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Zombra Offline OP
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Chosen One does not refer to a literal messiah, but simply to an "essential" main character. Stories with this format are okay and there's nothing wrong with them - but this game was sold partly on the idea of multiple perspectives and meaningful conflict, and these are the reasons I backed the game. It's very disappointing for these innovative ideas to be removed from the single-player experience, and for no good reason.

Whether death is permanent or not is also beside the point, which is simply that no one character should be the infallible hero. In a true party-based game, individuals are expendable; what matters is the group.

I just think it's incredibly interesting to have characters with different goals, and not have them all able to fulfill them all because some of them are in conflict. This becomes far less interesting when PC #1 gets to fulfill all his goals because and only because he's been anointed as the magical protagonist.

As for mod tools, I have no interest in writing a novel in this world. I just like portraying characters accurately according to their motivations and seeing what happens, and that is much more satisfying when the conclusion isn't predetermined.

Basically the game is only going to have one ending based on which character I choose. In a sense the game will be over as soon as it starts. How much better it would be if I didn't know who would come out on top?

Last edited by Zombra; 26/08/16 09:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by Zombra
Chosen One does not refer to a literal messiah, but simply to an "essential" main character. Stories with this format are okay and there's nothing wrong with them - but this game was sold partly on the idea of multiple perspectives and meaningful conflict, and these are the reasons I backed the game. It's very disappointing for these innovative ideas to be removed from the single-player experience, and for no good reason.

I don't think that means what you think it means.
The Chosen One - TV Tropes

What you're asking for is an ensemble cast -- ie, a story without a protagonist.

From the D:OS2 kickstarter (emphasis mine):
Quote
At the start of the game, you pick a single character and determine your starting stats, race, and origin story.

You'll be able to recruit up to three companions, each of whom is just as detailed as the character you're playing, with their own origin story and motivation to help you in your quest.

This makes it possible for each companion to become a player character in multiplayer mode; every party member is equally important to the whole.

In multiplayer, up to 4 players can play together, either cooperatively or competitively.

During competitive questing, you’ll pursue different plot-lines from other players, often because your personal motivations are in conflict with those of the party.

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Do we know whether, in multiplayer, it is possible for one player to control more than one character?


Someone must have spiked her senna pod drink!
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Should be possible, since it worked in D:OS 1.

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Thanks for that comment - in which case it seems to me that one player could control all four characters with quests and aims to fulfil? Does this answer the concerns in previous posts?


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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Zombra
Chosen One does not refer to a literal messiah, but simply to an "essential" main character. Stories with this format are okay and there's nothing wrong with them - but this game was sold partly on the idea of multiple perspectives and meaningful conflict, and these are the reasons I backed the game. It's very disappointing for these innovative ideas to be removed from the single-player experience, and for no good reason.

I don't think that means what you think it means.
The Chosen One - TV Tropes

Well, TV Tropes isn't a dictionary, and despite the broadening of its scope it is focused on definitions that apply best to, well, TV. That definition focuses on the story role of the character; in terms of game design the definition really is pretty much the same. The characters in the world may or may not demonstrably worship the one true PC in a Chosen One game, but the game itself does; the world completely revolves around them. I stand by my use of the term.

An "ensemble cast" does indeed describe the TV version of a true party-based game.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
From the D:OS2 kickstarter (emphasis mine):
Quote
At the start of the game, you pick a single character and determine your starting stats, race, and origin story.

You'll be able to recruit up to three companions, each of whom is just as detailed as the character you're playing, with their own origin story and motivation to help you in your quest.

This makes it possible for each companion to become a player character in multiplayer mode; every party member is equally important to the whole.

In multiplayer, up to 4 players can play together, either cooperatively or competitively.

During competitive questing, you’ll pursue different plot-lines from other players, often because your personal motivations are in conflict with those of the party.

Good quote - thank you for that. I was evidently mistaken about being able to make multiple PCs - I must have jumped to that assumption because the first game did such a nice job with multiple created PCs in conflict with each other. It never occurred to me that they would actually cut back on characters in the sequel. Does DOS1 qualify as an ensemble cast with two equally important protagonists? Why change that?

Anyway, that very quote of yours also talks a about intra-party conflict and how every PC is equally important and has their own story - at least in multiplayer. This is the stuff that I fixated on and have been asking about for the past year. "Can I do this in single player also"? The answers I received were vague yeses ... but vague. Don't think that I'm screaming that promises were broken - I'm not. But I was led to believe - vaguely - that I'd be able to have my ensemble cast. I'm (understandably, I hope) disappointed that the opposite has turned out to be the case - particularly since the infrastructure is all right there; Swen has simply chosen to make it unavailable in single-player.

Last edited by Zombra; 26/08/16 05:23 PM.
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As stated before, given that they're using this mode for QA purposes but keeping it out of the published game for "design reasons", it should theoretically be easy to make this one of the first mods once the game exits Early Access. Officially you won't get what you want, but you should still get what you want.

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While I do not mind being able to make multiple characters during character creation in single player...

I respect their decision not to.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Officially you won't get what you want, but you should still get what you want.

laugh

The upside is that Swen also talked about the possibility (not a guarantee, but at least a possibility) of adding party-based single player (or "ensemble mode", I really like that word for it) later down the line. Very likely I'll just end up waiting a year or so to see what kinds of improvements are made before playing. See if they do an "EE" version with that functionality added back in.

Last edited by Zombra; 26/08/16 11:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Neonivek
While I do not mind being able to make multiple characters during character creation in single player...

I respect their decision not to.

This is actually an option I'd prefer. I'd like to choose the characters I like, while still being able to balance my party.

I expect this should be easily modded in too. (I hope?)

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
[quote=Neonivek]I expect this should be easily modded in too. (I hope?)


Given that there are mods for the first game that
A) Allow you to have more then 4 characters
and
B) allow 4 person multiplayer where you can all make a character.

I think it is likely.

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I don't believe that 'it can be modded in' is a decent answer for Larian. This is stuff that should be available by default.

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Well the fact is Larian can do it, but explicitly don't want to do it.

It's like asking why there aren't space marines armed with lasers in the game. That's not the game they decided to make.

So the most reasonable request is that it should be easy to mod.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Well the fact is Larian can do it, but explicitly don't want to do it.

It's like asking why there aren't space marines armed with lasers in the game. That's not the game they decided to make.

So the most reasonable request is that it should be easy to mod.


I mean yes I do agree that "There is a mod for it" and "Mod it in" is never a appropriate response to one of these threads (well on its own)

But I have respect for conscious decisions.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Well the fact is Larian can do it, but explicitly don't want to do it. It's like asking why there aren't space marines armed with lasers in the game. That's not the game they decided to make.

But ... that's exactly the game they decided to make! They just don't want certain people playing it.

Originally Posted by Neonivek
I have respect for conscious decisions.

I respect conscious decisions too - when they make a damn bit of sense.

Again, here's Swen's reason for denying a party-based option in single-player:
Quote
Swen: Yeah, I've heard that quite a few times. In the single player campaign, that's currently not the case. I'm not gonna say “No” - we'll see where we end up with that. But we won't ship it with that option for sure; it would be an enhancement or a modification afterwards. Because I really want people to try out the Origin stories. And if you give [full party creation to them] from the get go, people are perhaps not going to pick the Origin stories; they're going to miss out on all the fun, because they won't realize how deep we went on all of the dialogue options.

So ... he's worried that people might make their own characters instead of picking premade ones with cool stories, you know, because when you make a character for a party you want them to be less interesting.

... Huh? How on earth do those two things correlate? I might as well say no banana splits after 2:30PM - hot fudge sundaes only! - because I'd rather you ride your bicycle than take the train.

If you want to force the player to only use the premade characters, you can simply force the player to only use premade characters. Why put those character creation tools in in the first place if you don't want people to use them? How come I'm allowed to make my own character for the normal single-player game if that's the "wrong" way to play?

This rationale simply doesn't hold water, and I hope Larian rethinks it sooner rather than later.

Last edited by Zombra; 28/08/16 11:42 PM.
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If you want to force the player to only use the premade characters, then you can simply force the player to only use premade characters


OHhh They are ALREADY doing that.

If you want to use the origin system, you have to use their premade characters :P

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
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If you want to force the player to only use the premade characters, then you can simply force the player to only use premade characters
OHhh They are ALREADY doing that. If you want to use the origin system, you have to use their premade characters :P

Haha, yes, but the point is that they're letting you choose whether or not to use the origin system for your Chosen One, but they're worried that if they give you that exact same choice in an ensemble format, somehow you will choose "wrong". So not only do they deny you that choice, they refuse to have a party-based mode altogether just to make sure you don't make that "wrong" choice. Yet you still have that same choice in the single character version of the game. The mind boggles.

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Part of the design is that the characters are supposed to be able to keep secrets from each other, and a lot of the design is focused on the idea that you'll surprise each other with your betrayals.

When Swen was participating in co-op with a friend, at one point this led to an awkward real-life conversation about the fact that Swen wanted to kill her temporarily so that he could advance the quest. At another point, he gave her a fake healing potion just to be a troll.

From seeing this, it's easy to see that the point of competitive questing is that it provides narrative motivations that help to foster rivalry between real players. Co-op is the entire point.

While it technically can work in single player, the experience they are trying to create is NOT a single player experience and they don't see it as improving the single player experience.

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Do not repeat the same mistakes of the first game.
Full party creation, I have no issues with this.
But do not treat SP like a 1-player MP session like in the first game.

Bartering, Identifying, Repairing should not require item transfers to the respective character.
Separate purses should be strictly MP only.
Do not make people suffer these useless micro-management in SP just because it's identical to a 1-Player MP session.


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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Part of the design is that the characters are supposed to be able to keep secrets from each other, and a lot of the design is focused on the idea that you'll surprise each other with your betrayals.

From seeing this, it's easy to see that the point of competitive questing is that it provides narrative motivations that help to foster rivalry between real players. Co-op is the entire point.

While it technically can work in single player, the experience they are trying to create is NOT a single player experience and they don't see it as improving the single player experience.

Eh, in other words, once again they don't want you to have fun with it in the "wrong" way. I strenuously object to that philosophy.

Last edited by Zombra; 29/08/16 01:41 AM.
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