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#567677 14/08/15 09:37 PM
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If you are a Linux User, Larian promised Linux Support for the first part in there kickstarter campain. It's "still" announced now but ot released... for me as a linux user, i skip this "backerround".

In generell, why is the kickstarter campain starting before the release of the enhanched edition ?

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Keep in mind that Kickstarter is not a pre-order system, and does not make games immune from the normal development process. Sometimes things take longer than expected, and if expectations are off enough it can be much longer.

The Linux version is still coming, it is a native port not a Wine package, and anyone who back the D:OS Kickstarter for the Linux version and found the delay unacceptable could get a refund.


I wasn't involved in deciding the timing of the Kickstarter, but presumably it would benefit both having the D:OS 2 Kickstarter during the lead up to the Enhanced Edition release. PAX Prime is at the end of August, as well.
For the most part it isn't the same set of people working on both games, so there isn't actually a need to wait for one to release before starting a Kickstarter for the other.

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Kickstarter isn't a pre-order, I get that. However they are ready to make a new set of promises before fulfilling the last set.


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And? The Linux version will be released about the end of October. The D:OS 2 Kickstarter will not interfere with or delay the D:OS EE release. If people do not find the explanation for the situation with the Linux version acceptable, they can choose not to back D:OS 2.

Plans and goals are not promises, just like a game is not a feature list. There were features with D:OS that were changed, expanded and cut back due to feedback or just simply things not working out as anticipated (like the mega dungeon being cut up, some levels dropped and the rest used in other locations). The normal development process commonly involves features being cut, and sometimes platforms or localizations, etc.

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i do not care much about linux (though a very good OS!)
none the less i get your argument, b/c the same holds true for day/night cycle (which i care a lot about). actually even more so b/c this feature will never make it to D:OS - not even in the enhanced edition.

BUT they were very vocal in terms of what/why/who/etc.
they did not just skip a feature, they told us their reasons. and this i do very much appreciate and - at least for me - calms the waves very much, b/c: of course: do not promise what cannot be kept; but on the other hand: the first who can forecast/predict the future: please, apply for the job! things change and shit happens. thats life after all and not some kind of computer rpg ...

also in the linux case: they will deliver. slightly different and certainly not on time (but hey ... they are larian. they have their own reckoning of time and date :hihi: ) but you will get it. which kind of counters your argument.

Last edited by 4verse; 16/08/15 05:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by Raze

And? The Linux version will be released about the end of October. The D:OS 2 Kickstarter will not interfere with or delay the D:OS EE release. If people do not find the explanation for the situation with the Linux version acceptable, they can choose not to back D:OS 2.

Plans and goals are not promises, just like a game is not a feature list. There were features with D:OS that were changed, expanded and cut back due to feedback or just simply things not working out as anticipated (like the mega dungeon being cut up, some levels dropped and the rest used in other locations). The normal development process commonly involves features being cut, and sometimes platforms or localizations, etc.


I'm sorry Raze, but you're just being unreasonably defensive. Larian messed up and now they have a bunch of annoyed Linux users calling them out on it. I'm quite willing to cut Larian *a lot* of slack since they've always been very open with us (the backers) in a way no other development studio has been but that doesn't mean I choose to be blind to mistakes that were made. You can't just try to brush this of as "development happens", because no, it does not (this is a "planning" issue, not development). And saying that "things can change, deal with it" is borderline insulting, this isn't just a feature of the game being cut, this is the entire game being unavailable to some people.

Larian simply tried to cut corners by focusing on the Windows version first and "porting later", that almost never works out (the other way around would probably have been way less problematic though), I'm sure they learned from that mistake but I'd still say Linux using backers have every right to be pretty damn annoyed and frankly I'd also have greatly preferred seeingplaying at least a beta of the Linux version before they launched another KS (*hint*).

Personally I just played the game on Windows*, however, I would never have pledged as much as I did if they hadn't promised a Linux version and since they still haven't followed through on that promise I'm seriously wondering if I should pledge this time around and whether, if I would do so (which is likely, unless they don't even promise a Linux version this time around) it will be anywhere near the order of magnitude of my D:OS pledge (far less likely, unless they promise a simultaneous release on all platforms, though if they then fail to deliver on this in a big way I'll be all out of goodwill).

*for now (also the only thing I use Windows for), given all the privacy concerns with Windows 10 I doubt I want to install that thing even on a machine only used for playing games.

Last edited by theBlackDragon; 18/08/15 10:47 PM.

* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Well, development 'does happen', and thing 'get cut'. If you ever worked at a place that develops software, you would know.

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Larian messed up by not communicating early enough about the deal with Linux. It sucks for those users that it's gotten delayed this much, but I think at this point they've done the best they can. You can get a refund, they've apologized, and it's being released for the EE. It would make no sense for them to release D:OS AND the EE as a linux version. I'm not sure what else they should do? They shouldn't delay the KS just to appease 3% of their customers. (And really, would delaying the KS till after the EE really make Linux users feel any better? There'd the same delay. I suppose Linux users would finally get to play the game and might be a bit more inclined to go for D:OS2 if they knew Linux would be there from the get go, but I dunno.)

Maybe a nice gesture would be to release the EE for Linux a couple days before the other versions, though I could see that not really making sense financially either. It'd invariably annoy non-Linux users. Another idea might be to offer a discount for linux users who pledged for D:OS who want to pledge for D:OS2, but I'm not sure how easy that'd be to verify? I assume you ticked some kind of "linux" box or something for the OS you wanted D:OS for.

Heck, if Larian really wanted to make it up for Linux users, they'd offer D:OS2 to them for free. That'd really be a sign of good character, though their investors might not like that idea.

Last edited by Baardvark; 19/08/15 04:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by Haleseen
Well, development 'does happen', and thing 'get cut'. If you ever worked at a place that develops software, you would know.


As it happens, I'm a senior developer, doing mostly middleware development. (how ironic, right?)

It might have helped if you actually read the post instead of trying to be witty.


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Originally Posted by Baardvark
Larian messed up by not communicating early enough about the deal with Linux. It sucks for those users that it's gotten delayed this much, but I think at this point they've done the best they can. You can get a refund, they've apologized, and it's being released for the EE. It would make no sense for them to release D:OS AND the EE as a linux version. I'm not sure what else they should do? They shouldn't delay the KS just to appease 3% of their customers. (And really, would delaying the KS till after the EE really make Linux users feel any better? There'd the same delay. I suppose Linux users would finally get to play the game and might be a bit more inclined to go for D:OS2 if they knew Linux would be there from the get go, but I dunno.)

Maybe a nice gesture would be to release the EE for Linux a couple days before the other versions, though I could see that not really making sense financially either. It'd invariably annoy non-Linux users. Another idea might be to offer a discount for linux users who pledged for D:OS who want to pledge for D:OS2, but I'm not sure how easy that'd be to verify? I assume you ticked some kind of "linux" box or something for the OS you wanted D:OS for.

Heck, if Larian really wanted to make it up for Linux users, they'd offer D:OS2 to them for free. That'd really be a sign of good character, though their investors might not like that idea.


I don't take issue with the fact that Larian is running late (though the why of it, maybe, but the details are so spotty that that's guesswork to say the least), I take issue with the way Raze (and some others) are trying to downplay the concerns some have.

Imho they should make sure the Linux EE (or a beta of it) is out before the D:OS2 KS. Announcing the new KS before making sure previous promises have been fulfilled was, imho, already a very bad move marketing wise.


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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So basically, with the D:OS 2 Kickstarter, every other factor should be ignored except the Linux version of D:OS? No mater what benefits could be expected starting it now, and no matter what conflicts or problems there could be with a delay, a separate group of people working on a different game should just wait?
If there weren't a target release date for the Linux version, and it wasn't fairly soon, you might have a point. As it is, the D:OS 2 Kickstarter is not going to delay the EE release, and delaying the Kickstarter would not speed up the EE release.


Planning is part of development. And yes, that is where the issues with Linux started, as described by Lar in a forum post some time ago (a topic which you posted in).
Rather than paraphrase my post incorrectly to label it as "borderline insulting" you could try addressing the content. Or ignore it; either way isn't going to change anything at this point.

Larian did not try to "cut corners". It was explicitly the plan from the very beginning to start the Linux version after the Mac version was finished, and development of the Mac version had been halted and only resumed once the Kickstarter reached its funding goal. At the time Larian wasn't sure if the Mac version would catch up by the game's release. Being up to that point a Windows only developer, Larian was of course focused on the Windows version, and never claimed otherwise.

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Let's be clear before I start this, all I'm doing here is expressing my worry about how this entire thing reflects on Larian as a company, because I think they make damn good games, appear to be a damn fine bunch of gentlemen and I'd love for them to get all the support they can possibly get.

Originally Posted by Raze

So basically, with the D:OS 2 Kickstarter, every other factor should be ignored except the Linux version of D:OS? No mater what benefits could be expected starting it now, and no matter what conflicts or problems there could be with a delay, a separate group of people working on a different game should just wait?
If there weren't a target release date for the Linux version, and it wasn't fairly soon, you might have a point. As it is, the D:OS 2 Kickstarter is not going to delay the EE release, and delaying the Kickstarter would not speed up the EE release.


I, personally, have faith that they *will* eventually deliver that version, however one can hardly expect people to have that much faith in a company in an age where broken promises or just plain bullshit marketing are the norm rather than the exception. Most people are blissfully unaware that Larian has come pretty close to bankruptcy chasing their dreams on multiple occasions.

Moreover I think you can agree that *not* having delivered a pretty major part (unless you agree that support for an entire platform is not a "pretty major part") of their previous KS before launching a new one is not exactly going to reflect on them in a positive way. Whether finishing that up first or not is technically feasible is not something most people will give a damn about, the only thing the "general public" sees is "did not deliver x, as promised" (there's still lots of people unhappy about the day/night cycle too, and that, in comparison, was a minor setback, at least in my book).

Originally Posted by Raze
Planning is part of development. And yes, that is where the issues with Linux started, as described by Lar in a forum post some time ago (a topic which you posted in).
Rather than paraphrase my post incorrectly to label it as "borderline insulting" you could try addressing the content. Or ignore it; either way isn't going to change anything at this point.


Saying that they are owed nothing because KS is not a contract which is basically saying that they have no right to expect anything and that if they do not like it they can go take a hike. *That* is what I was referring to, it feels like you are downplaying their concerns and I think people have every right to be disappointed in how things turned out (and to voice that concern). It won't magically make the problem go away, but nobody said that it would.

I don't see how anyone here is asking for anything unreasonable either, unless you mean that the Linux version isn't even in a beta-able state yet, which might actually be cause for concern with a release date set two and a half months from now.

Originally Posted by Raze
Larian did not try to "cut corners". It was explicitly the plan from the very beginning to start the Linux version after the Mac version was finished, and development of the Mac version had been halted and only resumed once the Kickstarter reached its funding goal. At the time Larian wasn't sure if the Mac version would catch up by the game's release. Being up to that point a Windows only developer, Larian was of course focused on the Windows version, and never claimed otherwise.


I mean that not developing multiple platforms in parallel is "cutting corners" as that's the right way to do it if you're committed to delivering on those platforms. But, as I've stated in another forum, doing this is *hard* so what I said is a statement of fact and not meant as an insult (and my sincere apologies if it came over as such).


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Let's be clear before I start this, all I'm doing here is expressing my worry about how this entire thing reflects on Larian as a company

Fair enough. I'm trying to provide facts so people reading the topic unfamiliar with the D:OS Kickstarter can make an informed decision about the opinions expressed.


Moreover I think you can agree that *not* having delivered a pretty major part

That depends; can you agree that not delivering it yet is different than not delivering it at all?


is not exactly going to reflect on them in a positive way

I think most people will be fine with it, actually, given the fact that the Linux version will be released in a couple months, and knowing that refunds were offered to D:OS Kickstarter backers who were unhappy with the delay, and that there were reasons for the delay.


"did not deliver x, as promised"

And they will also see 'release date in 2 months', and most gamers are at least passably familiar with the development process, where games are often delayed, sometimes by years, and can also be cancelled outright.


(there's still lots of people unhappy about the day/night cycle too, and that, in comparison, was a minor setback, at least in my book).

Some people that pledged specifically for that may think that not getting something at all is more serious than a delay getting what was backed for.


Saying that they are owed nothing because KS is not a contract which is basically saying that they have no right to expect anything and that if they do not like it they can go take a hike. *That* is what I was referring to

Your paraphrasing is getting even more inaccurate. I was specifically addressing the use of the word promise, which is apparently suppose to prevent any unforeseen problems from occurring or make the intervening circumstances irrelevant.


I mean that not developing multiple platforms in parallel is "cutting corners" as that's the right way to do it if you're committed to delivering on those platforms.

Larian didn't have the resources to develop for multiple platforms the 'right way'.
I didn't take that as an insult, but the way it was phrased it sounded like you were saying Larian was promising more during the Kickstarter and then moved Linux to the back burner once it was over.

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Originally Posted by Raze

Let's be clear before I start this, all I'm doing here is expressing my worry about how this entire thing reflects on Larian as a company

Fair enough. I'm trying to provide facts so people reading the topic unfamiliar with the D:OS Kickstarter can make an informed decision about the opinions expressed.


Moreover I think you can agree that *not* having delivered a pretty major part

That depends; can you agree that not delivering it yet is different than not delivering it at all?


You are right of course, not yet (which is what I meant, albeit not what I wrote, mea culpa), though insofar the D:OS2 campaign is concerned there is very little difference, people that have been waiting for a year and a half (not everyone has a Windows system available, which for some reason is very hard for most to grasp) are far less likely to pledge again this time, if only because they only know D:OS to be any good by reading about it.

I mean, you can hardly blame people for not wanting to pledge for a sequel when they haven't even had the chance the experience the original game! I think that's a shame, if nothing else.

Originally Posted by Raze

is not exactly going to reflect on them in a positive way

I think most people will be fine with it, actually, given the fact that the Linux version will be released in a couple months, and knowing that refunds were offered to D:OS Kickstarter backers who were unhappy with the delay, and that there were reasons for the delay.

"did not deliver x, as promised"

And they will also see 'release date in 2 months', and most gamers are at least passably familiar with the development process, where games are often delayed, sometimes by years, and can also be cancelled outright.


While true, Linux users are kind of used to getting the short end of the stick, especially those that have been around for a while, and, while they might be fully aware of the realities of development and market demand that doesn't mean there won't be some major disappointment for not being able to experience a game they helped fund before the sequels funding round begins.

Originally Posted by Raze

(there's still lots of people unhappy about the day/night cycle too, and that, in comparison, was a minor setback, at least in my book).

Some people that pledged specifically for that may think that not getting something at all is more serious than a delay getting what was backed for.


A year and a half is an insanely long delay to not be able to play a game you've been looking forward to. (also, I'm a Linux user and I'd *really* have loved day/night cycles, woe is me ;))

Originally Posted by Raze

Saying that they are owed nothing because KS is not a contract which is basically saying that they have no right to expect anything and that if they do not like it they can go take a hike. *That* is what I was referring to

Your paraphrasing is getting even more inaccurate. I was specifically addressing the use of the word promise, which is apparently suppose to prevent any unforeseen problems from occurring or make the intervening circumstances irrelevant.


OK, in that case I misinterpreted your words. I don't think I would be the only one though.

Originally Posted by Raze

I mean that not developing multiple platforms in parallel is "cutting corners" as that's the right way to do it if you're committed to delivering on those platforms.

Larian didn't have the resources to develop for multiple platforms the 'right way'.
I didn't take that as an insult, but the way it was phrased it sounded like you were saying Larian was promising more during the Kickstarter and then moved Linux to the back burner once it was over.


No, we knew Linux support was coming later, but I'm sure a year and a half wasn't what most people had in mind.

I'm also pretty confident that their early lack of resources (by which I assume people, not money) has ended up costing them more in the end, which is a bummer, they could have improved the game instead (again, you can't just conjure qualified people from thin air, so no harm meant, just an observation)


* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

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Originally Posted by theBlackDragon
Originally Posted by Haleseen
Well, development 'does happen', and thing 'get cut'. If you ever worked at a place that develops software, you would know.


As it happens, I'm a senior developer, doing mostly middleware development. (how ironic, right?)

It might have helped if you actually read the post instead of trying to be witty.

My ability to read, think, and act is generally influenced by my mood.

Not having been medicated for 8 months and being bi-polar tends to leave me with shit like this to clean up.

So apologies for the... 'witty' response.

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Originally Posted by theBlackDragon
No, we knew Linux support was coming later, but I'm sure a year and a half wasn't what most people had in mind.


To be fair, it wasn't what Larian had in mind, either. They're not entirely blameless, as they assumed the existence of middleware that ended up not existing, but it was definitely not an intentional delay (I'm not saying you're claiming that, just clarifying it).


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