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egalor Offline OP
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SPOILER ALERT:
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BBCodes in this thread are not supported, I don't know why. So if you don't want any spoliers I recommend to look away, until mods fix this.
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Hello, this is my first topic here.

Well, DOS has been my first experience in the wolrd of Divinity. Somehow I missed out all previous Divinity games, but by the looks they were good. So, after finishing Wasteland 2 last week, I started out with DOS. I especially waited several months after release, so I could be sure, that the game would be properly patched to an 'as intended' state.

I liked very much the welcoming music in the game. Really, the composers did a great job. Also, the possibility to interact with objects looks nice. Sort of fresh.

Unfortunately at this point, my fun with the game started to decline slowly, so from hereon the critique will follow. For your info: I'm an avid crpg player, been playing since 80s. Started off with Gold Box series (Pool of Radiance and others). My fav crpgs are BG1,2, Fallout 1,2, Torment, Witcher to name but a few. So, I think I understand a thing or two in crpgs, as probably you do as well.

I will try to be as reasonable as possible, but DOS fanbois please look away, you won't listen to reason anyway.

1. Character generation.
a) I want to have different 3d models. I for one, don't like chars with bulging biceps, but the game won't let me choose anything other than that: a high fantasy bloke. With jrpg-like immense swordz and tank-like armorz. And I wanted to customize the loadout of my Knight. Not possible, ok.

b) Why would my party consist of two PCs? I would prefer either to have a full party of 6 or so PCs, or a single one. I tried then to make the first one a younger lad, and the other one - a wizened old man. Both were males. I failed, because the models were the same: bulging biceps, tank-size armor and... same heads. [b]And not even a bald one[/b]! This is purely ridiculous, but ok. I can live with that. Two lookalikes, but ok.

2. A game-breaking bug with Cecil's key. /extremely important/
I usually tend not to notice any bugs in games. Y'know, beta-testing isn't my thing. I prefer finished games. But in DOS, I was extremely surprised when I've noticed that the key [spoiler]in Cecil's room [/spoiler][b]cannot be picked up[/b], although I see it lying at my feet. If I hit ALT and click on 'KEY', the key is picked up BUT does not appear in my inventory and is gone. I had to reload, and try that again. Same result. I went to the internets, and the first thing I've encountered is the same bug being discussed. So, this is a quest-breaking bug, which made me [spoiler]use the pyramid to enter that room[/spoiler], but this is not how I wanted to solve that part of the quest.

I thought the game was supposed to be functional at least at a basic level. It obviously is not the case (maybe not just yet).

3. That Ornate Chest behind a rope.
A game sort of 'breaks the fourth wall' by mocking the fact that the game engine would not support stepping (jumping) over ingame objects. I understood at a later point that [spoiler]I had to use the pyramid [/spoiler]to get to the chest, but it was very annoying in the beginning, and felt not funnt but stupid. Like, what the hell? Using game-engine deficiencies to kinda taunt me as a player, and totally out of the game atmosphere? This wasn't fun at all, if not plain stupid.

4. "Rocks fall everyone dies".
So I stepped to that part of the coast with [spoiler]a crying orc[/spoiler]. I was warned by the game that I had to have perception to spot traps. I didn't have free XP points to raise perception to 1, so I decided to explore the coast at my own risk for a little bit (not going too far away). BANG! My party was immediately killed - reload. Without even a smallest hint on the ground: like a thin rope, or bloody patch, or crows feeding on a freshly dug earth trapped with mines (like in Wasteland 2, for example). I know it's unfirgiving, deadly and all, but it ain't fun. The game is supposed to hurt me maybe, but not kill outright. Especially when I'm still getting used to it's controls, physics and other specifics.

So, yeah, 'rocks fall everyone dies' concept is indeed as unforgiving, as reloading is not fun.

5. Objects lack description.
I was surprised to realise that none of the objects in the inventory are lacking any sort of description. This is not only does a bad service to immersion, but is also not too convenient, as I have to recall, which quest item is for what. Not to mention, that description in words serves the immersion. I don't get it, Larian Studios: was it really that hard to make a description of each item in the game? I mean, really?

6. No quests in the log.
This is very inconvenient that I don't have a list of quests. Only a list of events, which I have to re-read fully in order to establish my next 'stopping point' in the quest. I understand that the devs wanted to make it look as less casual as possible, but they finished with exactly the same quest logic only in a less convenient form.

7. That 'isle in the space'.
Storywise it was very strange to launch the PC to space so early on in the game. When I just start exploring the world, and everything is very new, and I'm not accustomed yet to this new city of Cyseal, it does not add to fun to find myself in a very abstract/unnatural set of rooms full of weird teleports. Abstract things are not interesting to explore because they do not reflect the reality, and are the pure product of the devs' imagination which can be anything (as opposed to the city of Cyseal, for example, which rests on the (pseudo)historic background, as all generic fantasy setting does). But I admit, maybe I'm too subjective here, sorry for that.

***

I personally stopped at a point where I've activated the second portal on that space island without any explanation whatsoever. I entered it, and I felt that I was bored and didn't want to go on, and I wanted to share these thoughts with someone. This happens rarely in my gaming practice, when I can positively tell that there are severe flaws in gamedesign, story and graphics (although the latter is less important, but still serves the immersion). But maybe I was just expecting too much from DOS. Maybe this game is just not for me. I am not sure, if I'm ready to continue playing it, anyway.

What were your feelings about those points? Do you agree, or do you think I'm missing something out?








Last edited by egalor; 15/12/14 11:20 PM.
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There are restrictions on new accounts to discourage spam, including lack of UBBCode. If you want to edit your post, you can use spoiler tags now.

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egalor Offline OP
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Spoiler and other tags seem to be in place. I don't get it why they aren't working smile sorry smile

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UBBCode is disabled for new accounts. I moved you from the new user group to the user group, so now you can use UBBCode, and don't need captchas to post, etc. Just edit your post, optionally take out the sentence saying UBBCode isn't working and then 'change post'.


The main characters started of with specific backstories, personalities and appearances. When that was changed there wasn't enough time to add full customization of body types to character creation.

Keys only show up in the 'keys' section of the inventory, so they don't clutter up 'all'.
For that key I don't recall having to hit Alt to pick it up. Moving the camera or zooming in may have allowed you to get it, as well.

There are also teleport spells to get past the rope, or Telekinesis to get the chest.

The size of the footprints on the beach west of the harbour, and the orc, comments your characters made, the bodies on the beach and the conversation with the guard at the gate should have indicated the area might be difficult at your level.
You can separate characters, and have one explore alone, especially when you are warned there are traps. You can not control summons, but earth summons have good perception, and summoned way from the character, they can trigger traps walking back (don't think the spider will, IIRC).

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Welcome to the forums!

1.) I agree with the character generation. It was annoying to have a battle mage looking like the Incredible Hulk.

You can get up to 4 party members and choose up to 4 that you'll find around the area that have a story line. One is in the Tavern, One is in Mayor Cecil's House, One is down a well, and one is caged up. Later on you can get henchmen if you don't want any quest/story driven characters.

2.) Cecil Key - I personally haven't experienced this glitched. It sounds like a broken item was generated. Were you able to pick up and use the key after reloading?

3.) Ornate Chest behind the rope. I just teleported the chest using a spell. This bit of information will come in handy later on. Though you can also use the pyramids to "jump" over long distances. Telekiness helps with how far you can throw the pyramids so keep items that give free boosts in the back pack of one character.


4.) Yeh the orc area. So if you got a fireball spell, you can uncover traps like that by just blasting the ground. It is best to spend perception points on archers. By holding down CTRL, you can then shoot traps with your archer and not worry about spell casting at all!

5.) Items lacking description. Are you looking for something like this?
[Unidentified] Bloody Dagger
Quest Item - murder mystery

6.) NO quests in the log.
I can see how this can be frustrating. Larian wants quests to be hidden and you only find them after talking to people. They did this to encourage exploration and interaction with every NPC. This is more part of the old school feel that they want us to experience.

7.) I know EXACTLY what you mean about the island of space. To be quite honest, on my first POST beta I totally forgot about it. I visited it once and it really does feel like a separate entity of the game.

Due to this, there is currently a game breaking bug. If you happen to enter the Phantom Forest (think that is what it called) Zixzax will tell you the homestead is under attack (by something BAD). If you happen to get this far, DO NOT CONTINUE and RELOAD until you visit the homestead (island in space) with all your starstones. Once it comes under attack, he won't open portals until you finish that quest story line.

This glitch killed the game for me. I'm waiting for the combat rebalancing patch before I play again. Though I am a KS backer and played in beta, I haven't finished the game due to this glitch.

Last edited by LightningLockey; 16/12/14 06:32 AM.

Every time there I run into trouble on the road, there is always a dwarf at the bottom of it. Don't they know how to drive above ground?
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3. That Ornate Chest behind a rope.

Hahahahahhahahahahaaaa !!!!

I've "brains" I can USE them to find for each problem a solution hehe
That's MY way to handle such things like this and in MY opinion ....
... it's better than becoming "agry" aboout this and that ...

There's ALWAYS what in a game to nag about. I also don't like everything that much ina game, also in DOS, but that's human :
NO GAME in the whole world is PERFECT, NO game !!!
And, each game has it's "characteristics", or say it like this :
"a collection" of all the input of a group of people, the developers, that maked Divnity: Original Sin,
in this case Larian Studios .

And I known for 10000000 % sure, and I FEEL that while playing this rpg, that it is maked with many, many Passion,
with all their love, with all their efforts, with Heart & Soul !!

And IF you can make it better, don't hesitate to start modding this game or make your own rpg with the DOS Editor !! wink


On 7th of february 2015 : I start a new adventure in the Divinity world of Original Sin,
it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Seems like we share the same experience (my first Larian game, too) and preferences in cRPGs(mixed feelings about Planescape, though: wonderful game, definitely not an RPG. For me, it's a isometric graphical adventure with minor fights), but I came to the opposite conclusion: D:OS is on par and, I would say, even better than some of the old skull classics.

Let's review your points:

1. Character generation.
a. I can see your point, even if I don't mind too much the lack of "graphical" character personalization. Actually, a game that really pissed me off was Dragon Age: Origins: what kind of RPG would allow you to define the distance between the eyes and the shape of your eyebrows and, AT THE SAME TIME, give me to choose only three classes? Anyway yes, I think that a couple more of body type would be fine.
b. I thought the same, in the beginning: why only two, if the group can be composed of four characters? It's clear from the tutorial area, and even more going on with the game, that it's accurately designed around this choice. And it's wonderful, played in co-op.

2. A game-breaking bug with Cecil's key. /extremely important/
For me, it worked as intended (I think)!

3. That Ornate Chest behind a rope.
That one gave me a laugh, kept me in the "it's a game, have fun!" zone and was the second (after the "our ship is burning") time I was asked to actually creatively look for a solution. Maybe it's just the illusion of creativity, but it worked for me, in a way that NO other RPG was able to.

4. "Rocks fall everyone dies".
In my playthrough, I had a character with very good Perception, I always listened to people telling me "Here be dragons", so that particular episode didn't come as unexpected as to you.I had a similar "WTF" moment, which I think I felt the same way you did: that bomb buried near Thelyrion's clinic. It was pointless and unforeseeable, just cruel, and I felt a little cheated (actually my character didn't want to dig that place, my brother's did).

5. Objects lack description.
Nope, didn't bother me.

6. No quests in the log.
I felt this liberating: no more "go to A", "bring X to B", "kill C", just "that's what happened, that guy would like to have this kind of conclusion, you're free to act as you like". As in point 2, I felt like I was the one choosing what to do.

7. That 'isle in the space'.
Yes, it was strange in the beginning, then I sort of get used to chat with that little imp and the other strange characters over there. Actually, I found amusing that the main "classic" RPG quest, "the world is getting destroyed! You gotta save us all!", was delivered in such a strange fashion. The game was telling me "take your time. Smell the flowers. You'll save the world, eventually, but have fun in the meanwhile!".


I think you should try to go on with the game. If you don't, you'll miss one of the best (and I'm telling you, this is not Mass Effect good, it's Baldur's Gate 2 good!) RPGs ever published.

Last edited by GoatBoy; 16/12/14 05:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by LightningLockey


Due to this, there is currently a game breaking bug. If you happen to enter the Phantom Forest (think that is what it called) Zixzax will tell you the homestead is under attack (by something BAD). If you happen to get this far, DO NOT CONTINUE and RELOAD until you visit the homestead (island in space) with all your starstones. Once it comes under attack, he won't open portals until you finish that quest story line.

This glitch killed the game for me. I'm waiting for the combat rebalancing patch before I play again. Though I am a KS backer and played in beta, I haven't finished the game due to this glitch.

It's an annoying issue but not a game breaking bug. Just do that main quest and the attack on the homestead will end... wink


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Picking up Cecil's key should be working fine. Have you checked the "Keys" tab in your inventory? Keys normally are not displayed in the "All" inventory to reduce clutter; but the key should be in there.

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Ok, I passed through that. Just a little bit of thinking.

However I got to Grulbarg the Fearsome, being at level 3. How am I supposed to beat his band of orcs? I get wiped out even before they reach my party for combat. I'm simply shot for 50-70 HPs, get set on fire and voila, I'm busted. I'm not even gonna retry this combat because it's hopeless, and definitely not fun. But I dunno now how am I supposed to move on the plot...

BTW I can't even disarm the stupid explosive traps at this level (my perception is around 1 I can't even see them!). So I have to 'attack ground' with flare to set off a trap, because I know there was a mine thanks to a Load Game mega-spell. But loadgame scamming is super annoying.

Is that how this game is supposed to be played?

Last edited by egalor; 24/12/14 10:11 PM.
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You are not. Go another way.

You should be able to see the level of the enemies when you mouse over them. Those ones I think are in the level 5-6 range. One level means a BIG difference in this game. You should not be trying to force your way through at level 3 unless you really, really know what you're doing. Stop bashing your head against that area and try someplace with level 3-4 enemies.

How can you have 1 Perception? The base should be 5.

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He doesn't have a perception of 1, he obviously means he just hasn't increased it.

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1. If the character models are the only thing you can find to complain about in character generation, thats an actual compliemnt. An elder RPG player like you should understand that.

Not that we didnt have many who were kind of superficial in the ranks... cough...

- Your party consist of two PCs because the game was meant to have only two players originally. And the game was designed to be played in co-op the most. Only later were the extra "companions" added - because the crowd demanded it. Most of combat balance problems in the game stems from this radical change in the design (but it has been mostly corrected by now, it wont bother you at all)


2. Its not a game breaking bug if you can solve that situation in another way and continue playing. Its just one option in a small situational sub quest - bug.


3. The chest behind the rope serves to show the players how to navigate through the game content using their skills. Not to make you feel nothing at all as you clikc on another cheast with some minor loot.
Learn to jump white man. Or teleport, or... other things.


4. You are not playing a mass market designed W2 that is a linear garbage that holds your hands all the time boyo.
Yes, the game should kill you outright if you didnt even put a single point into perception and then went into a difficult higher level area that is mined and requires perception.

(also, that part is easily traversable even without perception.... you have just been made into a mass market drone by W2 so you are not thinking anymore. Good news though, if you try it will come back.)



5.
Quote
I was surprised to realize that none of the objects in the inventory are lacking any sort of description.

This sentence actually means that all items in the game have a description.

Also, quest items are marked as quest items and you cannot sell them either. For me its descriptive enough.


6. The slight problems with directions and players getting where they need to go cannot be solved by more handholding. The devs have received suggestions on how to improve those smaller issues in other ways.

- dont worry, they will probably discard those and go for a quest compass to make players like you happy and more relaxed, without any synapses firing off too much. Hurst the head.


Sorry, had to be done. Tough love and all that.
And i cant stand a player who calls to original Fallouts and even Goldbox games but then behaves and plays like that.


7. The Homestaed (space island) is an integral part of the story and many, many quests so... tough luck there. I guess it could have been introduced later but then a lot of things would need to remain unclear in the first part of the game.




- you will move the plot if you go to the upper western part of the map, not the lower western part where the Orcs are. Reading and exploring on your own are required in this game. Unlike W2.




- D:OS does not have to be great for you, or anyone else.
Its just that most of your critiques are not really ... real.
Youll find better ones as you play on.

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Ok, not going into discussion (you are all clever and I'm just a drone), but this:

"Yes, the game should kill you outright if you didnt even put a single point into perception and then went into a difficult higher level area that is mined and requires perception."

is a very poor game design decision, as it implies that I have to choose perception from the start in order to advance (without knowing it). Or, bash every inch of ground with fireballs (if I have a mage). Or, save/load to learn traps positions, but it's only remotely related to gaming, let alone to an rpg. Old-school ineed, though.

And this:

"his sentence actually means that all items in the game have a description."

No, they don't. In my version of the game, I only see a picture, a name and whether it's a quest item or not. I for one, prefer to read the description of an item, not only it's name.

OK, now on to my newer discoveries.

I understood, that in order to beat that big bad orc boss, I have to be the same level as him, or at least one level below. So it basically means, that I have to FARM for XP in order to advance, just like in your favourite WOW clone. Farming and grinding was the _last_ thing I expected from DOS, based on the recommendations I've received before.

Anyway, I went and searched for some random mobs. I've encountered 8th level burning undead. I perfectly know that I have to douse them with water and cold, but being at level 3 that helps little.

Ok, load game (again).

I go and find a band of 5th level undeads which are screaming that they are vulnerable to fire (how original). I've managed to deal some serious damage to their group, i even knew I could beat'em up at level 3 after loading ten or so times, but I just gave up. It's really boring, pointless and feels weird (at least for a drone that I am).

But, I am determined to finish the game, so I could at least criticize it properly (rarely have I seen a game with so many design flaws in one piece intertwined with good graphics and captivating plot).

So, where do I find mobs that match my level 3? I really don't care about spoilers anymore.


Last edited by egalor; 27/12/14 12:33 AM.
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The west gate of Cyseal (on top of the hill, not at the beach), which is located between the abandoned house and the mortuary. Just through theere is the level 3/4 starter area.

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No...

The game should kill you outright in that situation if you just try to walk through anyway, without even trying to think of another possible solution. That situation has several other solutions to that particular problem that are all reasonably easy to deduce.

The game gives you a wide assortment of tools and capabilities and options. One should try to think how to apply those to solve that incredibly easy "trap".
If one doesnt, then the game should kill him dead and keep on killing him over and over and over until he or she runs away crying... or starts thinking.

One of the beauties of this game is that it actually rewards thinking on your feet and coming up with solutions by inventing your own combinations of spells, skills, items, whatever you can interact with.



- That sentence actually means that all items in the game have descriptions - because it was written in a wrong way. Thats what that sentence means in english. Im assuming the writer isnt a native english speaker. Im not either btw. I was just sayin... Its not a biggy.

On top of that, i think that items in the game have sufficient descriptions. In reality.

oh wait its you... ok.




I already told you where to find enemies that you will be able to deal with. Upper western area.
Go through the open town gate thats to your left but in the upper part of the town. (there is also a small underground area under the town but i trust you already discovered that, as well as tonnes and tonnes of equipment, items, food, healing potions and sweet money, money, money you can liberate or otherwise appropriate for the purpose of the investigation)

That feeling you have, that sense of constipation in gameplay - is the result of how some mechanics work in the game, specifically all level difference based penalties that reduce chances to hit.
That has also been sent to the devs with specific suggestions and explanations. Hopefully they will do something about it in the near future.


Now, as you play longer and get to know all the details and all the options and tools at your disposal, you will start to take on enemies of higher level too. I can defeat those Orcs with lvl 3, for example, by fully using environment, specific spells, items and tactics, etc, etc.

But its not a gameplay thats really enjoyable. Its a struggle and a chore and it plays badly over longer time. It requires a lot of patience and reloads. And even so it doesnt feel organic at all. It feels as if you are cheesing the game.

Which is really a shame because the combat system is the best Turn based system ever designed in the history of cRPGs.

I tried to write a thread about it here on the forums but these forums dont really suport anything but random rubbish and dumbasses screaming about whatever falls onto their head.
Im totally fed up with it, but i saw your points - which are repeated often enough around here - so i thought to help a bit.



- edit -

btw, i agree that male character models are a bit too blocky but its a minor cosmetic detail. Making new models would probably mean adjusting all the armors to fit and probably other stuff too. If they can do it great, if not i dont mind.


and im white-ish too, in case you were wondering. I also needed to learn to jump.

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"The west gate of Cyseal (on top of the hill, not at the beach), which is located between the abandoned house and the mortuary. Just through theere is the level 3/4 starter area."

"I already told you where to find enemies that you will be able to deal with. Upper western area."

Ok, thank you, good sirs. BUT: upper (North) West area - *is* the beach with orcs which make me butthurt. Is there any other northwest out there? But ok, I will go through those gates, I promise smile

However, how was I supposed to deduce, which area contains enemies of my level *without save/load*? Really, please tell me. I never felt so stupid and kid-angry playing a crpg.

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The NW gate from within Cyseal itself. The NW gate that goes to the orcs is the gate in the harbor.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
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The gate behind the King Crab tavern is the only one not closed by default. All the other gates have a warning. For the south west gate, by the harbour, there are bodies all over the place when you leave, huge footprints, a comment from your main characters and a huge non-hostile orc, who can mention calling other orcs if you talk to him.

You can't necessarily tell all the time in advance what level or difficulty a group of opponents will be, but you do often see opponents in advance, and can scout ahead, or at least judge based on enemy number and composition.

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Originally Posted by egalor
However, how was I supposed to deduce, which area contains enemies of my level *without save/load*? Really, please tell me. I never felt so stupid and kid-angry playing a crpg.


You walk until you can barely see enemies in the distance, and you put your mouse cursor on top of them. You should be able to see their level well before getting into their sight range.

Hold Ctrl to see more stats (if you have points into Loremaster or items granting +Loremaster) and
The game is aimed towards the more hardcore old-school player, and it can be difficult to adjust to that mindset.

You getting confused about the right way to go is not unusual. It happened to many people during the beta as well.

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