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Originally Posted by player1
Every my non-mage character has 1 point of Geomancer.

You can never get enough Spider pets. laugh

Plus, summons are not affected, in any way, by stat penalty (for some reason).


You know I've never summoned a spider. I typically don't summon things even when I play mages. Not sure why. Next play through I'll have to give that a shot.

Back on topic (if we can get back there). What changes were you thinking of? Though I wouldn't like being non-class, curious about how you see it working in D:OS

Last edited by Phalzyr; 23/10/14 01:24 AM.

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With or without penalties making gear able to be worn by all classes, defeats the whole class based system IMO. If he likes it that way that is fine by me, I don't.


This is supposed to be a classless game... (see Devs? see what youve done?) - and what you like or not isnt really an argument about what this game is or should be. Its not relevant.

To say the least.

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I have no clue how to the game works because unlike you I can win against enemies higher level than me.

Its not really nice to laugh at certain kinds of people but i just burst out at this one.

I mean...hahaha... you dont even get that abusing Ai or any other cheesy glich or a mistake is not a part of the game mechanics.

:lol:

and you even brag about it as proof of how you can beat higher level enemies.

:lmao:


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Again flaming?

Telling the truth is not flaming... but i guess that one is too complicated for you too.

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Consider yourself reported again. once I get done with this post.

why even tell me this?

Youre... obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed - person, who reports other people posts because you want to get them banned - because you dont like - because you cannot understand it) - ... something.

Just like my posts were reported by those other two intellectually devolved aggressive trolls - with the same purpose. It doesnt have anything to do with the game... just with what you like or want and what you dont like.

And several of their and your exact clones doing exact same things in the past. Even repeating the same devolved inanities almost to the letter.


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It is funny because I proved you wrong?


:lol: nope.

:lol: no, thats not why its funny.


And i think this will be all from you. Plus that pm also was funny.


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I think its pretty obvious that this is a class based game, take a look at the skill names in the spread sheets.

Ranger Lore, Warrior Lore, Air Specialist..its not a rigid class system, but it is a class sytem its just that your class is determined by your skills. It's a lot like the Job system of Final Fantasy Tactics imo.

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Originally Posted by Phalzyr
Back on topic (if we can get back there). What changes were you thinking of? Though I wouldn't like being non-class, curious about how you see it working in D:OS


I was thinking of equipment requirements working more like spell requirements.
Like giving "some" penalties if not having optional level of stat.

.

Alternatively, have more "decent" higher level items with lower stat requirements.

.

Currently, there is inflation of stat requirements based on item level. So game mechanic forces you to keep investing in one stat in order to be able to use higher level gear.

There is a bit of items with lower stat requirements, but not enough.

For example, mail armors have lower Str requirement then plate. But, they are highly inferior, instead just being somewhat weaker or different then plate.

Then you have maces or hammers that are pretty much most useless kind of single hand weapon. Poor damage, uncraftable...

And crafting system itself is geared toward high stat items. Pretty much all things that you craft require high stats, with no option to craft something weaker with lower stats (without saving stuff crafted a few levels before). It is really difficult to use crafting to make items for hybrid characters that focus on two main stats, instead of one.


For example, if I want to build a "cleric" type character that uses some water magic and warrior weapons, it is difficult to do balancing of two stats, without gimping yourself in warrior equipment. Here Str stat is superior because it is hard cap on equipment, while Int is soft-cap, because you just get penalties if Int is not good enough.


Many of starting "classes" in the game are not really classes, but hybrids, and are also not viable in the long run, due to way how equipment stat requirements scale in the game.

These "classes" are pretty much traps for beginners which are unable to min-max well character stats to get best of their hybrids, without getting inferior characters.

.

To sum up, how I see current system is that there are only 3 "decent" classes:

Strength class
Dexterity class
Intelligence class

With each of them that can be specialized in multiple paths.

Strength class: single with shield or two handed weapons (or both with tenebrium!!!), plate armor (or mail if desperate)
Dexterity class: bow, crossbow or daggers (or ALL with tenebrium!!!), stealth, leather armor
Intelligence class: pick any magic skills you want, staffs for weapons, robes for armor

With each of the classes being able to dip a little in some skills or other classes, but no more then that.


And then, there are "beginner trap" classes:
Battlemage (Str+Int)
Cleric (Str+Int)
Wayfarer (Dex+Int)
Shadowblade (Dex+Int)

Which are pretty much recipe for disaster, if you are not a really skilled player for min-maxing your stats.

Last edited by player1; 23/10/14 07:11 AM.
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First of all, thats not a topic here.

Second, those "classes" you numbered as disasters are not like that at all.
I played a shadowblade (with even added fighting and more magic skills) often and it doesnt require any min-maxing.

You can of course, but it is not required.


Originally Posted by Bladenite78
I think its pretty obvious that this is a class based game, take a look at the skill names in the spread sheets.

Ranger Lore, Warrior Lore, Air Specialist..its not a rigid class system, but it is a class sytem its just that your class is determined by your skills. It's a lot like the Job system of Final Fantasy Tactics imo.


See devs?

Ill be the first to suggest a different starting presentation for the next game. If it will be done in the similar classless style.

Bladenite, i dont mind that there are classes in the game. Or the possibility to make such builds.
But, the presets in the character creation and the names of the skills are there just to make it easier for the players.

That just ended up looking as if the game is class based to most of the players.

I consider these level based penalties as a sort of meta skill in the game.
Which has too big of an importance in gameplay - that reduces the importance of actual skills and stats.

It creates this effect where the same type of an enemy is different to you, the player - just because there is a level or two of difference. And then that same encounter becomes too easy just because that level difference was reduced or equalized.

Not to mention that the possibility of even seeing the enemy stats is practically a hand holding option that tells players can they do the fight or not - in a wrong way. A meta way.

Which means it really isnt based on anything thats actually a part of the setting or the story.

Although Larian did it in the best possible way, tying it to the Lore skill so it atleast looks like it has anything to do with the game world.


As an simplified example of reference, ill mention the penalties applied to weapons above your level.
That causes the increase in the AP cost, but that penalty is done in a right way.
The cost increases for one or two points most of the time, which makes it just right. It makes you think about whether to use that weapon or not in just the right way. The cost and the benefits and drawbacks are done just right.

And it makes internal sense more then the other penalties i talk about.

If it was done in the same way as penalties i mentioned as bad, the cost would be 5 or 7 or 10 APs more - which would make that option practically unplayable.


("practically" - actually means that something is not completely locked or closed, btw.)



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Originally Posted by player1

Alternatively, have more "decent" higher level items with lower stat requirements.


Make them high cost or very hard to find, that would be nice alternative.

Originally Posted by player1
Currently, there is inflation of stat requirements based on item level. So game mechanic forces you to keep investing in one stat in order to be able to use higher level gear.


That is how class based systems tend to work, I recall choosing my class at start of game... If I hadn't I wouldn't of expected it to be so rigid.

Originally Posted by player1
There is a bit of items with lower stat requirements, but not enough.

Agreed, more variety is always better, and also why have a weapon type that doesn't give you an advantage for its lowered damage output. Like you I didn't find certain type to be useful at all, just more clutter for inv.

Originally Posted by player1
with no option to craft something weaker with lower stats (without saving stuff crafted a few levels before).

That sucks, haven't done much crafting myself.

Originally Posted by player1
"cleric" type character

Yes, noticed that as well. I just made all my mages have healing also... That is the only hybrid I was going to play, but in most games cleric get the short stick. In a lot of games they are even limited on type of armor not just by stat. and some even stop you from casting magic while wearing armor above certain type (I hate that game mechanic)

Originally Posted by player1
To sum up, how I see current system is that there are only 3 "decent" classes:


Thanks for explaining for me. I'm not that far into game myself, actually switched to playing WL2 for a while. By the sound of it what they need to do is have INT based armor that is better in later game.

MY mages so far have been able to keep out of the fray for the most part. So armor hasn't been that important for them. If it is becoming more of an issue later in game then an easy solution IMO would be to add better INT/DEX based armors. they don't need to be as good as the STR ones for that would remove the class lines.

Adding a penalty to STR based armor would work out the same but make all character were same type of armor in end.

How far were you into game when you started having trouble? Is it because you get swarmed by enemies and unable to hold them off?


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I'm not that far into game myself


:lol:


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Player1: To clarify when I said I haven't played much I meant haven't gotten to late stage game... I got a bit past Cyseal 5 times now, but keep on restaring. Then switched to WL2, will get back to playing WL2 soon... IF time allows... Crazy hard finding time to play lately...

Last edited by Phalzyr; 23/10/14 02:03 PM.

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As i was playing the game anew yesterday, playing with only the two Sourcehunters and trying to find the new companions... i ran into a couple of very good examples of what im talking about here.

I got to level 3 fairly easy, doing the very first quests in Cysael and upper western area.

Then by mistake i started a fight with the first group of zombie boars and undead, in the middle of the map, leading to the cave where the Sparkmaster is.

That group is lvl 5, two levels above me.
Without any cheating, cheesing and abusing the game rules or Ai and without careful preparation beforehand i find it a fight that is almost impossible to win. I hold my own for some time ... then i usually get killed off in a series of bad RNG results.

Then there is a group of three lvl 5 zombies next to the northern gate.

I stomp those three very easily. Of course.
The encounter is designed to allow that, with zombies nicely staying in a puddle of poison that just begs to be set on fire.

The true difficulty of these two encounters is not in the penalties reflecting the level difference.
It is in the party composition, their abilities, Ai and environment that dictates your own approaches, based on your characters abilities.


Then i walked a bit to the east and thought to just take out that first Burning Soldier from the left. Cant do anything because my two Sourcehunters at level 3 opposed to a burning soldier at level 8 - results in my chance to hit being 0. Zero.

Why exactly is that?

The burning soldiers arent some agile dodgers. They are massive, relatively slow enemies.
It doesnt seem like a reasonable or sensible thing to see in the game.

I should be able to hit such an enemy, unless he has the ability to transform into air for each hit.
What damage i do with my hits can be a matter of stats, or specific enemy resistances. But not my chance to hit - being only dependent on level difference (as it seems in the gameplay).

I wont be able to win against the burning horde with lvl 3 characters regardless of that 0... so... why is it even in the game?

It just locks the player from even trying to handle some tougher area and promotes gamey meta behavior and exploitation and abuse of games rules.


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Nice examples, and presented calmly smile

I do have a few things to ask.

You mentioned not abusing game mechanics/AI to win. Does that include using tactics? As using CC spells are tactical option. Granted you are right that if you purposely nerf your party to not have CC options, battles are tougher. If the game is balanced for the worst party set-up then we'd see everyone complaining that the game is too easy (not that we don't get enough of that as is)

The burning soldiers would be an extreme case, not the norm. Some places you aren't meant to go to at level 3 and they don't want you to. That might be why they chose penalties, so you'd have some guidance in where you should be going. But having a hard set penalty rather than just the enemy being stronger/better is a bad choice.

If they wasn't a penalty and you have a difficulty killing creatures 2 levels high than you, how exactly do you see removing the penalty being helpful in that case 5 level higher?

Some game I play are designed to be open sand-box and creatures level with the player. I tend to dislike that choice as I never feel like I'm getting stronger. And also that would be hard to balance well in a party system, it is hard enough to balance in solo character.

Please explain how you see altering/removing the penalty system will actually help you explore more sooner? Because as you currently demonstrated in a poorly designed party it too hard to beat enemies 2 levels higher than you let alone 5 level higher...

I was actually surprised the amount of map open to my low level characters only one corner (where those level 8s were) was blocked from my exploration.

Last but not least... How did your party stay level 3 after all that fighting? smile

EDIT: Sorry read your paragraph about "It is in the party composition" as your composition the first time, not what the enemy was setup as. removed that comment...


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I suggest that you stay away from this thread, since i have put you on ignore and i have no intention of reverting that, ever. The only reason im looking at your post now is because you posted in my thread, again, after being told several times to ... you know what and where.

For me you are what i told you in the PM. It wasnt anger speaking.

Otherwise you simply lack incredible amounts of knowledge and experience with this game to offer any relevant info or thoughts about any of it. Not to mention blatant lack of intelligence or common sense.

Asking question like you do above and insinuating that i would somehow want level scaling is enough for me to bash your face in... in real life.

So, stop polluting my thread with what you "did" or didnt understand. And whatever falls out of that.

Because all that will do is confuse other people reading this.

It has nothing to do with what i am saying at all.


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Never said you wanted level scaling, another poster mentioned it and I was just referring to that style as it came to mind... Why does everything you read have to be about you? I don't see anyone else confused by my posts just you... and you seem to say that to everyone that disagrees with you.

I asked you questions so that you could explain better the way you explain some things contradicts other thing you say, and I was just trying to understand you better.

Asking questions about what you said has nothing to do with what you said? rolleyes

I was being polite, to your polite post but then you respond by flaming rolleyes

Last edited by Phalzyr; 28/10/14 08:30 PM.

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As i said above and despite this latest attempt at distorting what im saying, unwitting as it may be, from someone i aksed to stop spamming my thread already... and put on ignore...


...

The examples given above clearly show that actual difficulty of an encounter is not in the few arbitrary penalties that depend on level differences alone.
Of course, removing or adjusting those does not mean that suddenly there would be no difficult enemies.

It only means that the true difficulty of an encounter should be returned to dependence on enemy abilities, stats, skills, Ai, the overall encounter design, enemy groups composition and the environment.

Instead of some sort of meta "penalties" that are just invented and thrown over it.


Which, in the end will mean that combat encounters would be even more difficult, both with higher level enemies and lower level enemies.
Instead of current situation where higher level enemies are too strong and low are too easy.


I already said all that in previous posts too.
Its just that i have to repeat it, otherwise any random reader will think these ludicrous posts by few posters above are somehow true.


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And if you read my posts, most of your last post wouldn't of need to been said yet again. I said I agree with removing penalties and just making tougher enemies tougher based on their own strength rather than penalty.

However that wasn't the only point you made, or the only thing you posted about. I was asking about other things you posted. I.E. not being able to explore as well as you'd like because of penalty based on enemy levels. That won't change by penalty removal itself, unless they adjust the balance of enemies.

Maybe that is why you are so confused, do you think people can only talk about your main point? Ignoring everything else you said? take stuff out of context much?



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