables and the occasional egg*
Yes, yes, I KNOW that it is by no means a short game, quite the opposite in fact. I didn´t keep track but I´m pretty sure it took me in excess of 60 hours to finish DD.
My point is, that although it is longer then most modern games, it somehow FELT short to me. And my aim in this post is to get to the bottom of why this is so.

The first reason I can think of is the ratio of Storyquests versus Sidequests. Compared with other CRPGs this is slanted heavily toward the latter. However, other games get away with this without feeling short (e.g. the Fallout series, especially Fallout 2).
This birngs me to the second factor that I thought was a bit off in DD: pacing.
The Storyquests in a RPG should follow, IMO, a similar pattern as a movieplot: The setup, several climaxes seperated by "downtime" or "lulls in the action", which should ideally be used to explore the characters and give them some depth, and finally, these climaxes should build up to the obligatory grand finale.
Now, the only point in the game that stands out in my mind as climactic (other then the final confrontation) is the scene of the reincarnation of the Player as the Divine One in the Council halls. Though I have to admit: That is one of the best and most atmospheric scenes in any RPG I have played, ever. Special mention goes to the music, the council halls background theme is the best in the game IMO. And the Succubus! I was actually sad when I discovered that she was the only one in the entire game. Best looking monster in an isometric game I have played (read: hot babes still do the trick <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)
Anyway, back on topic (*sound of car doing a handbrake-turn*): For some reason when I got to the council scene for the first time, I somehow felt that this is the point where the action really starts. That now, having become the Divine one, is the time where I can start to make moves against the Demon of Lies. And somehow, that led me to believe that, as far as the main story is concerned, the Council scene is the midpoint. Which probably explains why I felt that the game was "short"...
This is the reason that the concepts of "acts" and "chapters" are so popular in fiction, be it it literature, movies or theatre. They are invaluable in setting up the story "curve" or arc such that the audience feels that the story is moving along, and that it isn´t treading water.
Sidenote: Also an important storytelling tool that is often neglected in games is the epilogue (which is by no means limited to the "outtro" movie clip) which should give a sense of closure, and (maybe) set the scene for any sequel. For example, a conversation scene between the player and Arhu about his/her decision not to kill the child would have been great.
Anyway, the obvious problem with Acts or Chapters in computer games is that they limit non-linearity and freedom of movement for the player. One solution is a compromise (Exhibit A: Baldurs Gate 2). Another is to make them transparent to the player, using them only to write the script and to decide what quests and/or locations become available when (Exhibit B: Fallout series).

The final reason for DD somehow feeling shorter then it is, is that it also feels smaller then it is.
I tried to explore every nook and cranny in the game, so I know how massive the game world is. Yet it feels small. Not in the amount of terrain you can traverse but in... scope.
The areas of the game are setup such that one gets the impression that they are directly adjacent to each other, and have only been broken up for technical reasons. Thus, the castle and surrounding farmland feels like the suburbs of the big city, and the dwarf city feels like it is only half a days march away from the castle. This makes the game feel less epic in it´s scope, and makes the whole kingdom feel like only a small spec on the map.
This is the reason why RPGs often feature "travel maps" alá Indiana Jones, and why I think that they often are vitally important: I am absolutly certain, if the splash screen shown when switching areas in DD had been a map (not even animated) showing the way that the player travels from (for example) the forest to the castle, it would have made the world of DD feel much "larger" and thus, more epic.

Phew, that´s quite a rant. But I also had a lot of time to "build it up" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.
I just hope it isn´t mulitplied, or worse, eaten by the ISE... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

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#142696 26/12/03 12:59 PM
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I almost forgot the most important point: How does all this relate to BEyond Divinity.
Well, obviously I´d like to see a main storyline that is abit more structured. Personally, I don´t have a problem with visibly dividing the game into chapters (ala Baldurs Gate II)
And I´d also like to see a travel map, to spread the different locations apart geogrphically.

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#142697 27/12/03 06:48 AM
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I almost forgot the most important point: How does all this relate to BEyond Divinity.
Well, obviously I´d like to see a main storyline that is abit more structured. Personally, I don´t have a problem with visibly dividing the game into chapters (ala Baldurs Gate II)
And I´d also like to see a travel map, to spread the different locations apart geogrphically.


If you followed what Myrthos wrote on his interview to LS you would have discovered that LS implemented a better “linearity” for the story in BD in comparison to DD.

A storyline is a line by definition. It is a concatenation of interdependent events that lead to one another.
In modern story writing, some writers defy the rules by experimenting with different story structures.
Take for example a movie in which you follow three characters totally unrelated but we see them and what they do in time steps until they all come together to be trapped inside an elevator or a bank robbery etc.

In case of DD the last episode in which you face the demon of lies is more of a conclusion to the story but you cannot reach the black-ring dungeons if you do not learn how to cross the lake from the black dragon.
You cannot be there to learn anything if you did not hit the gong in the council of seven, whom you need to gather and each of the seven branches make a separate short story that converge onto that critical event.
Naturally there would be no meaning in rescuing Mardaneus if he was insane and possessed and that is how the story begins by a quest to restore the sanity of Mardaneus.

This story structure is classified as shallow linearity, but it is compensated by deep hierarchy.
It certainly leaves you with a feeling of the story being shallow, but that is precisely what the writers intended to do (experimentally). It is neither a lack of abilities nor a mistake of amateurish writing, but it does have merits and lightly psychological attachment that is somehow unfulfilling to some of us.

Story linearity is good and it was never a defect in a storyline that is supposed to be a line.
However, once we have a strictly linear story an RPG founded on such a line can be too much restricting and makes the player feel being imprisoned not to mention that it kills re-playability completely.

The remedy is to have such a well built story line then open gates at every stage for side quests or even side stories with complete story-body structures. The hierarchy of the side stories / quests can be as deep as three levels at most because deeper than that would distract the player completely from the main story line and leave a feeling of ridiculousness or an uncalled for complexity.

Hopefully, this had been taken care of in beyond divinity.

Kind regards.


#142698 27/12/03 12:09 PM
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You make a good point, DAD, that seemingly smaller, unrelated events do play a part in the bigger picture. One thing I always noticed with all the walkthroughs and such is that restoring Mardenus' sanity is not considered a vital quest. It's seen as a good introduction to the game play and a chance to level up, but optional if you want to get right into it.

So how does an insane Mardenus join the Council of Seven?

The necromancer, Theolin (name?), is also used later in the story where the grave robbers are collecting parts for him.

All these small things (if you can call a mage posessed by a dead necromancer small) do tie into the bigger picture. It doesn't have to be obvious, it just has to be.

The only thing that really bugged me with the Divine Divinty story line was "The Source." After having the healers complain about it for so long at the start of the game, it just seemed to vanish. No explination was ever given, even after defeating the Demon of Lies.

#142699 27/12/03 06:11 PM
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Yes, and that's exactly why it is the most fascinating element in the whole Divinity Universe to me !

The Source ... must have evolved very early in the stages of game development, as far as I know.

To me, it's like a similarity to the Force in Star Wars, or Chi / Qi / Ki in our real world.



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#142700 27/12/03 10:29 PM
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Quote

HandEFood:
The only thing that really bugged me with the Divine Divinty story line was "The Source." After having the healers complain about it for so long at the start of the game, it just seemed to vanish. No explination was ever given, even after defeating the Demon of Lies.


The way I reconciled the idea was that the “dragon shrine” was a water fountain and one does not expect any healing of humans with water containing contaminants.
The source of water is naturally a river, which we crossed over by a bridge right next to the fields that was poisoned. This means that the boring details are facts about the fields being poisoned and the water drained back to the river carried that poison and contaminated the source.

The “language” that was used reminds me of the Moorish Alchemists’ style to abstract a concept.
It is not sure if it is in the air of Divinity causing the rain to be contaminated, the earth being the source or the water in the river was directly contaminated. That is why obscuring it by calling it the source solves this little problem.

On the other hand, one can take it to mean the source of the poison that caused the “plague”.
It points to the ruler that is obsessed by the sward of lies of course.
It points to the black ring as well.
However, this point of view makes the source a negative concept to contrast the positive concept of a healing source set by the founder of Rivelon as magic in its water that can be conveyed by the healers or by the shrine in Aleroth.
So it is not the water in itself but the magic that was in the water that was contaminated by the poison.
Solving the quest of exposing doctor Elrath is supposed to restore the healing powers of water.

What should have really bugged you is that the three healers (else than Gamou and Mardaneous) did not return to Aleroth after solving that Quest. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

#142701 05/01/04 01:51 AM
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Small note: Just adding Sidequests does not increase replayability. You also need to make sure that different quests are available to the player depending on his previous choices. AFAIK, such decisions were few in DD, and with minimal impact.

I do think that replayability is overrated. In the modern gameworld, there are several high-quality titles that I may want to play at any given time. And my spare time does NOT tend to get longer...
So I actually like it sometimes when I know that I do not have to play a game several times to see everything (and I do like to see everything in a game).
I´m not saying replayability is bad, quite the opposite. I do say that not every game needs it. RPGs can benifit greatly from it, but only if the players actions can change the course of the game, and the PCs development significantly. (e.g. Planescape: Torment)

#142702 06/01/04 09:58 AM
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I love a game that has replay value, nothing like getting your moneys worth!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


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I love a game that has replay value, nothing like getting your moneys worth!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
@JollyJoe19,
I was also pondering the deep essence of this topic and noticed that a game like chess for example is the best example.

We all go out to buy a “Chess” game set, whether in wood, glass, plastic or even electronic forms with an intention to play it with a friend over and over and over again.

This “Replayability” is inherent in any game that is defined as a *Space* and *A Set Of Rules*.

Chess is indeed an abstract game of an imaginary battle in which opponents compete for ground, while winning as founded on overthrowing the king.

This style of play is very similar to *Skirmish*, which indeed one can play many times.

When skirmish is expanded into war rather than a mere battle here and there, resources become more pronounced as an issue and *Strategy* becomes the complex and more profound style of game.

Now, since we are fans of RPG we need to realise that what is on top of *A strategic collection of skirmishes* is a story line that practically does not change every time you play again.

This means that a rather complete structure of a fantastic RPG is to design it as a story of critical events and strategic goals on the big scale, yet set rules for building an economy into the world of the game such that every time we can change our strategy to influence the course of the game. Naturally there would be competition for resources and conflict arises leading to battles.

The key to Replayability is to include very clear rules of *Strategy* in battle, in economy and in the goal of victory.


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That was very well said DAD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


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That was very well said DAD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


He has a habit of doing that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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