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#568622 05/09/15 04:46 PM
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A few qns to ask:

1) Will they be able to enter Hall of Echoes

2) Can they communicate with the dead or possibly, even raise the dead(if circumstances are right)?

I suspect people will become suspicious or even terrified, once they find out you're a sentient skeleton. After all, you could be the Black Ring's lackey soo... might be hard to get around town.

So, I hope for some masquerading to do, as part of your disguise. :P Or at least some illusionary spells.

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Undead character should be able to enter the Hall of Echoes. Based on the lore you could design it either way, so I think gameplay has the deciding vote.

All player characters can communicate with the dead, at least the ones still around as ghosts. Undead may have extra abilities in that regard, depending on what is done for their racial traits.

There will need to be a disguise used in towns, so people don't flee or attack.

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Hmmm, I hope "speaking with the dead" for an undead character = better communication. You never know what some of them are hiding from the living 'cos they don't 100% trust them! laugh

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A party made of dwarves and undead are gonna have a hard time getting around rivellon lol.

I love the idea of speaking with the dead as a skill, I also thought about resistance to cold and piercing damage but weak to fire and crushing. Y'know like a regular ol' skeleton.

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If anyone is okay reading translated novels, there is a very good japanese web novel where the main character is also an undead game character; very good inspiration for undead skills/looks!! The novel is called "OVERLORD", and you can essentially google and it'll come up!! (it was the deciding factor when i saw undead starting option became available)

If anyone on the dev. team is reading this; PLEASE look it up for inspirations for potential skills/looks!! (Long live Ainz Ooal Gown!!)

(I'm not sure if it'd be overpowered, but a skill tree based on death skills/necromancy etc?)
Really, Look it up, and give it a read!!

Keep up the good work!! =]

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Originally Posted by "Ken Mencher"
cannibalism sounds like a fun racial skill for the undead, instead of giving it to lizards...


I agree with this suggestion, that seems like it would be a far, far, better fit than with Lizards.

***

I also don't really think that a constant HP drain - even if it is only to 80% of your max HP is a very good idea. Isn't this a game which has a lot of places to explore and a lot of people to talk to? Adding a drain effect like that would discourage Undead players from exploring or talking to people.

This is not an action hack + slash where you should be constantly moving forward and attacking, which means that a drain completely counters any possible benefits from starting with +20% HP in the first place! How worthless!

I'll post more feedback later when I think of more things.

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Hmmm, maybe some battle power like Commune with the dead/Chorus of to create a magical protective circle which starts with 5% to 10% and added bonuses against undead. Arrows of bone will pierce anyone who steps close and 10% to 20% damage will be converted into hp boost.

Originally Posted by Sluntchop
A party made of dwarves and undead are gonna have a hard time getting around rivellon lol.

I love the idea of speaking with the dead as a skill, I also thought about resistance to cold and piercing damage but weak to fire and crushing. Y'know like a regular ol' skeleton.


I'm gonna suggest... maybe there'll be people willing to get you through, as long you get what they want or for a sum of "kaching". laugh That or you might have to navigate the dark alleys,sewers, abandoned houses, etc. and spend your time hiding in them. Or cast illusionary magic on yourselves to change your identities.

Fun identities: parents with a bunch of children (lol...)

Nun or monk trying to lead a bunch of people into safety


Last edited by DrunkenTofu; 07/09/15 07:50 AM.
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I think it's rather important to keep the undead Source addicted in one way or another. Being dependent on consuming others' soul/life energy in order to sustain yourself adds a whole new gameplay dynamic and a whole new dimension for roleplaying. And no, it's not the same as being a dark sourcerer and consuming bodies or ghosts to replenish your power. Restoring your (un)life is a far more vital necessity, and a far better justification for preying on others, which makes it much more morally ambiguous and thus much more interesting.

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It might have a good lore justification, but I think that a constant health drain just does not fit the exploration and talking-based gameplay of Original Sin 2 at all.

A different way to represent Source Addiction would be better. Hmmm... How about this, just a quick idea off the top of my head:

Source Addiction (Passive): Undead get a +1 Bonus to all attributes when their Source Points are full. When their source points are not full, Undead slowly become more vulnerable to damage over time, up to a maximum of -50%. The fewer Source Points they have, the faster their resistances tick down. They immediately lose this penalty upon acquiring a Source Point. After losing a Source Point, it takes 30 rounds/180 seconds/3 minutes before the damage vulnerability starts to take hold. (That's STARTS - so that's three minutes of normal play before the withdrawl kicks in.)

Thus, the undead are encouraged to keep Source Points, and they have a harder choice about when it's worthwhile to spend a precious Source Point, but the effects are not the same. It's not +20% which drains back down to normal, cancelling itself out.

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I'm not sure what would be more detrimental in combat, though; -20% max health or -50% damage resistance. I may be mistaken, but it seems that the latter option penalizes the character even harder, while lacking the former one's sense of urgency and need.
Besides, wouldn't the +1 attribute bonus suffer from the same problems as the +20% health bonus: namely, wouldn't it wear off before it can come into play while you're exploring or talking to other characters?

... and please, if anyone from Larian is reading this, keep the Soul Devourer ability. :D

/sorry for the misspellings, I'm trying my best to get rid of them.

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Mechanic like cadaver at divinity 2:
Undead's can collect parts of body from the corpses.
But has lowest base stats (all stats they'll get from combinations of body/head/arms/legs/nails(why anyone needs this stupid sword?) ).
They also can wear others gear, like helmet/armor/swords/bows/etc.
''Look at this dead guy body!
It's so fat, so i shouldn't worry about arrows and close distance weapon. And no one freeze me too easy. But i can't dodge anything! And fire! This fat body too flammable!
And this archer hands! Yes, this strong long hands! I'll be best archer in Riv...
Or i should take this strong warrior hands. And his legs. Yes, his strong muscles legs.
And this mage head. May be his magick hands with strange runes on them.''

Last edited by Kirk; 07/09/15 05:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
It might have a good lore justification, but I think that a constant health drain just does not fit the exploration and talking-based gameplay of Original Sin 2 at all.

A different way to represent Source Addiction would be better. Hmmm... How about this, just a quick idea off the top of my head:

Source Addiction (Passive): Undead get a +1 Bonus to all attributes when their Source Points are full. When their source points are not full, Undead slowly become more vulnerable to damage over time, up to a maximum of -50%. The fewer Source Points they have, the faster their resistances tick down. They immediately lose this penalty upon acquiring a Source Point. After losing a Source Point, it takes 30 rounds/180 seconds/3 minutes before the damage vulnerability starts to take hold. (That's STARTS - so that's three minutes of normal play before the withdrawl kicks in.)

Thus, the undead are encouraged to keep Source Points, and they have a harder choice about when it's worthwhile to spend a precious Source Point, but the effects are not the same. It's not +20% which drains back down to normal, cancelling itself out.


Maybe it's me but I really dislike the idea of micro-managing every few secs/mins, depending on the circumstances and penalties. After all, there may also be areas cut off from the Source and spells doing damage to your Source points. The idea of having to reload or run back to a Source area very often if there's something off-balance, doesn't sound very appealing to me. After all, if the Source Points hit 0, they cease to exist, right?

If the devs tweak your suggestion to fit the system so you can still recover and you don't have to micro-manage like allowing players to bank Source Points in the form of potions, etc., then maybe it's doable? Or maybe we've a device that acts like a bank with interest rates.

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Originally Posted by Xarico
I'm not sure what would be more detrimental in combat, though; -20% max health or -50% damage resistance. I may be mistaken, but it seems that the latter option penalizes the character even harder, while lacking the former one's sense of urgency and need.
Besides, wouldn't the +1 attribute bonus suffer from the same problems as the +20% health bonus: namely, wouldn't it wear off before it can come into play while you're exploring or talking to other characters?

... and please, if anyone from Larian is reading this, keep the Soul Devourer ability. laugh

/sorry for the misspellings, I'm trying my best to get rid of them.


Well, the damage resistance numbers could be changed, but the visible constant tick of the health bar going down discourages exploration and roleplaying, which is not at all a desirable outcome for this kind of game.

Plus, since the only bonus is +20% to Max HP, and playing normally, talking to NPC's and exploring will drain the bonus back down to where it was before the +20%, that effectively means that the bonus doesn't exist at all (especially at the worst possible time, the start of a combat encounter).

Sure, there may be "ways" to replenish it, but I can pretty much guarantee you that a constant maintenance required to keep HP up is busywork that'll be more likely to produce a sense of annoyance in players, not a sense of roleplaying.

EDIT: And the +1 Bonus is a CONSTANT effect as long as you have a Source Point. It doesn't degrade until you spend the Source Point.



Originally Posted by DrunkenTofu

Maybe it's me but I really dislike the idea of micro-managing every few secs/mins, depending on the circumstances and penalties. After all, there may also be areas cut off from the Source and spells doing damage to your Source points. The idea of having to reload or run back to a Source area very often if there's something off-balance, doesn't sound very appealing to me. After all, if the Source Points hit 0, they cease to exist, right?


Uh, did you watch the previews and videos?

Source Points are those rare-ish and special things which you can usually only have one of at a time, and you spend them on high-powered spells. I don't think there will be any "cut-off from Source" areas, and definitely not any "You lose your hard-gained source point arbitrarily lol" regions. I said Source Point(s) because it was implied that you could get more than 1 (and I'm thinking of making a suggestion to have the Undead Race start with a capacity of 2 Source Points instead of 1, because of their Source Dependence).


Quote
If the devs tweak your suggestion to fit the system so you can still recover and you don't have to micro-manage like allowing players to bank Source Points in the form of potions, etc., then maybe it's doable? Or maybe we've a device that acts like a bank with interest rates.


Again, that was in the previews. They have "Blood stones", which can hold a charge which restores a Source Point, and there are ways to recharge Blood Stones or acquire Source points another way.

Last edited by Stabbey; 07/09/15 05:32 PM. Reason: edit
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IIRC, you'll only have 1 source point for most of the game, possibly 2 near the end. So most people will usually have 0 source points as they use their skills.

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@Stabbey:

Sorry, I was in severe lack of sleep when I posted my reply. I'll try to rest some more and post a better answer later.

Stabbey #568761 08/09/15 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Stabbey

Well, the damage resistance numbers could be changed, but the visible constant tick of the health bar going down discourages exploration and roleplaying, which is not at all a desirable outcome for this kind of game.

Plus, since the only bonus is +20% to Max HP, and playing normally, talking to NPC's and exploring will drain the bonus back down to where it was before the +20%, that effectively means that the bonus doesn't exist at all (especially at the worst possible time, the start of a combat encounter).

Sure, there may be "ways" to replenish it, but I can pretty much guarantee you that a constant maintenance required to keep HP up is busywork that'll be more likely to produce a sense of annoyance in players, not a sense of roleplaying.

EDIT: And the +1 Bonus is a CONSTANT effect as long as you have a Source Point. It doesn't degrade until you spend the Source Point.

I thought about it and compared it to several other games with similar mechanics which I really enjoyed. Perhaps, indeed, it may be not the HP, but something else that would keep diminishing if you don't consume Source energy. The two main problems I see here is time and Source points availability in general. First, the debuffs should take considerable time to kick in, an hour or so at the very least, so you're not pressed into constantly seeking a way to replenish your SP. Second, I'm not sure how easy it will be to acquire Source points. "Having only one at a time" and "being able to restore your SP by consuming corpses and ghosts" don't really fit together. The idea of Source dependency further suggests that it should be relatively easy to acquire at least some Source on a regular basis. So, which one is it?

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Hallo, those are my suggestions for undead:

- You can select what undead you are. This means you are an undead human, undead elf, undead dwarf, . . . and so on. This determines your look and the base stats are the same as this race. You do not get any racial abilities of your race that require metabolism (like lizards like it hot and dislike cold) but maybe they keep some others (lizards keep their tail, sorry I cannot think of examples for "normal" races). If undead are able to hide the fact that they are undead, they appear as this race to others (like an undead elf looks like a normal elf). I am not an expert for this universe, but in most fantasy worlds undead belonged to a "normal race" before becoming undead.

- Undead have stats (like constitution) like any other race. It makes no sense to make a different attribute system for 1 race.

-undead racial skills:
+ they are immun to several status effects (poison, bleed, whatever makes sense when you have no metabolism
+ They can drain health from other living creatures (people and animals, no undead or elementals)
+they can infect others with disease with a melee attack
- Healing effects harm them. They can only heal themselves with drain abilities or things like leech. Maybe there are healing items and spells but there is a cost (like they need more AP, or they cause also a negative effect or they are rare and work only for undead)
- most people react negative on undead. You have to do something to keep up your disguise (like drinking blood?)

-special source ability:
soul eater: you absorb energy from all creatures X meters around you. It will damage them and heal you. It works on all types of creatures, though some may have some damage resistance. If you kill an enemy with this skill, you get a temporary bonus. Using this skill makes you more evil. (When I think about it, this sound a bit generic and it looks overpowered if you can use it often. This was inspired by Mask of the Betrayer.)

Edit: I have an idea: When you use healing items or spells that can heal undead, you loose your disguise and everybody will see that you are undead.

Last edited by Madscientist; 08/09/15 01:10 PM.

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