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Now back when a physical tree being on the table was a possibility (Bard still has a possibility) it wouldn't have been so bad for Polymorph to use INT afterall it is spellcasting.

But given that it isn't going to happen and a hybrid system (Int + Str) isn't likely.

I think Polymorph which is a skill involving transforming your body then lashing out should use strength. It fits mechanically and thematically without losing anything other then another intelligence spellcasting skill tree (which we have way too much of)

Given that strength ONLY has Marshal, this is desperately needed

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I agree with the idea that INT doesn't need to go up to 7 schools versus 1 for STR, but I have a different idea.

I think Polymorph should use Constitution, not STR. Polymorphing affects your body, so a high CON should allow for better control (and longer-lasting Polymorphs). Also, tying polymorph to CON makes it more usable for many different character types, not just warriors or mages.

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Yes you make a lot of sense with this post. I agree that is the way to go with Con for our main stat in Polymorphing.

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I really like the idea of it using CON, but others have pointed out that CON is so universally useful (and it gives a lot of health compared to many games) that polymorph would be too good to invest in as almost any class (unless it only really gives you melee bonuses or something.) Balanced right, I don't think it using CON would be that big of a deal, but it seems like it'd have to be weaker than your standard skill ability tree if it uses CON. Or perhaps you have to sacrifice something to polymorph (e.g., health? Willpower because it takes concentration?) Dunno. It's hard to make suggestions when we don't even know what kind of skills it will really add.

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I also agree with CON being the polymorphers governing stat as opposed to STR. Though I'm definitely concerned about how the STR will fare in D:OS2 if Man-at-Arms remains the sole skill tree governed by it.

I suggest that Polymorpher is made as something of an enhancer skill tree meaning that some skills can be used to the benefit any character and others for more focused benefits/enhancements to the specific types of characters.

I think that this would benefit simply because the way it's looking now, neither a STR or a DEX based skill tree is coming out of the vote and this would be a decent way to help these two out and not make a mage type character the go to. Since they're pushing the competitive multiplayer as much as they are, this could be an important thing in terms of balance for the game.

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The issue with Constitution is that from a game design standpoint constitution is basically benefiting the players twice over.

You could NEVER make a well designed character with just dex, or just str, or just intelligence and the way the other skills are designed.

Yet with constitution being the chief attribute governing Polymorph it becomes, to quote myself, "Too good". You would never need to put a single point into anything else creating an indestructible character who is the master of their craft.

The only way to balance such a thing would be to either
a) Make Polymorph terrible
b) Give the player sizable penalties (HP reduction for example) just for having Polymorph

To allow you to understand it...

Imagine a game where there was a character who actually got stronger the more defense you had. Where other characters are about balancing offense with defense or sacrificing one over the other... This one is all about having high defense means it has high offense with no downsides.

---

But really it is the developers to decide that.

Can you at least agree that Strength is a better idea then Intelligence?

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I agree that it makes sense constitution would be the leading stat for Polymorph but I also agree it would just be too good. Benefits everywhere.

That being said, maybe a trade off could be that Polymorph skill could take direct hits at the health pool each time you use them. Maybe a CON debuff depending on the "strength" of the skill you're about to use, like, I don't know, turning your whole arm into a tentacle would eat up one quater of your health, or turning your skin into an almost inpenetrable carapace would leave you with only 1hp as the trade off for being near unkillable ( think Path of Exile own Chaos Inoculation node )

Polymorph could maybe be a full toggle-based skilltree with the price being your CON, forcing the players to invest heavily into CON to be able to sustain the costs. Like, still in Path of Exile comparison mode, the whole mana reservation mechanic for Auras...


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Originally Posted by Neonivek
The issue with Constitution is that from a game design standpoint constitution is basically benefiting the players twice over.

You could NEVER make a well designed character with just dex, or just str, or just intelligence and the way the other skills are designed.

Yet with constitution being the chief attribute governing Polymorph it becomes, to quote myself, "Too good". You would never need to put a single point into anything else creating an indestructible character who is the master of their craft.


It would need to be balanced with care, however consider this: someone who puts points into only CON would only be able to be a good single-classed Polymorpher.

Perhaps a limit should be put in place as to how effective stacking massive boosts to CON is for that class. Dr Koin's idea of Polymorpher abilities being cast from hit points is an interesting one. If used it should be a percentage-based cost to HP though, to allow for hybrid polymorpher builds.

(I don't like the idea of a skill which leaves you at 1 HP for turning your skin into an "almost" impenetrable carapace though. That's either too good or too useless.)

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Can you at least agree that Strength is a better idea then Intelligence?


I'll concede that, sure.

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Originally Posted by Dr Koin
I agree that it makes sense constitution would be the leading stat for Polymorph but I also agree it would just be too good. Benefits everywhere.

That being said, maybe a trade off could be that Polymorph skill could take direct hits at the health pool each time you use them.


If, instead of having it toggle based, they just make it cost some of your hp to use and was a timed skill and if certain benefits also come with deficits that affect non-skill based qualities(i.e. boost strength & slaughter move speed || boost dex & lower armor rating) then they can make it a little more balanced.

For skills that actually change the character's form (if they have those) maybe the character loses the ability to equip armor for that body part that could add a little bit of difficulty to the fights if it's something that might take away an important piece or something.

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I had the idea to make Polymorph like a collection of several metamorphoses :
You have different "types" of polymorph like plant type, amphibian, bug/air, basic,...

All these skills stack with themselves for increased effect (arranged in levels or tiers). The actual mechanism is to have the stacks be removable or nurturable by elemental effects or damage types.
As consequence you basically have a guy who cannot do much for the first two rounds except for taking hits. Your enemies *should* concentrate on removing your stacks before they fully establish/become too many layers to be removed efficiently (there is the CON-synergy). They do so by burning a guy using plant morphs ("Skin of Thorns") or using crushing damage against bug type morphs ("Blood Leech", ?"Wings"?). Obviously it has the advantage of forced synergy.
Novice skills are mainly "basic" and can hardly be interrupted (but they do not make you "unstoppable"). Possible to add some kind of joker move which increases some/all stacks.

One possibility to give enemies incentive to interrupt you is either to make stacks grow per round (if cooldowns are longer) or stacks increase more the higher your current tier is (if cooldowns are short).

They main and gravy problem is that fights usually do not last that long for this version to unfold. While D:OS features fights decided within 3-5 rounds, you would need an ideal 8. Even if, for the most time your overpowering character will crush some barely surviving weaklings.

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Yes, Polymorph using Strength does make sense in the context of the theme, but that isn't entirely necessary.

Intellect is often associated with Magic of all forms, with only a few occasions of magic being governed by other areas (e.g. Paladins in WoW primarily using Strength but still use Holy Magic, and Enhancement Shamans using Agility, since their spell power is half of their attack power). It really depends on the Class and Skill Tree.

However, hybrid systems are far from irrational, as they have been done before. Many MMOs and RPGs have had classes that can fill multiple roles based solely on their gear composition and skill set (some classes can be both healers and tanks). Some MMOs, such as Champions Online (the example for the next bit), have Stats that govern very specific things, e.g. Strength increases your Physical Power, Dexterity increases your Crit Chance and Power, Constitution increases your Health, Intelligence affects your Cooldowns and Energy Costs, Ego improving Ranged Damage and Hold Resist, Presence increasing Healing and CC Resist, Recovery improves your Self-Healing, and your Endurance increases your Energy Thresh-hold.

In Original Sin, this is handled differently: Strength increases the power of Strength-Based Weapons (swords, axes, clubs, etc.) and your carry weight; Dexterity increases you Defense Rating (surprisingly) and the power of Dexterity-Based Weapons (bows, crossbows, daggers, etc.); Intelligence increases the power of Intelligence-Based Weapons (staves and wands); Constitution increases your Maximum AP and Vitality; Speed boosts just about everything AP and Movement related; Perception boosts... well, detection and Critical Chance, and reduces Ranged Hit Penalties. NOTE: Strength, Dexterity, and Intelligence all reduce the cooldowns of abilities affected by them.
In all honesty, if any Attribute fits the bill for Polymorph, Dexterity seems to be the best fit. YES, Strength can easily be a factor based on the context, and it would make sense if the spells in question increase your physical strength. However, another argument could be said for having it governed by Dexterity. I can imagine that Polymorphing on a moment's notice could require a bit of finesse. And Dexterity is often associated with finesse. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how that might work...

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if any Attribute fits the bill for Polymorph, Dexterity seems to be the best fit. YES, Strength can easily be a factor based on the context, and it would make sense if the spells in question increase your physical strength. However, another argument could be said for having it governed by Dexterity. I can imagine that Polymorphing on a moment's notice could require a bit of finesse. And Dexterity is often associated with finesse. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how that might work...


stronly disagree. Dex is the least fitting attribute out of them all.
I could make a case for any single one other than Dex.

Changing your body doesnt take dexterity or finesse as you call it. Because you fundamentally change how your body works, if anything, your dexterity with your limbs is made irrelevant by the fact that you change them.

Also from a gameplay perspective, dex based trees such as Ranger and Thief benefit the least from what we know of the polymorpher tree so far.

It would make very little sense to make it scale with that attribute unless larian brings back Spears as Dex weapons, as to make the polymorpher into a dex warrior, but i still dont see how Dex fits with polymorphing.

Endurance seems to fit the best for me, having strain on your physical body.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
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if any Attribute fits the bill for Polymorph, Dexterity seems to be the best fit. YES, Strength can easily be a factor based on the context, and it would make sense if the spells in question increase your physical strength. However, another argument could be said for having it governed by Dexterity. I can imagine that Polymorphing on a moment's notice could require a bit of finesse. And Dexterity is often associated with finesse. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how that might work...


stronly disagree. Dex is the least fitting attribute out of them all.
I could make a case for any single one other than Dex.

Changing your body doesnt take dexterity or finesse as you call it. Because you fundamentally change how your body works, if anything, your dexterity with your limbs is made irrelevant by the fact that you change them.

Also from a gameplay perspective, dex based trees such as Ranger and Thief benefit the least from what we know of the polymorpher tree so far.

It would make very little sense to make it scale with that attribute unless larian brings back Spears as Dex weapons, as to make the polymorpher into a dex warrior, but i still dont see how Dex fits with polymorphing.

Endurance seems to fit the best for me, having strain on your physical body.


I see your point. Endurance would make more sense with Polymorph. The problem is making it work with other skill trees, as Endurance-based skill-trees are pretty much non-existent.
P.S.: The reason I went with Dex was because Dex increases your Defense rating, and is the only Attribute that does so (not even Endurance does this, and I even went out of the way to confirm this), and I can imagine Polymorph to be an interesting Hybrid Skill Tree if done right. I have to look at the Polymorph Concept to get an idea on how it would work, but considering Expert Marksman used Dexterity instead of the more logical Perception to scale it's abilities (Dex scaled Dexterity-Based Weapons, but Perception increased your Crit Rating AND your accuracy over long range), I think we can see that no matter what we expect, it is ultimately what the Devs think it should be governed by...

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Magic as intelligence only is pretty much held only up by convention but lets forget that for a second and bring up Dungeons and dragons. Here are all the stats in dnd that are used for it

1) Intelligence: Typical arcane study
2) Wisdom: Clerical study, empathy, and philosophy. Spiritualistic
3) Charisma: Self-sourced magic, you bend yourself and thus magic occurs
4) Constitution: Natural aspects of your physical body/form that are magical in nature.

The reason why Strength works for Polymorph is that it can be seen as something that "enhances" your current form. The stronger you are the stronger your form is.

Constitution and intelligence also works. And while Dex isn't immediately obvious there are indeed settings where shapeshifting definitely makes sense for dexterity (where it is described as physically contorting your form into desired shapes)

The point really is don't be so stuck in convention.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
Magic as intelligence only is pretty much held only up by convention but lets forget that for a second and bring up Dungeons and dragons. Here are all the stats in dnd that are used for it

1) Intelligence: Typical arcane study
2) Wisdom: Clerical study, empathy, and philosophy. Spiritualistic
3) Charisma: Self-sourced magic, you bend yourself and thus magic occurs
4) Constitution: Natural aspects of your physical body/form that are magical in nature.

The reason why Strength works for Polymorph is that it can be seen as something that "enhances" your current form. The stronger you are the stronger your form is.

Constitution and intelligence also works. And while Dex isn't immediately obvious there are indeed settings where shapeshifting definitely makes sense for dexterity (where it is described as physically contorting your form into desired shapes)

The point really is don't be so stuck in convention.


Glad to hear at least someone agrees with me laugh

One thing I like about Divinity: Original Sin is that every stat is useful in it's own way regardless of what playstyle you have. Some stats are more important than others in certain playstyles but that isn't the point. Each stat does something unique that sets it apart from others. Generally, Dexterity is more accociated with Critical Hits, but I'm happy they did something different by making Dexterity a more defensive stat by giving a Defense modifier.

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Think about a class variation and balance aswell.

There are already two dex based trees, which incidently also synergize with one another.
On the other hand, there is only one strength based tree which mostly syngergizes with Int based trees.

As such, building a warrior realy boils down to either playing a hybrid or playing a character that only has one skill tree, investing the spare points into the armor skill and such.
This makes the warrior into an extremley dull experience which realy isnt helped by dual wielding at all (if anything, its one more thing to dump your stats into, ive tried playing a pyromancer/warrior hybrid with dual wielding and while it does work out in the end, i feel like his progression would be quite a bit faster if id have just ditched dual wielding altogether and gone for two handed instead, pretty sure the same is true for more syngergetic trees like geomancer)

Warriors need more options. Summoning master will probably be governed by Intelligence yet again, im actually quite afraid of the summoning master tree making warriors obsolete. Using summons to tank is already very effective in Original Sin EE, having a full tree for that means that you can make a utility mage that also serves as your tank without having to invest any points into strength.

The thing with divinity is that it is great that it has no dump stats.
This however also means that too many skills are, for thematic reasons, governed by the same stats and some stats are, for gameplay reasons, not governing any skills.

in DnD based games, this was never the case. As it was already pointed out in this thread.
The situation of having the main damage class and the main healing class AND the main utility class all beeing governed by the same primary atribute, together with a skill system that allows you to pick up usefull skills from all of those trees with minimal point investment leads to an extremley biased form of character development.

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Depending on how many shapes/forms you can polymorph into, maybe each shape could be tied to a specific attribute? If there is a light agile form, it could be tied to dexterity. If there is a hulking monstrosity, it could be tied to strength, and so forth.

That way polymorph will complement any particular play style without being gimp or OP on any character.

(oops, just a general reply, not directed at anyone specific)

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The question to start with, would be what purpose the individual shapes have.

Boosting a specific attribute, trading whatever attribute Polymorph revolves around temporarily for a different one?
-> Could work well with Constitution. Scale with Constitution, take a penalty on Constitution upon use, achieve a boost onto a different attribute. Could even be stacked, but the loss of Constitution would mean (natural) diminishing returns while also turning the character less durable.
E.g. "-20% Constitution. 25% of Const is added to Strength"

Granting specials skill only available to a specific form, bending the rules?
-> Possible, but it should NOT use the primary attribute of the Polymorph tree, especially not when it is constitution.

It could be interesting to push the Polymorph combat wise in a similar direction as the Geomancer, constantly balancing between glass cannon and tank, except that the bottom line for the Polymorph is "tank", while the glass cannon configuration develops with skill use. Naturally low on the attribute(s) usually required for the secondary/primary class, with the option to boost in atypical directions if required, and a small number of active skills.

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I think Strength should be your main attribute which effects damage output and reduces AP cost.

1. The act of polymorphing should cost life. Lore reasons could be that polymorphing isn't magic but the act of forcefully changing your body through brute strength. Kind of like how the werewolves from the Netflix series "Hemlock Grove" change. They reform their bones and "shed" their human skin.
2. Constitution would be your second primary stat which reduces the life cost of polymorphing.

For example,
Form of the Wasp - Become an agile wasp that can shoot poisonous stingers.
- Lose 40% health. (Health cost reduced by 2% for each point of Constitution)
If you had 10 Constitution it would be "Lose 20% health."
- Increases Dexterity by 60% of your strength.
If you had 10 Strength it would increase your dexterity by 6 while in Wasp form.

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I'd prefer INT + CON hybrid. (to symbolize knowledge and endurance to do so)

Btw...
I'm actually not really into this shifter stuff in general. But... if it's not only about transforming yourself into animals/whatnot, but use it in more diversive ways... like turning a fierce warrior into a fish in the middle of the desert... Or like DnD some partial transformations, like growing wings, or scales.
Or in conjunction with other skillsets, like summoning a wolf and turning it into a giant scorpion...
That I could find interesting...


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