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First of all, I should point out that sexism is not something that men do to women. Men do it to men, women do it to women. Everyone does it to everyone.

I appreciate you're disappointed that this research doesn't meet the highest scientific standards, but it's far more scientific than the moaning in this forum when anyone suggests... Well, anything at all. Swen confirmed in another post that they look at player data via the Early Access is order to get quantitative data on player behaviour. While I'm sure this is very useful, it certainly would be of a much lower scientific standard than the research I referred to.

I never claimed to represent the entire audience, but I an certainly one member of the audience. By telling me to "respect" the artist, you're not asking for respect, you're asking for silence. Any business that chooses to ignore feedback from customers does not respect it's customers. That doesn't mean they should bend over backwards to accommodate every demand, but they should be respectful of the feedback and give them a fair amount of consideration.

Also, I've criticised this posing as being disrespectful to people who believe that women should be more than just eye candy.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
...but it's far more scientific than the moaning in this forum when anyone suggests... Well, anything at all.
Maybe you should stop posting silly ideas, then you probably won't see any "moaning".

Originally Posted by Ayvah
I never claimed to represent the entire audience, but I an certainly one member of the audience. By telling me to "respect" the artist, you're not asking for respect, you're asking for silence. Any business that chooses to ignore feedback from customers does not respect it's customers. That doesn't mean they should bend over backwards to accommodate every demand, but they should be respectful of the feedback and give them a fair amount of consideration.

Also, I've criticised this posing as being disrespectful to people who believe that women should be more than just eye candy.
The moment you prove your demonstrably false opinion is fact, then I suppose people will take you more seriously. You're complaining that the pose of a video game model is disrespectful because of your own bias that anything remotely sexual is negative, a sexist bias at that because there are men with similar poses but only the women are eye candy. Not just that but you're the only one that can't see the women past the poses, do you realize that? Everyone else that disagreed with you can see that as sexualized as they may be(which they hardly are) they are incredibly powerful sourcerers , the next Godwoken and YOU only see sexualized women.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
First of all, I should point out that sexism is not something that men do to women. Men do it to men, women do it to women. Everyone does it to everyone.

I appreciate you're disappointed that this research doesn't meet the highest scientific standards, but it's far more scientific than the moaning in this forum when anyone suggests... Well, anything at all. Swen confirmed in another post that they look at player data via the Early Access is order to get quantitative data on player behaviour. While I'm sure this is very useful, it certainly would be of a much lower scientific standard than the research I referred to.

I never claimed to represent the entire audience, but I an certainly one member of the audience. By telling me to "respect" the artist, you're not asking for respect, you're asking for silence. Any business that chooses to ignore feedback from customers does not respect it's customers. That doesn't mean they should bend over backwards to accommodate every demand, but they should be respectful of the feedback and give them a fair amount of consideration.

Also, I've criticised this posing as being disrespectful to people who believe that women should be more than just eye candy.


So, just jumping in here, but let me see if I got the gist going on here:
- You criticize poses and armor models...mostly on the female models and with a marginal mention of male elves
- You're specifically pointing to the unrealistic elements that "over sexualize" things while disregarding realism or just generally make no sense (ie Bikini Armor or Twig/leaf armor of elves)
- People call you out and bring in SJW claims and generally try to invalidate/argue with your feed back on claims of the high fantasy elements and ultimately that the artists get final say or should get the only say in representing their ideal
- Sexism discussions on the topic are brought in and how it's historically evident in such genres and so on
- You used the old cover art for D:OS as an example of what you meant and how they "fixed" it after feedback
- You are now calling out to the fact that your feedback as part of their audience is authentic as a customer and that all feedback should be considered

Is that the basically everything? Just want to make sure I understand before putting my two cents in.

EDIT: Let me preface that I don't agree with your original stances really but I respect your ability to give feedback and be listened to enough that I want to make sure that my own words on the topic are on point to the discussion(s) at hand

Last edited by aj0413; 28/09/16 12:52 AM.
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I think my opinions on this, as a (full disclosure) gay male feminist of the moderate branch ... is that we should have multiple options in how we want to represent our characters along a continuum of "sexualized" to "practical."


Lets be frank. The current models for the female elf has very little options to not dress up as a sexualized character.

If I want to make a female elf currently, I do NOT have an option of playing a well armored, tribal warrior elf, for example. Why would I want my character's bare ass showing just asking for an arror or blade? Have you SEEN how much fire is in this game? Not to mention the sunburns.

Similarly, if I want my male human to be able to show some skin, I'm also at a loss besides stripping down and forgoing major stat loss.

What we need are some armor models that reflect multiple tastes. Nothing should be the "default" that you are stuck with simply because "thats just how they are," especially if the default is inherently "the sexy turned to 11."


Does this take more work on the model mesh creators?

Sure.

Is it something we should expect out of a modern, progressive game stuido?

Absolutely!


I want to have my battle-armored women. My scantally glad androgenous male assassins. My burly warriors in lion cloths, ladies or men. I want my sexually dimorphic lizards without boobs. I want my bearded dwarf women and men.

The more options people have to generate unique, interesting, and still lore-appropriate characters, all the better.

There is no reason why we cannot have variety of body types and gender representations present in the game so that EVERYONE can play what they deem appropriate.


...

All that said, can we ALL please agree that this not only looks ridiculous, but painful, and that poor character's face is practically screeming "kill me, please. It will be a mercy." LOL

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6LnJ4-WjK-CMGs0dlB5WXM3Y2M/view?usp=sharing

Last edited by Swiftwynd; 28/09/16 04:29 AM.
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I haven't criticised the male elf poses at all at this point.

I haven't done a full analysis of all the poses in the game. However, I have done a direct comparison of the male and female inquisitor poses, and I have invited suggestions of any male poses that fit the label of "elegant" (in the sense of a ballet dancer) or "sexy".

I have excluded elves from this exercise. Aside from the fact that they can generally be seen as sexualized simply by their across the board near-nakedness, elves can easily be generalised as elegant. So it's easy to justify in context.

The point here is that I don't see any justification for why the human female inquisitor is something that should be typecast as "elegant".

Also, while I have criticised the armour of elves generally (for reasons completely unrelated to sexism), this discussion has been moved to the several threads discussing elves and armour specifically.

Other than that, you've got a good handle of it.

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Also, although I know this is going to sound incredibly nit-picky to some ...


I went through every single female Human pose.

There is a very subtle thing that is often done in advertising that most people don't pick up on, but its what I call the"hip drift."

If you look at the male poses, most of the poses are an "action" stance, or he appears prepared to "DO" something.

Now, look at the female stances, and I challenge you to find any pose in which the female's hips are actually firmly planted in an anatomically appropriate "even with the ground, not tilted to one side" pose.

There are literally none. Even the Warrior pose, which appears to be the most battle-ready pose, STILL has her little "sassy hip to her right."

Compare that with every male's pose, and there are very few "unbalanced, not ready to fight" poses, and very few with any "hip to the side" stances (Inquisitor slightly, and Knight slightly, but this is due to his overly masculine "this is mah swwwword" type pose).



Its small, subtle things like this that communicate a message of "I'm feminine, this is what feminine battle ready women look like. I'm going to look distractedly off in the distance and use my weapon as a prop to accentuate my body."


Now, this does happen in some of the male poses as well, in which their weapons and armor "frame" their masculine features, E.G. the Knight or the Battlemage trying to strike overtly masculine cliche poses as well, so its not strictly a female model issue.


Contrast some of these poses to the Female Dwarf. Most of her stances are firm, she assertively looks forward, most of the time her weapon is at the ready.

These are poses of a gritty, battle hardened woman ready to take it to the foes and crack some skulls.

There is a good balance of "assertive and martial" poses and some more flippant carefree poses, such as the Knight, as well as some more whimsical and asymmetrical poses such as the inquisitor.

Whats more, there is good parody between the genders on the dwarf. Look at both Knight poses. They both basically convey the same emotion of "pfft, I got this, piece of cake. I can afford to be lax, but I'm ready to go at a moment's notice." Neither gender is posing with their weapon in a way that suggests "im here to look good."

The Dwarf female inquisitor is really about the only female dwarf pose in which she doesn't look like she's ready to engage a foe, being all distracted with her telekinetic twirling.


If you want a funny comparison, the dwarf Female has far more in common with the posing used for Erza Scarlet, a popular anime character in a show called Fairy Tail.

While ironically this character is often HYPER sexualized by the creator and used in many fan-service style poses and shots, her actual battle poses are generally VERY well drawn, balanced, powerful, and interesting. The showcase her weapons, her stance, her moves, and her reactions to forces that impact her well.

Just check a quick goggle list, and try to avoid the fan-made pics smile

https://www.google.com/search?q=erz...UIBigB#tbm=isch&q=erza+scarlet+anime

Here is another example of a good pose, realistic armor, and in my opinion a quite stylish and simple piece of art:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/06/56/6e/06566e91beb9f84d68fa95ed2cfe2358.jpg

Last edited by Swiftwynd; 28/09/16 05:07 AM.
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Alrighty then, now that I know I have a handle on things, let me throw my two cents in:

Let me begin by stating that:
Yes, I have many issues with "SJW" movements and a majority of self identified feminists. This has to do with the loudest in the group most of the time being the dumbest. I know that not all liberals, feminists, ect... are bad people or anything; the "bad ones" as it were have given a bad name to the group in my mind though. In that vain, I don't see in SJW in these threads...by definition they would be crusader like personalities simply spewing both hate and aggression <- concerned parties of a certain mindset is how I'd label Ayvah, even if his origin point does have commonalities with SJW groups and the rhetoric they spew. He's allowed to have an opinion and give his feedback; same as anyone else. An SJW would be those people who sent hate mail and threats and so on back during the original cover art reveal for D:OS.

Moving on:
Yes, high fantasy gaming is commonly over sexualizing and over dramatizing females (Bikini Amror for instance and the poses). Is this wrong, though? I'd say no. The point of high fantasy characters have always been to represent ideals and and overly fantasied lives the players could live. This generally means a guy is the ideal for masculinity and a woman is similarly the one for femininity. This carries over in their representation of what people think is attractive (ie muscles, toned bellies, crurvy bodies, ect..). Added to this is the idea that femininity is linked with sensuality...thus bikini armor and certain poses. Masculinity is generally linked with being tough and strong....thus full plate male and more bulky bodies. This is easily mirrored in D:OS character models; which is as it should be given that the game is meant to go back to gaming roots. It's a game made to cater to older standards of idealism and over exaggeration....not modern culture. A game such as this (where one tip toes in barrels when you sneak and hammer potatoes to cook) is not meant to be taken seriously...over analyzing such concepts of a pose being painful in reallife or not will only lead to questions concerning elf armor and the crafting system and the fact that all the melee moves are over dramatized and so on.

This leads into the question of whether or not Divinity has been unfair in how it exaggerated females models more than guys. This again goes back, partially, to what people think of as attractive, traditionally, for the two genders. Guys like seeing a woman in bikini armor striking a sexy pose......Women like seeing the stoic strong guy twirling his massive sword impressively. Also, there's the fact attractive poses of men and women are fundamentally different: generally women contort themselves more to create curves. Context here is important.

Sexualization =/= bad in all context. High fantasy gaming meant to be over the top and fun is one such, I feel.

Now, despite all this:
Yes, the amour morphing bothers me....twigs really? Maybe I want my elf in full plate. And yes, I've always had plenty of issues with bikini armor cause I prefer greater realism in my games, normally....it just makes no sense how it works; is the enemy magically enamored to only target the armoured bits?

Given all this:
I don't really feel like Larian is wrong to present there characters in any way they like. They have a certain idea they want to shoot for and should be allowed to reach for it; it certainly fits the game theme and inspires some humor in how over the top it is (my mage in D:OS is the buffies bookworm in the world).

Modern RPG games generally provide a plethora of options in avatar appearance and some even include stances and poses. This is good; it's inclusive of all parties and every one can be happy. The problem is that this takes both resources and generally means less focus is given elsewhere. Everybody would be happy with more character options in this game...everybody would be happier with this in any game, I dare say.

The question is, though, if *this* game *needs* it. At the moment, I don't think so. The developers are going for certain thematic concepts and appearances that tie into the game play experience; both in lore(ie elves in twigs) and feelings that are inspired (be they humor or whatnot -> ie buff men). Whether there current character models achieve the goal(s) they set out to do should be the criteria by which the models are judged, I'd say.

- Do the current armor/poses make you feel especially like you represent a man or a woman? A certain race? A certain class?
- Do they inspire idealized masculinity and/or femininity? Is it funny and/or engaging?
- Does each avatar feel unique? Are they fun to watch and use?

Realism, sexism, reality, functionality, and so on don't really have a place there at the moment. If they move to give more options that'd be great but I wouldn't wanting them to focus too much on this as a main topic at the moment.

Last edited by aj0413; 28/09/16 05:17 AM.
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The part I disagree with in the above is simply if you don't have a creative space to really express how you want your character to be like.

I understand that resources are limited, but there was a clear design choice to go for twig armor instead of badass full bark-plate ala some Sylvari Armor in Guild Wars 2.

That is a decision Larion and their artists made, so if they have to work a bit harder to create additional art assets to provide some actual "protective" looking elf armor for both sexes, that is their own doing and they should take the time to create a variety to satisfy people like you and I who WOULD like to make a protected looking elf if we wish to.




I do strongly disagree that "harking back to old RPGs" is at all an excuse to not provide a variety of representations to choose from.

We have pixel art games that are throw back as well, namely Stardew Valley, that are made on a fraction of a budget and they still manage to allow exceptional amount of freedom in your character's expression of their gender. You can literally play a trans character if you so wish by selecting the opposite gender's clothing, you can marry who you wish, and the game provides options to fully cater to essentially anyone.


Its 2016, and there really is not a valid "rational" for why twig armor can pass for "the only option for heavy armor" on a character, of either gender. If its a neat option, sure, but if its the default and exclusive option? Hell no.


Games are a medium. They are a creation born of a creative process. Sometimes it is good practice to evaluate your process through multiple lenses to see how others may view your finished product. Currently, I can understand how MANY potential customers would view the current elf models and armor options as "pandering" where as we have other, wonderful models like the female dwarf and Lizard who have a great variety of options, poses, and are much more unique.


We really should expect better on the Elves. Their current models really don't convey how cool their culture is or really how distinct and unique their armor COULD look.

Last edited by Swiftwynd; 28/09/16 05:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
I'll say what I always say when these things come up - make it the same. If the armor is revealing, make it revealing for both genders, if the pose is over the top, make the exact same over the top pose for both gender etc. just make it the same.



This is exactly what I'm all for. If you are going to have outlandish poses, imagine the opposite sex in the same pose.

If it looks "silly or funny" when a man does it, why do we expect a woman to do it?

Sure, if its equal on both fronts, then that can just be considered a quirky pose or a funny referential thing potentially. I'm allll for that. But if you see a consistent pattern in which either gender is being framed in a specific way, that's a problem in my book.

https://www.pinterest.com/arthes1881/men-posing-like-women/


Just a clear example of gender-bending some traditional advertising poses clearly shows that it looks down right ridiculous when you place it in a "male context."

The same is less true for the inverse. I have spent the past 10 minutes trying multiple filters with google searching to find "women striking male pose" and its damn impossible to find anything.


Its not Larion's fault exclusively that they portray a large portion of their female models and poses in a very common gendered way, as its all over traditional media, but would be rather nice to have at least some parity between the genders if it is going to be so prevalent.

What if I want my human/elf female to be a "wise older lady" who does cater to this bullshit and just wants to curse a mother fucker with necrofire?





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@Swiftwynd
See, what you're saying is fine and all, but it's founded on the premise that modern gaming must give full control over character representation. That the times have changed and the industry with it; such that gamers deserve, and should definitely be given, a large spectrum of choice in avatars.

That's a fundamental point that, I think, we disagree on. I love choice and I certainly don't prefer games that don't give me great control over my avatar, normally, but it's not always mandatory either; Witcher 3 or Diablo is a keen example of this.

"Harking back to old RPGS" and high fantasy isn't an excuse to limit choice but an explanation to explain why they chose the spectrum of choices they did give. Excuse implies that they have to justify or apologies for something and an explanation simply implies and elaboration on reasoning given. The former isn't always later unless you choose to interpret it as such. As you said they made their choices, and just as we can criticize or praise them for it, that doesn't make them inherently wrong for having others disagree with it.

*shrug* I actually do feel that the current models make the elves distinct. Whether or not they look cool or could be better though is an opinion. You know mine and I know yours, but a this point I think it comes down to what the majority of their audience thinks....which is what the EA is for :P Feedback

Edit: As for gender framing being a problem, I point to my original points on high fantasy...it's not a problem in my opinion. On this, I feel, it's basically coming down to your sensibilities and political and philosophical stances. You're on the right track arguing for more options being wanted..now it's just a case of convincing people it should be a priority....I don't think arguing wrongness though is how you should do it; that's an opinion. The old elf lady spewing curses is a good example of more options being desirable. But if age was part of your avatar options, wouldn't you want story elements to show that? Each new option in this game adds exponentially more resources. It's an important point to consider.

Greater armor options would be much easier to include though I think and would satisfy many

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Originally Posted by Swiftwynd
Just a clear example of gender-bending some traditional advertising poses clearly shows that it looks down right ridiculous when you place it in a "male context."

The same is less true for the inverse. I have spent the past 10 minutes trying multiple filters with google searching to find "women striking male pose" and its damn impossible to find anything.

Do you remember a big controversy (very similar to the one in this thread) over a certain spiderwoman cover?

http://i.imgur.com/aLBEC1H.png

Everyone had a fit about that pose, but it had nothing to do with gender... People just want an excuse to be outraged. Can you find a comic book cover featuring a female character in this pose?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61UZP8y69eL._SY445_.jpg

Originally Posted by Swiftwynd
What if I want my human/elf female to be a "wise older lady" who does cater to this bullshit and just wants to curse a mother fucker with necrofire?

You can't expect that level of RP to be represented visually by the game. At a certain point you're going to have to invoke your imagination and suspension of disbelief. This has nothing to do with gender.

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You are still going at it?
Making up more nonsense? "Hip drift" my ass.

Gotta give one thing to you, your kind never gives up no matter how stupid you sound.

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I suppose what bothers me a bit about stuff like this is the assertion that others know better than I do what I should find offensive. And if I say I don't find it offensive, there's sometimes a bit of a vibe of "shush woman, the men are talking".


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Originally Posted by vometia
I suppose what bothers me a bit about stuff like this is the assertion that others know better than I do what I should find offensive. And if I say I don't find it offensive, there's sometimes a bit of a vibe of "shush woman, the men are talking".


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

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I finally worked up the effort to make a forum account to say this is the funniest thread I have read in years, don't stop now.

Who knew such little things could result in such a fiery argument?

I kinda want a Larian dev to stroll in and say the poses are placeholder so you have all been wasting your time :D

Either way correct me if I am wrong, the poses only show up during character creation and never after that right? I thought they were humorous rather than anything else and I feel its a bit excessive to get heat up over something that has such a small appearance in the game. I also wonder if its only males taking apparent offence to this? what do females think?

Last edited by SacredDark; 28/09/16 01:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by vometia
I suppose what bothers me a bit about stuff like this is the assertion that others know better than I do what I should find offensive. And if I say I don't find it offensive, there's sometimes a bit of a vibe of "shush woman, the men are talking".


Well that's the classic "If you're not with us then you are against us" thing for you. It's all about acting or thinking "proper" else we shun you. Not sure if gender has any real play in it though beyond surface issues or cheap attempts at insults, it's just cultural authoritarians of different kinds who like to attack what they feel are problematic subcultures with claims of moral superiority on their part. It's basically the modern version of aristocrats looking down on what they feel are filthy people with filthy practices.

I'm being hyperbolic here of course but you get my drift

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Originally Posted by Sordak
You are still going at it?
Making up more nonsense? "Hip drift" my ass.

Gotta give one thing to you, your kind never gives up no matter how stupid you sound.


This should be the ending statement for the thread.

I still think it's just a big troll, the "sexism is everywhere" part should have made clear this is an obvious joke.

Last edited by Lyrhe; 28/09/16 02:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lyrhe
Originally Posted by Sordak
You are still going at it?
Making up more nonsense? "Hip drift" my ass.

Gotta give one thing to you, your kind never gives up no matter how stupid you sound.


This should be the ending statement for the thread.

I still think it's just a big troll, the "sexism is everywhere" part should have made clear this is an obvious joke.


But sexism is still a part of most, if not all, societies though. Both against women and men. As much as we would all like to believe in social progress I don't think we've reached the point where sexism is completely erased everywhere.

To get on topic, the poses are indeed pretty ridiculous and I wouldn't mind them changing them. They're only shown in the character creation screen too, so any changes made would only minimally and aesthetically affect the game. I don't see why people are making such an uproar over such a low-consequence suggestion.

Last edited by cae37; 28/09/16 06:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by cae37
Originally Posted by Lyrhe
Originally Posted by Sordak
You are still going at it?
Making up more nonsense? "Hip drift" my ass.

Gotta give one thing to you, your kind never gives up no matter how stupid you sound.


This should be the ending statement for the thread.

I still think it's just a big troll, the "sexism is everywhere" part should have made clear this is an obvious joke.


But sexism is still a part of most, if not all, societies though. Both against women and men. As much as we would all like to believe in social progress I don't think we've reached the point where sexism is completely erased everywhere.

To get on topic, the poses are indeed pretty ridiculous and I wouldn't mind them changing them. They're only shown in the character creation screen too, so any changes made would only minimally and aesthetically affect the game. I don't see why people are making such an uproar over such a low-consequence suggestion.


You are right.

How about you go to Saudi Arabia then and go fight sexism where it actually exists, rather than in video games where you have to come up with increasinlgy ridiculous accusations to make people believe its there.

No?

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@Sordak

You're either completely ignorant or unwilling to be informed if you truly believe that sexism is completely absent from American media, including video games.

Additionally, your Saudi Arabia argument is such a cheap one to make. We could all be doing better things with our time than bringing up our personal issues with the game, but since gaming is something we enjoy so much we choose to do so anyway. OP's and my opinion are valid regardless of how much you want to belittle it.

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