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What is maxed out? I got over 20 but the negatives to my abilities seemed to not make sense so waiting to see if they are going to fix this or address it.


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If that is indeed true, the system is crap. Maybe only a bug, though (hopefully)


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The attribute system as it is now is not good. You have to put all points into your main stat or you get weaker.

I wish they use the system of D:OS1 again. Each ability has a "base value". If your stat is higher you get a bonus and if it is lower you get a penalty.

example: The low level fire spell "flare" has a base value of 7 and the high level spell "inferno" has a base value of 15. When the char has int 10, flare gets a small damage bonus and has a high chance to make the enemy burn while inferno does little damage and has a very low chance to cause burn. If you have int 20, inferno makes much more damage than flare.


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Originally Posted by Madscientist
The attribute system as it is now is not good. You have to put all points into your main stat or you get weaker.


It's worse than that. You get weaker ANYWAY because those two points are just to maintain the damage you were doing at level ONE. Health increases per level, so as enemies level increases, the amount of damage those level one power skills do to them becomes less and less effective.


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It's worse than that. You get weaker ANYWAY because those two points are just to maintain the damage you were doing at level ONE. Health increases per level, so as enemies level increases, the amount of damage those level one power skills do to them becomes less and less effective.

[/quote]

Actually as long as you're getting new weapons and equipment, I've noticed your damage steadily does go up (so long as you basically only put points into your main stat). However, I do hate this kind of system because, as many people have said, it makes multiclassing impossible. My hope is that when they next update the game they'll have seen a lot of the bugs and issues on the forums and fixed as many as they could, but it could be weeks till then.

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I can honestly say this probably isn't working as intended. The good thing is this alpha has only been out a short time and we nailed a major design issue no matter their intentions for this system the testing process will make a better game for release.

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[quote=Asgharm]
Actually as long as you're getting new weapons and equipment, I've noticed your damage steadily does go up (so long as you basically only put points into your main stat). However, I do hate this kind of system because, as many people have said, it makes multiclassing impossible. My hope is that when they next update the game they'll have seen a lot of the bugs and issues on the forums and fixed as many as they could, but it could be weeks till then. [/quote]

It's true that the overall damage increases as we get better weapons, but it eliminates any feeling of meaningful character progression. Instead of feeling like our characters are improving over time because they are getting faster or stronger or more intelligent, it just feels like they are trying to keep up and items are the only thing that matter for progression.

If there are any developers reading this, I want to point out that I think the game as a whole is really great, but the way the attributes work right now just doesn't feel very good. I understand the need to balance multi-classing - there has to be some "penalty" for the increased utility you get from hybridizing your character.

My big issue with the current system is the fact that it is possible to actually get weaker on a level up. It makes sense to me that the "penalty" for multiclassing is missing out on additional damage, but I think that once you reach a certain proficiency level you should not suddenly start doing less damage once you level up.

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Ok I thought a bit more abou it:

- Yes, you do get weaker even if you put all points in one main stat. One reason is diminishing returns. Even if you spend all points in one stat all the time and you stay above the "zero effect" value, the bonus from being above this value gets smaller and smaller.
Another reason is that even if your bonus stays the same, enemies and equipment get better. For example strengh reduces the movement penalty for heavy armor. Even if the bonus stays the same, high level armor gets heavier and your movement will get slower.
Whatever you do, you get weaker all the time. Putting all points in one stat reduces the weakining in one field, but this makes you very weak in all others.

I did some thinking about a better stat system:

- No more diminishing returns. All stats and skills have a linear effect, one point more or less gives always the same bonus or penalty. It worked like this in all other divinity games I have played (DD, D2, D:OS) and I see no reason to change it.

- Each char has a attack value and a defense value. They increase a little bit by leveling up. Putting points in a primary stat increases this attack value for weapons who need this stat. For example, you get +5 attack and defense per level and +3 per stat point. This a a numerical value, not % or something like that. I think that balancing might be good when you have about 80% hit chance when you put 1/3 of your points in a main stat and you hit almost always when you put half of your points into a main stat. Adding more points only increases damage a little bit.
Note that this calculation is only important when you do a normal attack against an enemy that is not CCed. Spells, special attacks and attacks against CCed enemies always hit anyway.

- Suggestions for what stats do: (X is a fixed number that must be selected in a way that the game is balanced. Each different X here can be a different number, its not always the same)

one point of strengh:
+ Increases attack value for strengh based weapons by X
+ increases damage of strengh based abilities by X %
+ reduces the movement penalty from equipment by X

one point of finesse:
+ increases attack value for finesse based weapons by X
+ Increases defense value by X
+ increases damage of finesse based abilities by X %

one point of intelligence:
+ increases attack value for intelligence based weapons by X
+ increases damage of spells by X %

One point of constitution:
+ Increases your Hit points by X (I am not sure if you should use a big fixed X (like 1 point con gives 20HP) or a small X per level ( like 1 point con gives 5HP per level). Remove the vitality skill.

Memory can stay as it is. 1 slot per point would be too much, 1 slot per 3 or more points might be too little.

One point of wits:
+ increases initiative by X
+ increases critical hit chance by X
+ A certain value of wits is needed to detect traps and secrets
- I see no reason why wits should increase magic armor, especially when there is no stat that increases physical armor (con would be the best choice for that)

- I think right now shield are almost useless. They give you some physical armor but you do less damage than a char with 2h or dual wielding, but they do not protect you from being hit. In D:OS1 shield and skill could give you a large chance to block attacks completely.
+ My suggestion: according to the system written above, a shield should give you some armor and also some defense value. So you have a significantly lower chance to get hit and if you get hit you are better protected.

- Dual wielding should give a large penalty to hit chance that can be avoiding by putting points in that skill. I think about how it worke in BG2 or KotoR1+2. I think dual wielding is too strong as it is.


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Originally Posted by SpartacusTGreat

If there are any developers reading this, I want to point out that I think the game as a whole is really great, but the way the attributes work right now just doesn't feel very good. I understand the need to balance multi-classing - there has to be some "penalty" for the increased utility you get from hybridizing your character.


I have to ask: what "increased utility" are you talking about? The addition of Memory as the limiting factor for total skill slots has already eliminated the utility factor from hybrid builds even before the other power limitations brought on by attributes.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by SpartacusTGreat

If there are any developers reading this, I want to point out that I think the game as a whole is really great, but the way the attributes work right now just doesn't feel very good. I understand the need to balance multi-classing - there has to be some "penalty" for the increased utility you get from hybridizing your character.


I have to ask: what "increased utility" are you talking about? The addition of Memory as the limiting factor for total skill slots has already eliminated the utility factor from hybrid builds even before the other power limitations brought on by attributes.


If you play hybrid you can skill Memory and have more abilitys as another Characters.But less Dmg.

I play currently with 3 charakters coop lvl 6
one tanky warlord one ranger and me as a Witch (with all mage schools)
and our ranger and me have skilled memory a couple time
and have -% dmg on our skills
but we still do 300+ dmg (ranger mostly more if he has snipe)
and if we dont need dmg i have frost armor,netherswap and teleport(awsome abilitys btw)

English is not my native language.Sry






Last edited by lukimuki; 17/09/16 08:04 PM.
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Id like an explanation from the devs on what the idea behind the stats system is. as it looks now the systems seems underwhelming, but we should not rule out the possibility that the system works as intended for some reasons we yet have to be explained (eg balancing in the long run)

Last edited by 4verse; 17/09/16 08:10 PM.

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If it works as intended then it is a crap mistake and needs to be fixed. I am not alone in thinking that.


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Was mostly busy pvp'ing in the arena, didn't notice this stuff actually, but if it is the way described in this topic, it's a total baseline fail and the stat system should be redone almost totally.

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Amen.


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I noticed this as well a couple days ago, and I also initially thought it was terrible. But I kept playing. I've just finished the EA and I've somewhat changed my mind on this.

A few things to point out:

- You get attribute bonuses from equipment. The equipment bonuses are random (except on unique items), but they work similar to Divinity: Original Sin 1, where each slot can only spawn with attributes from a small limited pool of possible attributes (i.e.: +Memory can spawn on helmets, but never on gloves). In practice, this means it's relatively easy to always have the bonuses you want after the initial early parts of the game. For reference, at the end of the EA I was level 7 and had +13 STR from equipment on my warrior, and +6~8 to FIN or INT on my other characters. This frees up attribute points on level-up to be spent elsewhere. I ended up spending about 4~6 points per character on other stats (usually Memory and Constitution), but could probably have spent more.

- I've been keeping track of what bonuses can spawn on what slot, and for the most part, the core attribute bonuses (so STR, FIN and INT) don't seem to overlap. The slots that get you INT, for example, never overlap with the slots than grant you STR (with the exception of your weapon slots). So - at least to some extent - it should be possible to have a functional hybrid build by balancing base stats and equipment bonuses.

- There's also unique items to consider. There's a purple pair of gloves in Act 1, for example, which gives +5 Strength and +2 Finesse. I just use it on my warrior, where the Finesse is wasted, but it would probably work wonders on a hybrid STR/FIN character. Presumably the final game will have many more such items.

- The equipment attribute bonuses scale with level. Up to level 6, you can get up to +2 to a core attribute on a single piece of equipment (barring unique items). At level 9, equipment starts spawning with +4s. Presumably as you get higher levels, the maximum bonus possible continues to increase. This also helps to offset the per-level penalties. It seems like the higher level you go, the easier it becomes to have a functioning hybrid build.

- At rank 6 (the maximum currently possible), the Leadership skill gives the entire party +10% accuracy. That gives some additional wiggle room with STR/FIN/INT investment. For reference, at the moment my Lv7 Rogue has 127% total accuracy, even though his Finesse gives him a -3% penalty.

- Several skills don't actually depend on your core attributes to function. You're definitely going to want to "go hybrid" to some extent for additional support skills. I've been using this to my advantage on every character: my Warrior uses Adrenaline/Fortify/Armor of Frost, my Rogue uses Tactical Retreat/Teleport/Battle Stomp/Armor of Frost, my Ranger uses Adrenaline/Teleport/Fortify/Armor of Frost/Restoration/Healing Ritual and my mage uses Rage/Tactical Retreat. Grenade damage also seems to ignore stats and be based entirely on your level, so you can use those on anyone (i.e. use Teleport + Armor-Piercing grenades on the mage to soften up targets for the warrior).

So putting all of the above together, I'm not terribly worried about this attribute system anymore. It took a while of playing the game to see it, but it does seem to work fine as is. It's just a bit strange at first and has odd quirks that take some getting used to. At very low levels, it seems unnecessarily restrictive, but it appears to even out as you level up. It's still possible there are problems in the long run - depending on how the scaling pans out - but that will only be apparent once the rest of the game is released. For what's available right now, I don't think it's really a problem.

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It still seems stupid and i disagree that it is an ok system.


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From a min-max standpoint, this attribute system is incredibly limiting. The only two builds that really work with this system is support caster and archers. Here is why I think so:

Anything that deals damage but can't stay extremely far from the fight (this includes casters since enemies can clear distance pretty easily now) is stuck between a rock and a hard place. You need HP to take any hits that might come your way but you need to stack all your attribute points into strength/finesse/intelligence just to maintain you damage (not even to increase it). You could sink combat points into vitality to still get an HP increase but then you miss out on your schools.

For a support caster, just take utility spells and only worry about hydrosophist (for heal increase) and geomancy (for physical armor restoration). All of you attribute points can go into constitution to make you healthy while you make sure to pick up a mixture of physical and magical armor. Take a shield too as I finally managed to find a shield that actually does give block chance so blocking is still in the game. If healthy enough and with a good enough shield, this build can support without having to worry too much about incoming damage.

For archers, sink all points into finesse to maintain damage. Sink all combat points into huntsman to increase your damage and range when you have the height advantage. This range bonus starts to get really insane, allowing you to effectively stay safe from combat, especially when combined with special arrows for CC. The damage bonus from the height also means that your damage is, basically, increasing each level.

The build this new system hurts the most is tanks. You need to sink points into HP to eat hits for your teammates. However, if you don't sink points into strength (and it takes both points to do this, I believe) then your accuracy and damage will continue to fall each level. Eventually you'll reach a point where you can no longer draw agro because you simply cannot hurt anything enough. On the flip side you can sink points into strength to avoid this but then you're basically a dps with a shield and don't have the hp to take the hits.

The system, as it is right now, definitely needs to be changed. If the goal was to prevent min-max builds and comps then it doesn't currently do so given the state of archers and support mages.

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Originally Posted by KaelanBG
I noticed this as well a couple days ago, and I also initially thought it was terrible. But I kept playing. I've just finished the EA and I've somewhat changed my mind on this.

A few things to point out:

- You get attribute bonuses from equipment. The equipment bonuses are random (except on unique items), but they work similar to Divinity: Original Sin 1, where each slot can only spawn with attributes from a small limited pool of possible attributes (i.e.: +Memory can spawn on helmets, but never on gloves). In practice, this means it's relatively easy to always have the bonuses you want after the initial early parts of the game. For reference, at the end of the EA I was level 7 and had +13 STR from equipment on my warrior, and +6~8 to FIN or INT on my other characters. This frees up attribute points on level-up to be spent elsewhere. I ended up spending about 4~6 points per character on other stats (usually Memory and Constitution), but could probably have spent more.


For the most part, equipment which has bonuses are ONLY available through RNG. I'm level 3 and have explored much of the fort interior areas, and I have found a bunch of chests now that I retrieved the Teleport gloves and such, but the RNG has not smiled on me and basically all the equipment I found is not good for any of my characters.

Relying on the RNG to provide 4 characters with the necessary bonuses to allow them to break even is not a great idea. Larian has said that they will not tune the drops to what your characters actually can use "because that means if you want to change what they do, then they won't have any drops". So the RNG will continue to not care about what your characters need.

Relying on the RNG also locks you into any good drops you find and makes you reluctant to change them if they are inferior in any way.


Originally Posted by Altros
You could sink combat points into vitality to still get an HP increase but then you miss out on your schools.


Vitality gives you only a worthless amount of HP. It won't help you survive.

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The way the attribute system currently works feels punishing rather than rewarding. It doesn't really matter that, with regard to balance, it may kinda-sorta "work" when taking equipment boni into consideration (if the RNG favors you, that is). It just feels wrong to have a system that causes you doing less damage after you level up unless you autistically pump a single prime stat.

Previously, my candidate for the worst character system was Oblivion, which has a weird system in which leveling up can make you end up weaker when you happen to cross a content scaling threshold. It also encourages to you tag your least used skilled as major skills in order to retain control over your leveling speed. Really, really stupid as well as counter-intuitive.

But D:OS2's system takes the cake. I've been playing CRPGs for almost 25 years now and the D:OS2 system is one of the worst attribute system I've ever seen, assuming it's working as intended and is not some sort of bug. Character development is a very important aspect of an RPG it should be rewarding and offer interesting choices rather than feel like a desperate struggle to just retain the status quo.

Frankly, I'm not having fun with this element of the game and that's a shame, considering how strong D:OS2 looks in all other areas. Larian should consider returning to the drawing board and do something more conventional with the attributes - assuming it's working as intended - because THIS is just horrible.

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Agreed!


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