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I think the OP is a troll and got exactly what was wanted.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.



not realy they arent.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
If you think that D:OS characters were attractive, then I don't even know where to start.


symmetrical angular faces and muscular physique are considered attractive by many people.
tastes are different and such.
Original Sin 2s faces in general tend to be more... universally unattractive, having wrinkles, irregularities and whatnot.
Not that such faces shouldnt exist, you can make interresting characters with that.

Just not... only such faces.

Which incidently is another one of my criticisms of bioware games: they make their characters ugly on purpose.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
They really understand the importance of good storytelling.


Hardcore porn understand the importance of storytelling. It understands that porn doesnt need any.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
I guess no one noticed the OPs "You can say all you want about how the men are dressed the same for the elves, but it’s not equivalent in any way." right, or you could understand my 'here we go again'.

The OP basically outright stated the same is true for males, and they discard that since instead of actual discussion or thinking this is bad they need to feel victimnised. And just throwing away those good legit reasons why there is no victimisation.

Going all "everyone else looks the same, but let's ignore that and go all the way into my boohoo" is not exactly going to win my sympathy. It's making you look like someone without a clue.



Pretty much this. Women and men are depicted in the same way but women are discriminated against nonetheless. If that is not a sexist point of view I dont know what else is.


"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
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A race of beings is presented evenly in their attire and it's somehow still offensive to some people.

I mean forget that they're a bunch of monstrous cannibals, forget that their people were enslaved by the lizards. No it's the clothing, specifically the clothing of the females which is the exact same levels of revealing as the males, that's then problem.

Get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by vometia
I can't say I'm bothered by it: I actually think it's a pretty interesting design. What does bother me is when people talk about women gamers and what offends us rather than with us. Not saying that's the case here, but I have seen it happen and have felt almost chastised for speaking up when there's a man to speak on my behalf.


I very much agree with your point here. I've seen on various occasions men "standing up for women" by sort of just going on and on about something while multiple women are trying to discus something else entirely. A lot of the discussion of Bayonetta 2 was plagued by this. Not that I think Beyonetta is perfect but that's a whole other discussion.

And while I acknowledge that my first post did speak for several women I know I do not wish to claim that women are all in agreement on the subject or that I speak for anyone other then those that I do know and even then I intend to try my best to not use them as a prop for my own arguments.

Originally Posted by mesmerizedish

Like, does the elf appearance perpetuate some great social ill? I'm pretty certain that, in this specific case, the answer is no. But that doesn't invalidate any discomfort it may cause someone.


I would argue that it does. It's hardly Monster Monpiece but this sort of thing very much drives people away from the game and into media where they feel either less objectified or less infantilized by the frankly childish (in my view at the very least) way the elves are portrayed here. And while it might not be a "Great" social ill I feel it very much plays into one

Now onto some more general points:

"Something something The Witcher 3!"

I don't really have any major issues with The Witcher 3 from what I've seen and played of it. I would even say it's an example of what Vometia was talking about. It certainly does better then the first one with it's collectable sex cards. I will note that I know a few people who refused to buy The Witcher 3 because of how gross they found that aspect of The Witcher.

"If it wasn't the first thing you see in the game this would be fine!"

This one is as much a criticism of my own post as anything so sorry if it sounds like I'm being snarky at the expense of others. But really the issue here is that it is the only option. And here's the thing, there's really no way that this makes sense in the first place because no culture is going to evolve such a way that they will refuse to wear armor. Not after the first time they watch someone get sliced in half while trying their best to look like a Rob Liefeld painting. " I refuse to wear armor to honor the tree-oh I'm dead. The trees kinda failed me here" So the only thing trying to justify this does is undermine the serious side of the fiction by calling out how absurd it all is. And again, as an option I would have less of an issue with this sort of thing. I'm not thrilled with the way the enchanters are dressed for the humans and dwarfs. But it's one option out of many so I'm okay-ish with it being there even if it's more then a bit extreme. But the elves here are being reduced to nothing but how sexulised they are and that is a big issue.

Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
Softcore porn is known for having terrible plotlines. Just like Bioware RPGs.

Good point. Who doesn't relate to that? Softcore porn always has such terrible plotlines. When I'm in the mood for a good story, I like to sit down in front of some hardcore porn. They really understand the importance of good storytelling.


I don't have anything to add to this I just thought it was funny.

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speaking of childish: calling things gross doesnt make you sound particulary mature.
Especialy not while you trample on an aritsts work declaring it infantile because it does not specifically cater to you.

What do you mean no other option? You can choose not to play elves.
No culture would evolve to not wear armor? Google Gaesetae. Or just look at the Zulu.

Please dont justify your aversion to this particular artstyle with History because you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Just admit that you dont like it because of your agenda and get on with your life.

Last edited by Sordak; 18/09/16 06:54 PM.
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Wait...the elves are half-naked? And now people are sexualizing them?

I'm missing out. I chose the elf because they're cannibals. Clearly I'm paying attention to the wrong things when I choose a character to play.

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This escalated quickly.

The funny thing is, going by the very first line and the screenshot I can see some developer going 'fine, we'll make the Red Prince the first character' and moving onto the next topic.

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Ok, someone literally created a puppet account to spam this SJW nonsense here.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.
not realy they arent.

Let me be clear first of all. There is nothing wrong with depicting a sexist setting.

Schindler's List was set in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean that the film is pro-Nazi. What matters is how that setting is presented and portrayed. If you're going to make a film (or game) about Nazis, then you have to be mindful that this is a real issue that has affected real people, and so you need to carefully consider how you can navigate that. (In the case of Witcher, it actually covered similar themes by presenting the oppression of non-humans and Mages.)

Americans understandably felt uncomfortable that Witcher 3 didn't represent American ethnic minorities, as they live in a culture where those minorities have gotten the short end of the stick. What those critics forgot is that the game was made by European Polish people (an oppressed European ethnic minority) about their own culture. Americans need to take responsibility for their own lack of diversity in media, and not push that responsibility onto a Polish studio expressing their own diversity.

Likewise, any artwork has to be mindful that sexism is a real (and global) issue, and an issue that the fantasy genre has historically handled poorly.

There's nothing wrong with having people in your setting that view sex as conquest. There's nothing wrong with having a race that views nudity as a fundamental part of their culture. But you need to be mindful of how it's presented in the context of the broader culture in which the game is presented.

As for the specific case of "sex as conquest". For a person to view sex as conquest, they have to view sex as something to be taken, and not as something to be shared. They have to view their sexual partner as an opponent to be defeated. This is fundamentally an unequal relationship.

This is not unique to men. There are women who treat sex as a conquest too, and those women are no better.

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Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by Ayvah
Originally Posted by Sordak
So what, sex in many ways is a conquest. Its seen as that by many people.

And those people are sexist.
not realy they arent.

Let me be clear first of all. There is nothing wrong with depicting a sexist setting.

Schindler's List was set in Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean that the film is pro-Nazi. What matters is how that setting is presented and portrayed. If you're going to make a film (or game) about Nazis, then you have to be mindful that this is a real issue that has affected real people, and so you need to carefully consider how you can navigate that. (In the case of Witcher, it actually covered similar themes by presenting the oppression of non-humans and Mages.)

Americans understandably felt uncomfortable that Witcher 3 didn't represent American ethnic minorities, as they live in a culture where those minorities have gotten the short end of the stick. What those critics forgot is that the game was made by European Polish people (an oppressed European ethnic minority) about their own culture. Americans need to take responsibility for their own lack of diversity in media, and not push that responsibility onto a Polish studio expressing their own diversity.

Likewise, any artwork has to be mindful that sexism is a real (and global) issue, and an issue that the fantasy genre has historically handled poorly.

There's nothing wrong with having people in your setting that view sex as conquest. There's nothing wrong with having a race that views nudity as a fundamental part of their culture. But you need to be mindful of how it's presented in the context of the broader culture in which the game is presented.

As for the specific case of "sex as conquest". For a person to view sex as conquest, they have to view sex as something to be taken, and not as something to be shared. They have to view their sexual partner as an opponent to be defeated. This is fundamentally an unequal relationship.

This is not unique to men. There are women who treat sex as a conquest too, and those women are no better.


Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.

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Originally Posted by Yegodz
Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.


Or you can understand that your perspective is not the only one that matters, that other people also have money to spend, and that asking for basic human decency isn't radical illuminati bullying.

But I'm not holding my breath.

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All i have to say to OP is.

I expected more lizard boobs. This game is clearly not sexualized enough and have you seen their body? It's so... non top model like... man... at least i can run around naked as lizards.

/s

On a serious note, i did a naked run. Works pretty well as enchanter, who needs armor anyway

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Originally Posted by mesmerizedish
Originally Posted by Yegodz
Or they can ignore this obvious SJW attack and just create the game they want and not worry about the safe space groups who like to label anything they do not like as sexist, racist, whateverist to try and bully those into their stupid identity politics.


Or you can understand that your perspective is not the only one that matters, that other people also have money to spend, and that asking for basic human decency isn't radical illuminati bullying.

But I'm not holding my breath.


This isn't about other peoples perspectives, this is about shoving identity politics into other peoples hobbies and nothing more. The majority of the perpetually offended do not even consume what they complain about, they just do not want others to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Yegodz
This isn't about other peoples perspectives, this is about shoving identity politics into other peoples hobbies and nothing more. The majority of the perpetually offended do not even consume what they complain about, they just do not want others to enjoy it.

I can't speak for everyone, but I've been in this forum for long enough and I've actively participated with ideas and suggestions since shortly after the kickstarter ended. I also have the Kickstarter badge proving that I've actually paid for the game. If you're so passionate about D:OS2, where have you been?

Feel free to express your opinions, but we all get to participate in the discussion.

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oh gosh..this thread has gotten kinda back and forth. Honestly the OP had a flawed first post and left a bad impression. Tossing in they know females who won't buy the game. One red flag is all it takes to draw in negativity.

I highly doubt this is anyones first PC video game. We all live in 2016 and like it or not. Sex sells. Granted I highly doubt having a deformed elf in woodland armor was Larian's idea of "yeah sexy baby!" I mean.. have you seen their stomach area? *shudders* But seriously. We are gamers, we play games and sometimes they are not exactly what we want. We play them still right? if a game company had to cater to every single consumers needs...games would never release.

@____@ before anyone comes along with "peoples opinions matter" they do at times, but their opinion should also be expressed the proper way. Starting a thread and tossing in about how they spoke to women and they opt out of buying the game. It just doesn't sit well.

hehe. I am going to laugh if Larian changes the default character show and when you try and go over to female elf. A little pop up of Swen appears asking "Are you sure?" click yes "Are you really really sure you can handle this?" hehe. ~♥~ Larian love.

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I did actually back the game but for whatever reason the badge has not yet appeared. I went through the process to get it but it hasn't seemed to work. And providing any other proof that I backed it seems rather ill advised for something that really doesn't matter to my criticisms.

As for the lizardmen I kinda dig the designs there and wish the elves had gone more in that direction. I would sort of like there to be some more androgynous options for both genders of the lizardmen but all told I really dig the design and really respect the work that went into it. That sort of thing is hard to pull off and my hats off to the art team for how they did it. I guess some of the poses they have them in are a bit odd but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Vulpes Absurda
I did actually back the game but for whatever reason the badge has not yet appeared. I went through the process to get it but it hasn't seemed to work. And providing any other proof that I backed it seems rather ill advised for something that really doesn't matter to my criticisms.

As for the lizardmen I kinda dig the designs there and wish the elves had gone more in that direction. I would sort of like there to be some more androgynous options for both genders of the lizardmen but all told I really dig the design and really respect the work that went into it. That sort of thing is hard to pull off and my hats off to the art team for how they did it. I guess some of the poses they have them in are a bit odd but whatever.


If the tools and mod support are going to be create. I bet we will see more variations on race models.

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I suspect we'll see a mod to normalize armors to some degree but the sort of modeling skill required to match the art in the game, which is quite nice to be sure, means that any major changes are unlikely. Even for a game like Skyrim doesn't see a lot of new models straight up made for it. Most of it is is rejiggered from other models. And what new models their are tend to be to make the game sexier which is fine! If someone wishes to add that to their game more power to them. Mods are great for that. My issue with the elves is this being the default for them in the game.

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Sure looks different from how Elves looked in Divine Divinity.

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