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There has been a common theme in several of my posts regarding the way that skills and attributes are set up in D:OS. I'm sure this idea will be controversial because I know we all love the status quo, but here goes...

First of all, lets look at how the skills and abilities are distributed

Primary attribute: Strength
Man at Arms
heavy armour
standard weapons

Primary attribute: Dexterity
Expert Marksman (requires bow)
Scoundrel (requires daggers)
light armour
bows & daggers

Primary attribute: Intelligence
Aerothurge
Geomancer
Pyrokinetic
Hydrosophist
Witchcraft
staffs and wands

You can effectively mix-and-match intelligence skills such as Aerothurge & Geomancer. However, you can't mix-and-match between different primary attributes (or different weapon requirements), so non-intelligence-based skills are too boring. Adding additional skill groups that could be used together with Man At Arms would be cool.

Another problem is that if I want to build a constitution-focused warrior-tank, I still have to put attribute points into strength AND put ability points in heavy armour just so I can effectively use the best armour and fulfil my role as a tank. Also, I noticed that by using a sword and shield, my warrior is actually really slow, but this means having to split points into speed as well. My warrior-tank is a failure. When I put attribute points in strength, intelligence or dexterity, I'm not really customising my character. It's generally a forced choice.

But I have a better idea. Instead of having attributes, why not make the builds entirely ability-based? Remove the strength requirement for heavy armour and just rely on the heavy armour ability. Maybe you want your warrior to be a bit more agile? Put points into light armour instead and enjoy. Maybe you just want to inflict massive damage? Screw the armour abilities and invest everything into offensive abilities. The opportunities are pretty exciting.

I think that when you want to encourage specific builds, you could introduce incentives/penalties for certain combinations. For example, maybe learning water magic actually becomes more expensive after learning fire magic, but there are plenty of different ways to achieve this.

But I don't think you need to try too hard overall. The fact is that a wizard, for example, is naturally long-range and squishy so they're naturally unlikely to equip heavy armour and rush to the front lines. But honestly that still sounds pretty cool to me .

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So to be clear, you're saying we should take all attributes away, or just strength/int/dex? Either way, interesting idea, but not sure if eliminating some of or a whole aspect of character customization would add more variety of character development. Personally, I'd prefer it if it they just made each attribute useful to all classes. This is one thing I think Pillars of Eternity did pretty well. Instead of Strength, they had Might, which increased damage globally, for example. I mean, they could keep the attributes affecting primary skills like Man-At-Arms, since a weak warrior is generally going to have some trouble, but giving Strength utility for mages, rogues, and wizards too would be cool. Strength influences carry weight and throw distance, sure, but that's not that important.

Here are some ideas:

Strength

-a global +range modifier for non-melee attacks, including for spells and bows
-knockback chance or global knockdown chance
-influences bodybuilding resists slightly

Dexterity (already somewhat universal with added dodge chance)

-Global reduction in cooldowns for all schools (very minor, but will add up)
-Knockdown resist
-Chance to resist status effects when running through surfaces

Intelligence

-Extra ability points on level up (I'm thinking a very minimal effect, but will award a few points through the game.)
-influences willpower resists slightly
-increases status application chance for all school skills.

Perception should just give a better initiative bonus and other bonuses to first turn, and I think it'd be a better attribute for everyone.

Just some ideas.

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Originally Posted by Baardvark
So to be clear, you're saying we should take all attributes away, or just strength/int/dex?

Personally, I'd prefer it if it they just made each attribute useful to all classes.

I kind of agree with you and I thought about that. But the problem I come up with, for example, is that then you might get dexterity for the reduced cooldown on your spells, and then switch to the sword and the bonus there as well. You add an attribute and it makes you better at everything. This doesn't gel with me.

I actually do prefer to remove them completely. I don't think of this as "less" customisation though, because these attribute effects can be abstracted in other areas of the game. For example, maybe the penalty for choosing fire and water spells is that your cooldowns actually get longer? Perhaps another ability could give you extra movement at the start of battle (thus providing the benefit of perception).

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If you're just going to make attribute effects map to abilities and add new abilities, I don't really see the point because you're just putting points in, and if you're going to add the effects attributes give on to existing abilities, then it definitely seems like you have less freedom to me. I mean, maybe you could ditch strength requirements on armor and just use armor specialist, for example, but that's not particularly interesting to me either. And I'd rather see interesting ways to synergize water and fire together instead of making them even more exclusive. Though I do think mages should get a benefit for focusing on a particular tree that compares with investing in multiple trees.

The way I see it, dexterity might reduce global cooldowns and make you better at everything, but only by a little bit. You're still going to have a limited amount of attributes, so you'll have to decide if you value range, cooldowns, or +status application, with my examples. Different builds would value different attributes, but, say, a damage-focused mage could invest a lot in strength and dexterity to increase range and decrease cooldowns, where a cc-focused mage would invest in intelligence to increase the chance for statuses to apply. Likewise, a ranger that wants to hit enemies from really far would need a lot of strength. Probably Larian would keep primary attributes to some degree so a mage would still need at least a little intelligence to be effective, but it'd be nice if the requirements were a bit looser.

Another idea for intelligence is if it let you learn more skills per ability tree. Say, 5 int over 5 = 1 extra skill.


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Larians say that DOS is classles. In theory, maby.
In fact there are only 3-5 builds, resp. classes.

Issue is that combination of schools based on certain attribute is not limited.
All INT based "classes" are in fact just one class. (well maby 2 - one is mage with wands, second is mage with staff)

To promote more possible working classes some limit is required.
I think that:
first school opening point costs 0 skill point.
second school opening point costs 1
thirth school opening point costs 2
and so on.

This way you can limit number of opened schools so more different build are possible.
Now, you get Water to 4, Witch to 3. And all other spell schools to one. Also add one point of Scoundrell and one point of Man-at-arms. So you have 7 differnt schools opened by one universal hero. YOu dont need builds, you could take everything usefull.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Second thing regarding attributes -
saving throws. all battle is about cc effects and saving throws. althou there are just 2 kind of saving throws which are NOT connected to the Attributes. That is design flaw.

I would propose introduce 3 saving throws connected to attributes
Strength - Bodybuilding
Int - Willpower
Dex - Reflex < --- the new one

Then give bonus to saving throw based on the attribute. For every 5 points of attribute add 1 point of related saving throw.

That gives nice choices. And more colorful play. Spells(skills) with saving rolls based on bodybuilding most probably fail on warrior. However you could still have a mage who dump a lot point to bodybuilding to surprise enemy.


Last edited by gGeo; 25/03/16 10:27 AM.
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Here is a post from Josh Sawyer about the Pillars of Eternety stat system.
http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/misc/pe-jsawyer-gods-and-dumps.pdf
PoE has the best stat system I know so far and they made a good job in class balance and allowing several working builds per class.

D:OS (2) is classless, but I think some things can be learned from PoE:
- Each attribute has at least some possible use for each char. Right now, in D:OS int is important for mages (str for fighters, dex for rogues and archers), but completely useless for all other "classes". Per, con and speed are important for everyone.

What do you think about adapting the PoE system to D:OS?
for example:
Strengh: improves your damage
dex: improves your chance to evade attacks
int: Increases the size of AoE skills
con: more hit points
speed: move further per AP
per: increases range of spells

Since D:OS is turn based, attack speed, interrupt and maybe duration make not much sense. The main problem would be how to determine hit chance and initiative.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
Here is a post from Josh Sawyer about the Pillars of Eternety stat system.
http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/misc/pe-jsawyer-gods-and-dumps.pdf
PoE has the best stat system I know so far and they made a good job in class balance and allowing several working builds per class.

D:OS (2) is classless, but I think some things can be learned from PoE:
- Each attribute has at least some possible use for each char. Right now, in D:OS int is important for mages (str for fighters, dex for rogues and archers), but completely useless for all other "classes". Per, con and speed are important for everyone.

What do you think about adapting the PoE system to D:OS?
for example:
Strengh: improves your damage
dex: improves your chance to evade attacks
int: Increases the size of AoE skills
con: more hit points
speed: move further per AP
per: increases range of spells

Since D:OS is turn based, attack speed, interrupt and maybe duration make not much sense. The main problem would be how to determine hit chance and initiative.


Didn't occur to me that you could mostly already copy the POE stat system, though obviously there will be some differences. Wider AoE for intelligence is definitely a great attribute effect, though doesn't make that much sense for something like whirlwind.

Calculating hit chance is definitely a challenge with this sort of stat system. Either STR/DEX/INT could still increase hit chance for the appropriate weapons, but the requirement is a bit looser, or perhaps Perception could actually be the primary hit-chance attribute. And IMO Perception and/or Speed could still increase initiative in that system.

They might also have to add slightly more attributes overall to compensate for the wider spread of investment, but maybe not. I also still like the idea of strength increasing range instead of damage, or at least increasing range for something like grenades.

But I imagine they'll go for a more incremental change instead of overhauling the stat system (Though then again, with what they've done with AP, who knows). Even if each primary attribute operated the same but had one more aspect that improved skills universally in different ways, that'd be a good start and I think would help hybrid builds in particular.

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Originally Posted by Madscientist
... adapting the PoE system to D:OS?
for example:
Strengh: improves your damage
dex: improves your chance to evade attacks // Done
int: Increases the size of AoE skills
con: more hit points // Done
speed: move further per AP // Done
per: increases range of spells
Hey scientist are you mad? Half of your recommendation are already done.

Strengh: improves your damage - sounds good. In the first. Althou better would be - Strenght improves damage done by melle weapons. Compare to current system, you remove possible combat mages with staffs. Also you need redo scoundrells, becouse they would be hopeless. So in fact connection strenght to damage would help only proffesional warriors who has the strenght already high.

DoS uses limits of level AND limit of attribute to use a certain weapon/skill. Think about it as a slot of a robot. you have the robot with 4 slots of 8 level and strenght 16 then saw is availabe for mount in but electric rod is not. this robot has no proper generator. systems like PoE uses linear dependecies. DoS is more yes / no system. And yes that guy on the presentation has right, PoE has less chance to create bad character then DoS. DoS system is more simpler to create, more simpler to design. But it allows many very bad and few very good builds. Unfortunately - casual/new players will ends up with bad builds and quit DoS. Asian games like Lineage solve it simply. Choose a class and that is. Variations are so limited that there is no space for mistake. That system is even more simpler. Gives better average satisfaction but, aspect of personality is somehat reduced to fancy hats.

Regarding AoE -
Originally Posted by Baardvark
Wider AoE for intelligence ... though doesn't make that much sense for something like whirlwind.
+1
More over - Connect any spell related value to Int do not help for different builds. As a mage you still push Int all day long. Just another Mad idea.

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- First of all, I do not think that the devs will ever use a PoE like system for D:OS2. This presentation is just one of the few examples where devs explain why they did what they did. My personal opinion is, that PoE is one of the better examples of character systems in computer RPGs. Another system I liked was Drakensang (You get exp and you can spend this exp to whatever skill or attribute you want. Higher ranks cost more exp. Your level does nothing except limiting you max skill level. You max skill level is for example character level+3, so you cannot spend all points in strengh and Greatsword and nothing else.)

- It is very easy to make a bad char in D:OS: a mage with low int, a fighter with low str, an archer or rogue with low dex and a char who tries to be good in several skills with different main stats.

- It is also very easy to make a good char: max out one of str, dex, int and take only high level skills with this stat (It is good to take one point in some other skills for abilities that do not require a "saving throw"). Give the char much speed so he can use this skills often and enough per and con to survive.

- I dislike the idea that your only significant choice is your class (or a selection of pre generated chars). I do not want D:OS2 to be a JRPG. There are several JRPGs I like a lot, but I do not want D:OS2 to be this way.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
- It is very easy to make a bad char in D:OS: a mage with low int, a fighter with low str, an archer or rogue with low dex
Well, mage with low Int focused for dual wands and 1 point at every mage school plus Scoundrell, Man-at arms. Its one of the few very good chars.

Also Archer crossbow with low dex is one of the most power-full damage dealers. Second very good char. :-]

These are those few greate build which are not usualy used by new/casual player.

Originally Posted by Madscientist

- It is also very easy to make a good char: max out one of str, dex, int and take only high level skills with this stat
No

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You need int to equip wands (ok, not that much) and dex (bow, crossbow, dagger) or str (sword, axe) for other weapons (highest requirement at lv21 was 16, at least in my game), so you have to raise the primary stats to equip things.

Raising your primary stat raises your damage and success chance. Each spell has a base stat and a base value. Each point below the base value lowers your damage/success chance by 10%, each point above the base value raises it by 5%.

Example 1: (arbitrary names and numbers)
Lets say you have a fireball spell based on int, the base value is 10 int and the base damage is 100.
If you have 9 int, damage will be 90. If you have 11 int, your damage will be 105.

Example 2: (arbitrary names and numbers)
You have a charm spell based on int, base value is 10 int and base success chance is 80% against an enemy without resistances. If your int is 9, your success chance is 70%. If your int is 11, your success chance is 85%.

Even buffs you cast on your party members can fail if your primary stat it too low.
You must also remember that raising the primary stat lowers the cooldown of many spells.

I see no reason not to focus on one primary stat and speed, though there may be other useful builds.

I admit that I finished the EE only once (Sorry, there are so many good games in the world). I did it with 4 chars that focussed on one primary stat and speed and the game was very easy once I passed level 6.
My fighter with high str, 5 points in dual wield and self crafted weapons killed every enemy in 1 or 2 hits.
My archer was very good in doing party friendly damage at any distance. Some special arrows are also nice.
My mage was very good in CCing most enemies.

summary:
It is easy to make a good char if you follow some simple rules. You can make very powerful chars (maybe even more powerful than the usual chars) if you know what you are doing and then ignore those simple rules.
But for new players who have little experiance in computer RPGs it is very easy to create a bad char.


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Yes, the wand requirement is low. Keep it so low only to equip that, others dump to speed, on the endgame one or two to constitution. There is a lot items for Int but few to spd. Max Dual wield and wands. Then take summon spells mostly and non Int related spell. 1-2 points in all spell classes. Damage made by wands and decoy by summon. In case of problem (1-2 fight per game) use high level spell from wand or scroll. I call it speedy cheerleader laugh

Originally Posted by Madscientist

summary:
It is easy to make a good char if you follow some simple rules. You can make very powerful chars (maybe even more powerful than the usual chars) if you know what you are doing and then ignore those simple rules.
But for new players who have little experiance in computer RPGs it is very easy to create a bad char.
+1
Maby there should be an ingame guide. So you could select "The almighty dual wielder" on the character creation, then on the level up you could press "recommended" so a casual or newbe could avoid disappointment.
Also a lot of starting classes should be shrink ed to few with recommended button.
So you could choose only 5 the classic archetypes. Very good tuned builds with recomended button, or make an own. Of course you could slide from the clasic build whenever you want.

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RPG system design has been fascinating to me since I was a kid.

My two cents:
1) I like the idea of making all stats useful in some way to most builds.

It cheapens the game to have obvious choices and dump stats. I had fun in Pillars of Eternity working through the possibilities in that system, and it felt good to come up with a decent build knowing I didn't have to follow one or two prescribed most powerful options for each class.

However, this will still face the problem that there is generally one best/optimal choice when it comes down to it, except instead of "do I take X or Y?" it will be "X, Y, or Z?", and most players will figure that out.

You would have to make attributes do something more interesting and influence a character's active role, which something like "more damage" vs. "a minor chance to dodge" doesn't do. For example, the effect of intelligence in Pillars (AOE and duration of skills) was meaningful enough to make most fighters not mindlessly (ha) skip it.

2) One possible improvement to attributes is to progressively increase costs just like with ability points (1 point at first, then 2, 3, etc.)

Balancing the relative strength of attributes to be as equal as possible is difficult if not impossible, and potentially takes away from customization by making choices feel bland or inconsequential.

Increasing costs to keep pumping a stat can solve this while encouraging players to consider other stats that normally might never compare to something like a primary attribute or speed in D:OS. Min-maxing will always exist in some form, but at least this way can reward a wider range of thoughtful mix-and-match of attributes.

It works in part because it's closer to how reality works. Beginners always make faster gains than experts who must invest more and more to push the limits of what is possible. Some people become masters in one main area due to this focused dedication, others fulfill valuable roles with a blend of skills and perspectives even if not the best in any single area. It's the idea of pure vs. hybrid classes, and it would be great if D:OS 2 really enables the player to go either route.

tl;dr To empower the player, games should provide multiple paths to success, make attribute choices more interesting, and enable hybrid builds by making initial stat investments cheaper.

Last edited by Metafact; 08/04/16 07:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Metafact
One possible improvement to attributes is to progressively increase costs just like with ability points (1 point at first, then 2, 3, etc.)

...

It works in part because it's closer to how reality works. Beginners always make faster gains than experts who must invest more and more to push the limits of what is possible.

Firstly, this is incorrect. Also, I really don't feel that I would enjoy RPG mechanics like this.

Experts only begin to struggle when they begin to hit their biological limitations. As an example, strength training programs are generally linear until you start to approach your limit. Hafthór Júlíus Björnsson can lift 450kg. But that's pretty much his limit. He will keep training in order to continue being able to lift 450kg, but you'd never expect him to significantly improve on this. (An RPG mechanic where you lose stats if you don't train them enough? That would definitely be... experimental.)

I've always hated the idea of making higher stats more expensive, especially when I've felt railroaded into bland and forced generalisation. I want to at least feel like I'm able to specialise if I want to. If stats have linear effects then that really seems to be enough. 4kg is a lot more than 2kg, but 22kg isn't that much more than 20kg. I've always felt this is a natural way to incentivise diversification through diminishing returns.

For a non-physical example, I'm currently learning Chinese. I am actually getting faster (ie, learning more words per day) than when I first started. However, once you've learned 2000 words, the next 100 words you add to your vocabulary are going to be less valuable than the first 100 words you studied.

Any system should definitely accommodate different play-styles and reflect this in character stats/abilities in a nuanced way. But at the same time, I feel that D:OS has too many stats that are unavoidably going to be dump stats for certain classes.

It's not that I want STR to make magic more powerful. I actually hate that idea. But I still want there to be situations where it's a good idea for a wizard to have points in STR. Like maybe there is actually a practical build for a wizard to slap people in the face sometimes?

The problem is that if there is no practical or significant benefit for a wizard to have STR, then I start to wonder why I'm given the choice at all. Even if it's worthwhile, I feel that once I put points into a sword skills, then I feel I've communicated my interest in swords, and I shouldn't have to also put points into STR just to benefit from the skill.

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In theory it is because we can crossclass

In reality... No we really can't.

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in the enhanced edition at least the primairy attributes seem to limit multiclassing (esp for warriors/man-at-arms that can only dip into the buff/summon groups of other skills). and the intelligence group is swamped with options because the game sports 5 magic schools. though attributes are a stable in RPGs, and I personally feel they should stay.

strength: carry capacity, power with any physical weapon that requires hitting, throwing pulling etc. capability to carry heavier armors and shields without impeding speed. fortifies resistances that dislodge the character like knockback or tripping.
dexterity: character accuracy and balance, power of any weapon where accuracy is key, this includes magic projectiles. ability to dodge and block attacks (reactions) critical hit rate. ability to craft small or fragile objects effectively, empowers lockpicking.
constitution: character stamina and body chemistry, affects AP max, start and recovery, HP total and recovery deals with resistances that directly attack the body like intoxication, poison, disease, stun.
intelligence: character logic and comprehension, should affect available skill slots for any school, crafting, incantation strength of spells and resistance against spells that affect mental aptitude like charm, confusion and fear.
speed: characters movement speed, initiative and action point recovery.
perception: strength of the characters senses, counteracts blind and enemy invisibility, allows spotting of secrets, traps and tracks. increases stealth.

now naturally this has to work hand in hand with the equipment system and other skills, having strength to allow characters to work better in heavy armor should means that mages bathrobes should not have a equal level of armor. most weapons should get scalings in both dex and strength, leaning more to strength for greatswords/axes/warhammers and more to dex for spears, rapiers, daggers, and bows...but both will be needed to get the best out of the weapon while for elemental stuff, int comes into play as well. int also comes into play if you want to do more then just "hit stuff with the business end"

I would also tie a great deal of the bodybuilding and willpower skills into the main attributes and equipment given resistances.





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