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#557149 17/10/14 11:35 PM
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Just an idea, - suggestion for devs to maybe consider.



I think it might be worth it to look into what can be done to diversify the penalties in the game since they constrict the gameplay a bit too much, for the game as OS is.
(especially after longer or repeated playthroughs)

There are two kinds of penalties in the game, those that influence the skills and those against enemies with higher levels.

It seems to me both run too high and that they could be lowered a little bit to provide more width in gameplay.

Those which govern skills and spells with some minimal differences between levels and points spent on a skill or not creates 40% strong penalties, or higher. I think that needlessly skews the game more towards importance of pure class builds. Which is how it turned out in the end, after several changes in the last days of beta. Doesnt mean it cant be improved or adjusted.

Similar goes for enemies which in current system mostly become too strong, too different in a very drastic way - based on differences in levels.
A few levels above is still doable for some players but i dont think it would actually hurt to have that border be less rigid.
The way maps are designed, the story itself, the amounts of enemies there dont really require different sections to be so rigidly inaccessible as they are now - just based on levels.
Better to have it inaccessible because the enemies are more dangerous, numerous and more capable.


I think it would work great both for Cysael area and Luculla forest first stages.


If both of the penalties were to be lowered a bit and diversified so different enemies and places bring different amounts of penalties (which are generally lower but still there) instead of seemingly locked big amounts, the gameplay would only get better.

This would probably be best to do for the new official Hard mode since new difficulties would probably balance with this bigger width in gameplay very nicely.

Last edited by Hiver; 17/10/14 11:38 PM.
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Soo..you want to skip content and lose the consequences of it. What about those who do all the content and end up getting the levels? They get penalized with boredom for playing thoroughly?

This is not a skill based game. Tactics are not twitch based or requiring advanced formulas that only a mathematician can solve, I see no incentive in being able to wander the country side at half the level because..reasons. If you don't like the abstract concepts of level, experience and skill mastery then play an action adventure game.

It's not Dark Souls and isn't set up to have speed runs or 0 level runs played, its an abstract concept of time and progression. Thus RPG.

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Hiver Offline OP
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:lol:

say wut?

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Soo..you want to skip content and lose the consequences of it.


think

:lol:

I think things should be changed so people need a permit for the internet. A sort of drivers license for teh internet, with tests to pass and everything. Maybe even a few hours doing test drives online with an instructor. Medical checkup and basic psychiatric tests are of course a part of the procedure already. Luckily.

We would just need to make it mandatory for the internet too.

The very first thing you would get rid of with this would be all these teenagers and kids. Then the old people would fall off since well, it isnt safe to go online at that age anymore.

Then about 80% of forum posts would disappear. like that one above. Or they would never get created.

Then about so much of web sites would also go away. Who needs them anyway? Instead of 150 sites for every single thing we would have 5.

Christian Science Monitor, Cinema sins, weather report, someones left over playlist with almost all Led Zeppelin songs and Conan. (+ a global chat haha)

I mean, just good things can come out of it.
Imagine how quiet and nice it would be on the internet then...

Somebody should really do it.

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I'm glad you think so much of your opinion. Its a pity that no one else does, judging from the lack of replies to most of your posts. But you have fun with that omniscience.

Last edited by Bladenite78; 18/10/14 02:05 AM.
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I have biggest issue with Str/Dex/Int requirements for the equipment.

These should not be "hard" requirements, but give penalties if character has non-optional Str/Dex/Int, just like skills.

Currently, as it is, they promote single class specialization, where warriors will get Str, rogues/rangers Dex and mages Int.

For example, in order to use best crafter melee weapons your character must have really good Str.

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Hiver Offline OP
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I dont know, im ok with how that mechanic works.

Im usually playing hybrid characters and i found i can mix and match attributes in good enough ways for it. With the system working as it is i cannot make a hybrid that is too strong in one main attribute. I have to split them up and thats appropriate for such a build.

Although the equipment itself not being hard locked but giving penalties, well... i guess it could work too?

Luckily the game provides more then enough gear that additionally alters attributes so... its not a problem that is so rigid as penalties i mentioned.

And that bladenite completely and drastically misunderstood.
For some strange reason.


Actually, what i am suggesting would :

1. allow players to explore more of the sections on the map - because they wouldn't be so constrained by the enemies being practically impossible to fight depending just on levels.

2. allow for more effective hybrid builds that would be a bit easier and more diverse to make while the pure classes would not lose anything.


Just as crude example:
Maybe you dont need to have 30% chance to hit an enemy only one or two levels higher. Maybe it could be between 50% and 60%? 70%?

Maybe the chance to fail to use a spell or ability doesnt need to be as high as it is if youre missing one point in a skill? Maybe it could be just 10 - 20%, not 50% or more.



Of course that if you would do too much of this the game would become too easy. Thats precisely why i am suggesting just slight changes to the numbers, not anything drastic.
And being used together with the new upcoming real official Harder difficulty mod for the game.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
The very first thing you would get rid of with this would be all these teenagers and kids. Then the old people would fall off since well, it isnt safe to go online at that age anymore.


I am most likely as old or older than you. But your OP does not make any sense at all. On easy you should already be able to successfully fight enemies 3 or 4 levels higher than you, there is no absolutely no good reason to lower the fighting difficulty further, which is already quite low.

I will not comment your post above, suffice it to say that after 20 years of net experience, most of them in political discussion boards, allow me to conclude that idiots come in all age variations.

Regards,
Thorsten

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Hiver Offline OP
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Failure to understand simple sentences is one thing that definitely doesnt surprise me on these boards here. Or generally on the internet.

Im not talking about playing the game on easy or lowering the difficulty. As i explained above.

Speaking of idiotism, choosing to respond to a sarcastic comment with that self defacing attempt speaks enough.

Good to know you dont understand what is discussed, too.




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Originally Posted by Hiver
Im not talking about playing the game on easy or lowering the difficulty. As i explained above.


Whatever you say, that is, what you demand. A better chance to kill enemies several levels higher obviously equals = game easier.

Regards,
Thorsten

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Hiver Offline OP
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I really dont care what your failure to understand creates in your head. Save your ridiculous simpleton translations for yourself.

Those who it is addressed to understand it just fine. Thats what matters.

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Originally Posted by Hiver


Actually, what i am suggesting would :

1. allow players to explore more of the sections on the map - because they wouldn't be so constrained by the enemies being practically impossible to fight depending just on levels.



Well, theoretically, I think it is a good point to bring up - more freedom to wander around and to do things in different order is always good. For example, in Cyseal, (as a beginner) you are basically locked to the path "explore the town - tunnel under the graveyard - lighthouse -" and so on (not saying that it is not possible to do things in a different way but it is considerably more difficult). However, practically, I also have the feeling that D:OS might not have enough "map space" to allow for too many different paths without becoming too easy... For example, Cyseal map seems to me to be rather small once you have completely uncovered it.

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Having more options in how to handle the area doesnt mean its automatically making the game easy.

Especially if those encounters are revamped and made Harder through other means then just Level difference.

As i said from the start, this change would work best if combined with the upcoming official Harder mode.

If done properly, the difficulty would become based on other things and mechanics, not on level difference. Numbers of enemies, enemy groups composition, general tactics and Ai, more magic spells, elemental arrows, etc, etc.

Plus, of course, the changes themselves should be minimalistic instead of too drastic.
The devs will figure out the exact details if they would want to do something like this.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
The way maps are designed, the story itself, the amounts of enemies there dont really require different sections to be so rigidly inaccessible as they are now - just based on levels.

Try actually thinking outside the box and not running like a dumbass into combat. Use stealth, self-teleports, teleport pyramid, Charisma, etc. to avoid combat and get to non-combat quests. Not to mention using Charm to even the playing field if you do get in combat. DOS is not rigidly inaccessible. In my first run I did things out of order so I could get XP to fight the harder encounters in earlier areas.

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I even did it accidentially. So I had to flee sometimes and either come back better prepared or sneak if I desparately wanted to go somewhere I was not supposed to go with the level of my party. No problem at all.

Regards,
Thorsten

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Hiver Offline OP
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Guys... i did all that. well before you ever saw the game. theres an npc in the game called after me, ffs...

Dont be so bleeding stupid.

I wont repeat the same thing over and over just because you dont get it.

I didnt say that the game is inaccessible or rigid, the genious Mongoose did, just above.

I bloody said some penalties are a bit rigid. Which means you two cannot understand simple sentences in english.

Feel free to stop repeating the same thing over and over. (and posting here too, yes)

Last edited by Hiver; 19/10/14 08:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hiver
Feel free to stop repeating the same thing over and over. (and posting here too, yes)


ROFL. Good boy. Thanks for the encouragement.

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Thorsten

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They don't want hybrids to be as effective at singular abilities as Pure class builds. That's not a flaw, its by design. They want you to choose what works and stick with it, have multiple characters carry the load, not one character who is a Master of everything.

My opinion is they should split it even further, have two of the magic skills run off another stat like Willpower or something.

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Despite the cantankerous, condescending, "get off my lawn" attitude, I agree with Hiver more or less. Arbitrary limitations on player choices are annoying. Sure, RPGs by nature have many arbitrary things, and there should be SOME penalty to fighting high level opponents, but it is a little harsh. If the game becomes much harder with the hardcore difficulty, then making it easier to fight higher level enemies shouldn't be much of an issue, because fighting enemies you're own level will be challenging enough.

But frankly, I'd be more interested in addressing the opposite case: fighting enemies too low of level. I remember going to black cove after I had cleared much of the church area, and being two levels or so above everyone there. It was boring because I just demolished everything. It'd be nice if enemies scaled up to your level, if only to some degree. Zombies outside of Cyseal shouldn't be level 20 if you miss a fight, but maybe they could go up to 10. I could definitely see some people not wanting this, so perhaps it could be an option (or part of hardcore mode). If they don't implement this, I might look into adding it myself.

I'm not so sure on reducing the penalty for multiclassing. It's already pretty easy to multiclass. But skill penalties for lacking stats could probably be reduced a hair. On the other end of the scale, intelligence bonuses on cooldown need to be reduced a lot. I like the idea of gear being wearable by anyone, but suffering strong penalties for low stats, kind of like how using high level weapons requires additional AP costs. Different items could have different penalties. Using strength items with a lack of strength could reduce speed (2 points per lack of strength) and armor, using dexterity items with low dex could reduce hit and dodge chances, using intelligence gear with low int could decrease spell success and increase cooldowns, or something like that. People could then weigh whether the penalties are worth the gear bonuses or not. Probably too hard to balance properly, but could be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Hiver
I didnt say that the game is inaccessible or rigid, the genious Mongoose did, just above.

Didn't say that, just said you're bad at the game.

Originally Posted by Hiver
Guys... i did all that. well before you ever saw the game. theres an npc in the game called after me, ffs...

So why are you bad at this game?

Originally Posted by Hiver
I bloody said some penalties are a bit rigid.

Originally Posted by Hiver
different sections to be so rigidly inaccessible as they are now



Originally Posted by Hiver
Feel free to stop repeating the same thing over and over. (and posting here too, yes)

Lol go review some more GoT in your one person messageboard.

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Originally Posted by Baardvark
Despite the cantankerous, condescending, "get off my lawn" attitude,

That is specifically directed at two asswipes who jumped to some stupid conclusion from reading the title, then in lack of anything else to say went for even stupider "oh your bad at the game and want it easy" brain fart.

After i spent most of the beta asking for various encounters to be made more difficult - which then were pushed to the state they are today.

And generally asking for better harder difficulty... which is all in my post history, btw.

But these two are not interested in thinking. They just splurge stupid half insults to make themselves feel better.


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If the game becomes much harder with the hardcore difficulty, then making it easier to fight higher level enemies shouldn't be much of an issue, because fighting enemies you're own level will be challenging enough.

The best thing about this is that the difficulty wouldnt depend on difference in levels alone anymore, as it seems now, but on other things.

Just like just changing enemy health and damage isnt really a proper Hard mode, which is one of the reasons Larian will be doing a sort of addon better Hard mode, which is what a game like OS really deserves.


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But frankly, I'd be more interested in addressing the opposite case: fighting enemies too low of level.

You see, with a proper hardermode - and enemies difficulty not being dependant on level differences - even the lower level encounters would be more difficult.


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I'm not so sure on reducing the penalty for multiclassing. It's already pretty easy to multiclass. But skill penalties for lacking stats could probably be reduced a hair. On the other end of the scale, intelligence bonuses on cooldown need to be reduced a lot.


The game was always and originally meant to be a classfree system.

Now, as i said, during the last few weeks of the beta there had been several bigger changes that tried to adress this specific balance.

And then the last update before release set things as they are. Which is good and playable - i play three or four skills hybrids all the time and mostly find the game on the easy side.

I played with just two SH without op talents on hard too. And im intending to make a mod using that and numerous other adjustments to make the game harder in a different ways.

There isnt a way that i havent played this game in.

But it could be - theoretically - made a bit better.


/

Just because there are tow simpletons spamming their stupidity here - does not mean what they imagine is true. It just means they are stupid.




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