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Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Lyrhe] #590509
01/10/16 12:18 AM
01/10/16 12:18 AM
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Ayvah Offline

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Originally Posted By: Lyrhe
Originally Posted By: Sordak
tumblr hair and problem glasses. kekd.

If thats the "diversity" you want then no, i want none of that.


Click to reveal..


It's nature trying to warn us.

This post is filled with prejudices.

Look, I don't find them particularly attractive. That's fine though, we're all allowed to have our own taste in what we find attractive. I also understand the desire to have characters in a game fit your ideals when it comes to female sexuality. I'm sure you'd also like the men to be somewhat attractive as fits your personal ideals, so you can feel more comfortable wearing their skin. I presume that none of the women from your image are likely to visit these forums, but none of this is any excuse for prejudice or personal attacks.

Personally, I don't think Overwatch provides a good reference point. An explicit component of its design is diversity. This is particularly clear when you observe that it includes, for example, a New Zealand Maori character as part of a cast of very diverse nationalities.

However, the first thing we need to recognise is that characters exist to serve the narrative, particularly in a story-driven example like D:OS or MGSV, so it's highly jarring when a character's design is based on external factors instead of the character's narrative role. This jarring feeling changes into discomfort when you then have to reflect on those external factors and realise that they actually have sexist origins.

A female warrior should be idealised for her strength. A female mage/scholar should be idealised for her intellect. If you find her strength or intellect sexy, then good for you. If not, then get over it.

Men get to be idealised for strength and be sexy because of their strength, not in spite of it. This a big part of the problem of catering to traditional ideals of sexiness. It's true that men should also have the freedom to be idealised in traditionally feminine roles (such as ballet), and perhaps there's room to style both men and women in this manner for the "finesse" roles.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590513
01/10/16 01:04 AM
01/10/16 01:04 AM
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Skallewag Offline
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Why is it that people "should" be idealized by certain aspects? Are you trying to argue that men and women should be idealized to the same degree for the same things?

Why? Why should that be? Do you believe there are no differences between men and women?
Because if you are able to see how men and women are different in many many aspects, why would you expect them to have the same strengths or weakneses, and to be idealized for the same things?

If we pit 1.000.000 people from Kenya in a long distance race with 1.000.000 people from Japan, do you think one of those groups would perform statisticly better than the other? Could it be that they are different in this regard?

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590515
01/10/16 01:08 AM
01/10/16 01:08 AM
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Bubsy1127 Offline
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I just wanna ask why people care so much about a pose you see for, at most, 10 minutes?

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Bubsy1127] #590520
01/10/16 01:32 AM
01/10/16 01:32 AM
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Skallewag Offline
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For the same reason they complained about how video games made kids violent, or before that how the wrong kind of music would make you worship the devil.

There will always be moral authoritarians around shrieking about one thing or another. Its just a matter of playing whackamole untill they go away for the moment.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590525
01/10/16 02:24 AM
01/10/16 02:24 AM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Skallewag
For the same reason they complained about how video games made kids violent, or before that how the wrong kind of music would make you worship the devil.

There will always be moral authoritarians around shrieking about one thing or another. Its just a matter of playing whackamole untill they go away for the moment.


The problem with the current generation of them is that they ridiculize the cause of "equality" to a degree where it's hard to tell it apart from a massive joke.

Just look at Ayvah can you take anything serious from him/her? Besides only circlejerking around "dats sexist" i couldn't find a single worthwile argument that isn't based on personal views, subjective perception and downright trollposting. I know I'm getting baited but just look at:

Originally Posted By: Ayvah
This post is filled with prejudices.


It's difficult not to take the bait after starting a counter argumentation with a downright killer-statement that so wrong in itself that you don't even notice the complete lack of arguments behind it. Instead he/she jumps right to a PERSONAL narrative of PERSONAL opinnions. Why everyone else should have less of what he/she doesn't like.

Originally Posted By: Ayvah
However, the first thing we need to recognise is that characters exist to serve the narrative, particularly in a story-driven example like D:OS or MGSV, so it's highly jarring when a character's design is based on external factors instead of the character's narrative role.


I don't even... what is that even supposed to tell us? A character isn't just the developers tool to show you an interactive movie. It's the god damn players avatar to interact with the given narrative - that includes in the very definition a design of external factors. That includes the stylization of an aesthetic beauty standard.

Except you telling me a woman can't be a hero and fighter without avoiding her given sex and the identity connected to that. BTW, that would be pretty sexist from you.

Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Men get to be idealised for strength and be sexy because of their strength, not in spite of it. This a big part of the problem of catering to traditional ideals of sexiness.


And again we go; stop liking what I don't like. This time against all norms and the standard of what we find attractive. Which is infact hardcoded into our genes.

There's a reason why most people don't find fat persons attractive and why females prefer the athletic guy with muscles and prominent bone structure. Why guys doing ballette and wearing tutu's aren't exactly popular when it comes to partnersearch.

Originally Posted By: Ayvah
It's true that men should also have the freedom to be idealised in traditionally feminine roles (such as ballet), and perhaps there's room to style both men and women in this manner for the "finesse" roles.


Thats a privilege of our western cultural luxury and after your own arguments doesn't fit inside the narrative of a medieval world fighting over a forbidden dark magic and struggling for survival between apocalyptic events, wars and insane kings.

No thanks.

Last edited by Lyrhe; 01/10/16 02:26 AM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590530
01/10/16 02:37 AM
01/10/16 02:37 AM
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Skallewag Offline
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It is as you say actually impossible to tell if these kinds of opinions are being posted for trolling purposes or by someone dead serious. The way I see it its enough that some people actually believe their vacuous arguments about how terribly sexist art is. Since not all of them are trying to be clowns, and they sometimes actually manage to garner some influence or change that means someone needs to point out and counter their bullshit. Sometimes a troll might get what they want, but I think its better to counter one more SJW nonsense thread isntead of starting an investigation to try to separate fake insane persons from actually insane people. ^^

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590532
01/10/16 02:47 AM
01/10/16 02:47 AM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Skallewag
It is as you say actually impossible to tell if these kinds of opinions are being posted for trolling purposes or by someone dead serious. The way I see it its enough that some people actually believe their vacuous arguments about how terribly sexist art is. Since not all of them are trying to be clowns, and they sometimes actually manage to garner some influence or change that means someone needs to point out and counter their bullshit. Sometimes a troll might get what they want, but I think its better to counter one more SJW nonsense thread isntead of starting an investigation to try to separate fake insane persons from actually insane people. ^^


Right you are.

It just irritates me that somwhere a guy like this:
Click to reveal..


Sits infront of his screen smirking about how many people took that bait.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590533
01/10/16 02:54 AM
01/10/16 02:54 AM
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aj0413 Offline
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All hail Merlin and hit hot copious magic!

@Lyrhe
You, sir, deserve a million +1's for your well made point by point counters

Also, this thread might be a crap thread but it's like watching a slow car crash at this point :P It maintains interest for some inane reason

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Skallewag] #590535
01/10/16 02:58 AM
01/10/16 02:58 AM
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Ayvah Offline

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Originally Posted By: Skallewag
If we pit 1.000.000 people from Kenya in a long distance race with 1.000.000 people from Japan, do you think one of those groups would perform statisticly better than the other? Could it be that they are different in this regard?

If you took 1 million people from Australia and pitted them against 1 million people from America, which group would be statistically better at swimming? (Hint: Not the Americans)

The problem with this is that any genetic variations are minor when compared to the cultural differences between these places. You'd have to convince many Americans (or Australians) to get up off their fat butts first before we can even start to understand their athletic potential.

Bringing this back on topic, the athletic disparity between genders is much bigger than any apparent differences between races. But that does not mean we shouldn't respect a strong woman for her strength. And given that we are intellectually equal, there is absolutely no justification for not respecting a woman for her intelligence.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590536
01/10/16 03:16 AM
01/10/16 03:16 AM
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Lyrhe Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
And given that we are intellectually equal, there is absolutely no justification for not respecting a woman for her intelligence.


Actually there's a proven big difference in how men and woman perform in different fields of intellectual tasks. Most men, for example, have an easier time with geometrical mathematics.

There are a lot of other things that sepperate the two biological sexes, viewed in a neuroscientific way.

Woman are better in:
- Optical tasks where it comes to remembering small details
- Are more fluid with languages and have an easier time picking new words and languages up
- Exact calculations
- Motor function of the hand

- And they have a higher speed of perception

Men are better in:
- Ability to abstract
- Mathematical deducations and conclusions
- Target oriented precise throwing and catching
- Optical abilities to perceive hidden objects

Originally Posted By: Ayvah
But that does not mean we shouldn't respect a strong woman for her strength.


I can't remember anyone saying something against that, are you arguing against strawmans again?

Last edited by Lyrhe; 01/10/16 03:20 AM.
Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Ayvah] #590538
01/10/16 03:25 AM
01/10/16 03:25 AM
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Skallewag Offline
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Its facinating how that makes sense in your mind. So you rightfully acknowledge that the differences between men and women are significantly greater than whatever genetic differences can be observed in different ethnic groups, and yet somehow this should not influence peoples general impression of men and women?

Women are generally not associated with great physical strength because it is a much more uncommon trait, and even when women who do show an exceptional level of physical capacity show less of it than her male counterpart would. This means that what you are arguing is that games should take a trait that is a much more commonly displayed trait in one sex than the other and focus equally on this characteristic for both sexes. Again we return to the question why? Why should things be presented this way?

Also on a quick side not regarding intelligence, have you actually looked on any of the data for this?
It is true as you say that there is no significant difference in intelligence based on sex. There is however a difference in intelligence distribution. If you draw a bellcurve of intelligence distribution for men and women, you get a noticable gender difference. Women are more centered around the middle of the curve, while men have more representation at both the high and low edge of the curve.
So at the top levels of intellectual performance, there are actually statistically more men than women, but the same is also true for the very low end of the scale. More men than women.

Another point about intelligence is that it seems to work a bit differently for men and women. Take the top level or math prodigys for example. Men who are really gifted with math often have a much more specialized area of mental capacity. Their math genious comes at the cost of language and social skills. (So kind of the rainman stereotype.)
Women with great mathematical talent on the other hand do not display this pattern. They tend to be just as linguistically and socially gifted as they are mathematically gifted.

Now what do you think that means for the top level of math as an academic field? Even if there was a 50/50 distribution bewteen male and female math geniouses (which there isn't, but for arguments sake) if the men in this category of intelligence tend to be limited to their one gift in life and struggle in other areas, how likely do you think it is that they will end up spending their life on that specific talent?
Now look at an equal number of women with the same talent for math, but who also have a bunch of other options equally open to them because they are just generally gifted, would you find it suprising if not all of them chose to focus their lives on their mathematical talent?

Men and women are different, and thus are perceived differently. Im sorry if you are unable to deal with that fact, but you have yet to produce an actual argument for why the video game industry in general and this game in particular ought to display things differently than it is currently.

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Philomorph] #590564
01/10/16 05:59 AM
01/10/16 05:59 AM
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Grondoth Offline
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Jesus christ

Re: Character poses seem a bit ridiculous - esp female [Re: Grondoth] #590565
01/10/16 06:11 AM
01/10/16 06:11 AM
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aj0413 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grondoth
Jesus christ


Jesus got bored and left a while ago :P

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