Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General Item scaling, randomization and you.

Since we don't have a dedicated topic about this I'm creating one.

Randomization will completely obliterate item design.

You might have noticed that Larian games tend to have quite a few random items with affixes and suffixes alla ARPGs. These items also tend to scale with your level. And there begins the rollercoaster of problems. It's more of an avalanche really.

Raze pretty much confirmed we are going to get more unique items, both in the EE and 2 over at the Codex, so that's a good starting point. Unique items help with exploration a lot and they can be memorable cornerstones of your adventures if some creativity (lore, set-up, memorable boss etc.) is put into them. They can also be used to plan builds ahead of time on subsequent playthroughs when you know where you can find them. That's good. We also know we are going to get random items. Here comes the problem - the level scaling of said items. I'm going to attempt a slippery slope argument and those are tricky, so bear with me.

a) We care about exploration
b) We care about well-designed and memorable items
c) We care about character progression
d) This is a finite game (i.e. no farming)

1. Level scaling insures all items will have level requirements. This is bad because it railroads character progression and it feels contrived and gamey. They also can't stash high quality items (like Ankheg Plate) in the beginning of the game. They could, but it wouldn't matter.

2. Given enough levels, random items will trump uniques in every possible way. Low level uniques will be trivial and they will only pay lip service to exploration. If they don't have level requirements they would be designed in such a way as to not make random items pointless. I.e. weak. This is a design oxymoron that clashes very badly.

3. If uniques are level scaled then the game actively punishes you for getting them at low levels. I don't think I need to explain why this is bad design.

4. This clash between uniques and level scaled items destroys any kind of coherent itemization and plateau's item-based character progression. You just change the items you have with the "new model" every few levels. This is boring and misses the point of items. We aren't playing Barbie's Dress-up.

The main argument I can think of for pro scaling of items is that it will ensure items for every possible build you can think of. I counter this with crafting. Customizable craft items comparable to uniques can be put in to ensure crafting is not pointless, but they shouldn't be level scaled. Just comparable to uniques. They should have some restriction on the customization bit, though, to not completely nullify uniques, just complement them.

Discuss, I guess? Pick apart my arguments, convince me of my wrongness. I may have missed something and if it comes up in the discussion I'll address it.

I have mixed feelings about this:

1.) I think that generic names like "blooded plate of water" are not very impressive in an epic RPG. The fact that weapons with a higher level than you cost more AP was also bad, but with less AP in D:OS2 it would not work anyway. It feels strange that normal weapons are better than epic weapons whose level is a bit lower. But I am not completely against randomness because:

2.) When every magic can be found in a fixed position it reduces the replay value for me. The extreme example is BG2. I know the position of most magic items and dungeons (and the order in which you do them) become a shopping list instead of exploration. I gets worse when some items are very powerful. You want to be a paladin in BG2? Then you should spend all points in greatsword plus 2h style (+ a ranged weapon). A mage will aim for the staff of magi. Fail of ages and mace of disruption are other examples for game breaking weapons. And the game throws magic items at you from the very beginning (chaos sword+2, Lilarcor). ToB throws so many epic items at you that epic becomes boring.
In the PoE forums I dislike that many people post chars that are only useful with certain special items (like retaliation) and how to get them as early as possible. I like it when the game has a certain element of surprise. You find something that you did not expect when you play the game a second time.

my suggestions:
- Epic items may have properties that do not exist on other items. This way they feel more epic.
- A mix of both systems. Some magic items can be found in fixed positions so you can be sure you find something useful for your char. But there is also a chance to find magic items randomly. At least some of the randomly found items may be hand crafted (= finding is random but stats/descriptions are not)
- Get rid of item levels. In areas with enemies, these enemies have a certain level. Towns are surrounded with enemies of a certain level. This is enough to know how strong the items in this area should be. If your char can find it and has the requirements (like stat value) he should be able to use it.
- In term of immersion: If you can see that an enemy fights with a certain type of weapon or armor he should drop such things (if he drops something at all.) This means if you fight an orc in plate armor and a huge axe, he should not drop a leather armor and a dagger.

PS: I disliked that all sarongs in D:OS1 were dependent on int. My warrior and archer were unable to use good ones. (I did not play the newest version of D:OS)

Forget about subsequent playthroughs, they need to make the first playthrough not be awful. :p It's also easier to plan builds around items when you know where they are on multiple playthroughs. They could also make items unique to a second, third and so forth playthroughs. But the static uniques should always be found in the same place.

The problem is the level scaling of the random items, though, not exploration or playthroughs. Randomization is rationalized on too many shaky grounds that I don't think hold up AND they mess up not only the balance between them and uniques, but also the balance of the game. It's far easier to balance around non-random items. I thought DA:O had this right, btw.

As I have written, the power (or level) of an item should be dependant on the area where you find it, not on your own level.

If items are random or not is less important for the first playthrough than for later playthroughs. If you play it the first time you do not know what you will find anyway. Unless you read guides before you play the game (I do not advise this. I like to be surprized).

I just place a link to this old thread here


Yeah D:OS is a game and one choice is no choice unless it does exclude other pathways. If you include drawbacks into your itemizations in order to reduce hard restrictions at all costs you will end up heavily relying on balance. (remember PoE). D:OS found a way how to (really situationally) turn itemization into a game that rewards smart play.

Your last sentence is one way out of your #2 and #3. Let uniques be like collectibles/sets that you will find on the course of the game and you can unlock their power at the end of the game/when you have all of them (+ some generous requirements).

Also #3 is a false dichotomy. If you were to find a unique early game it is either overpowered or doomed to be replaced. Or it dooms the rest of the game to have loot of no better quality - which clashes with game progression, obviously.



You are basically saying that every item within the game should be unique if you even consider equipping them. Everything else is a placeholder for gold.
Or do you say the opposite? At least you exclude any inbetween. (Isn't how the strength of items is distributed independent of the system?)

ToB made everything very unique and their item description went from 1.5-2.x pages to 5 lines for each item.
"Whoever invented the Ring of the Ram invented this godly Staff+6"

A truly unique item is not primarily stronger than other loot. It is unique up to a point you did not expect it to be in the game. You did not expect that you would even want it. Surprise your audience, which you cannot do after strongly grounded intervals. Lilarcor won't do it ...again.

Crafting has the same problem. If you find enough items to reliably craft your gear it does not matter what you find. You just externate genericism from items onto ingredients and this then sticks back onto items. Baudolino's crafting system was really good (thread above as you know). It allows for multiple nearly independent ways of gear progression. I cannot imagine if it holds it's promises but they are good.

As a dedicated poker player I really liked that in order to maximise your gear, you could juggle around with them and predict which items you will most likely replace, so you can use as many skills+items+AP as possible.
It obviously does not work if you do not have any dire attribute needs. Then I can understand random loot is really dull.

That is a form of level scaling though. The Ankheg Plate was found hidden in the first village in Baldur's Gate. It was one of the best, if not THE best, heavy armor in the game. In a level 2 zone. That dynamic would be lost if items scaled with the level of the zone. Generally the Ankheg Plate is an exception and the further you go in the game the more powerful items you get. That's normal, but the Ankheg Plate was a nice surprise. Also the Gauntlets of Ogre Power are found placed in a mid-level zone, but they are the best strength gauntlets in the game etc. The "level of the zone" shouldn't be evident in any way, otherwise it's gamey and breaks the fourth wall.

I suppose, but they wouldn't have the bite of the Ankheg Plate :p

How is it a false dichotomy though? If uniques scale, then it punishes you for getting them early. There is no way around that if they scale. There is nothing wrong with not having any items more powerful than this. Like I said, we don't need to change items constantly to feel progression.


Yes, I suppose. Though "unique" isn't the right word. Not-random is a better one. DA:O did this well I feel.

ToB threw epics at you, though. That is one of the design flaws of high level D&D.


That is true, but it concerns the lore and surprise factor of the items rather than the mechanics of them.


That is the one of the main points (that I forgot to mention), that random loot is boring.

The thread you linked is mostly directed at crafting, though. It didn't concern itself with the overall mechanics of random vs unique items.

Putting the best armor in the first town was bad design, I think.

In most cases BG1 and IWD1 were very good in how they gave you items.
It felt important when you finally could find/afford your first longsword+1.
You gained power rather slowly and each step made you feel stronger.

My favourite games regarding world exploration were Gothic1+2 and Risen1.
You could go anywhere right from the start (except some areas owned by some fractions).
But in the beginning you are so weak that a lone wolf is a big danger to you.
You could kill a troll at lv1. But you had to poke it with a wooden stick for 1h without being hit.
I have played only D:OS so far, but I think the other Larian games went in the same direction.

Combining everything above:
You can find a good armor at the very beginning. But you must sneak past lots of enemies that can kill you with a single hit. If you can kill or avoid powerful enemies, then you have earned good equipment. But putting the best armor in the first town is just cheap.

You really couldn't know it was there unless you walked with tab/alt pressed everywhere. It was hidden in a pixel-wide hole in the middle of a field you had no reason to go to. Was it bad design? I don't think so. It wasn't as overpowered as you think. It was a suit of mail that wasn't better than the generic Plate Armor. The great thing about it was that it had a low strength requirement so you could easily put it on your wis based cleric or even a wizard to get some protection going. Though arcane failure relegated it more to the cleric side of things.

In the D:OS EE Twitch stream earlier today, weapon kits were mentioned, which are basic weapons which can be upgraded throughout the game.

It is false as long as you have to replace your slots two or three times over the course of the game. Mostly it is arms race because Health escalates throughout the game and in D:OS the way the ability/stat system works. Item dependent classes need to be able to compete with casters and vice versa. Thesis: epic spam directly correlates with quadraticity of wizards.

D:OS is a game that encourages number-crawling. It heavily relies on Attributes and other properties that have a number attached to it. For a system where you can find things that are of comparable value at any stage of the game but still different you need to avoid numbers like the plague. You can't just make them not scale, you make them unscalable. What is D:OS if you cannot get +2 str or +1 block and later have both on the same item?

In a system without randomness the problem of "weak uniques" is not tied to the number generator or the player who chose to go a certain path at early levels, it is tied to the developer. He imposes the appropriate balance upon the item and its ability. That does not mean the problem
is gone.



You first have to try making connections between systems and then declare them separate if you fail.
Crafting and loot can complement, interconnect and heavily overlap. Both need to be useful on their own. That is why we need to have a look on everything and then distribute duties and privileges. Those newly made interactions might solve a lot of problems.
You made this realization within your very first post.


Statements shoehorn a lot of processes into the same category. Possibly unrelated example: "This skill has a 1-in-6 chance to activate". There is lots of random. There is lots of pseudorandom. There is lots of it-is-neither-random-nor-chaotic-but-nobody-knows.
This statement was under the assumption you want to maximize "uniqueness" in a gameplay sense because I consider most DA:O stuff "generics with lore". No really, just copy paste them into D:OS and guess where the +10% fire damage staff comes from.

@lacrymas: It looks like you have a different definition of "level scaling" than I have.
For me it means: The power of things in the game world is dependent on your own power.

Regarding enemies it means: When you are lv15, all enemies are also lv15. the result can be seen in Oblivion (epic battles with rats) and it is terrible. (What, the title Oblivion does not refer to the quality of the game? Let this s*** go to hell )

regarding items it is what we have in D:OS1: When your char is lv 15, all shops sell equipment that is around lv15. I am not sure what to think of this. I am not even sure if it makes sense that shops change their inventory every time you level up.

In the obsidian forums (about a similar topic) I wrote something very bad. "When you look at the items in D:OS, you can clearly see that the game is derived from a Diablo clone." This is unfair because I never played DD. But i did not like that almost all items in D:OS had random stats and generic names.

However, selecting the power of an item depending on the area ( and enemies in this area) is not level scaling for me.

I think this is a very tricky and important thing to consider. I am not really that big on crafting, but I realize a lot of people are. I'm also not that big on items being the main driver for your characters power, I prefer that to be levels, talents, abilities, what-have-you. I enjoy unique items, and random loot as well. Tricky...


How about something along the lines of "upgrade slots" for items. In these slots, you can fit item abilities/upgrades, etc.

Weapon/armor level = base dmg/protection
Item rarity = number of upgrade slots
Unique placed weapons = unique removable upgrades that has some cool gimmic which retains usability
Upgrades are craftable & findable
Upgrades can be anything from +dmg, +specific spell upgrade/modification, on-hit abilities, etc.

This would make finding new items consistently exciting, because you might find that upgrade mod for that spell you like using. Unique items will be supercool when you find them, but if they don't fit your exact build or your level eclipse their use, you can still break out their signature ability and continue to use it. Crafting will remain a good option regardless of what you find.

With enough types of upgrades, you could keep things interesting forever. Maybe add craftable templates to find/buy, experimentations with different materials to find effects to put into upgrades, merge multiple low-level upgrades for higher levels, etc.