Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2016
N
apprentice
OP Offline
apprentice
N
Joined: Sep 2016
Encourage- currently a little too generic to cast. It is a pretty much have it up all the time skill. No thought required. But also it is not stackable, meaning having more than 1 human in your party kind of wastes their trait. This is not the case with any other race. I would suggest making it single target but a little stronger. Then it would be more of a thoughtful cast for different situations, and there is no issue with stacking

Fire Breath - Needs a damage increase or better scaling. Also would be nice to be able to choose between different elements at character creation. Currently it is rarely worth casting after a few levels

Teleport- Most OP spell ever. Consider significantly reducing or removing altogether the damage. Or reduce the range. Or make it blockable by physical armor. It is just too damn good. Moving a character across the map is so powerful in this game, it also dealing a spells worth of damage and not being blockable with armor is too strong. In a game like this, its not competitive, sure you can have OP spells, but honestly it is worth a point in Air magic and the teleport spellbook to have this spell on every character.



Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
I'm fine with Encourage either way or with your change, I have no opinion, both choices seem fine.


Fire Breath right now is really terrible. I'm facing enemies with 190+ HP and it does about 10-20 damage. I bet that it scales based on INT, which means that if you're not using a magic build, your Lizard gets a crap power only fit for lighting flammable surfaces, something they can do with a candle.

Honestly, I hate the concept of Fire Breath in the first place. Nive made a pretty great suggestion though for a different Lizard talent: Shed Skin, a skill which lowers CON and purges all positive and negative status effects.

Maybe something like it lowers CON by 1-2 for 3 turns, purges all positive and negative status effects immediately, and has a 5-6 turn cooldown. That would be useful for all characters, it fits with Lizards lore-wise better than fire breath, and it isn't super-powerful.


Corpse Eater is a very powerful one thanks to the free skills it can teach an Elf.


Walk in Shadows is apparently now a Source skill. It seems to work the same as Walk in Shadows from Divinity 1 - it breaks when using abilities or attacking - which means that in D:OS 2, the Source Point requirement makes it 100% complete garbage. No. If "Walk in Shadows" is going to use up a Source Point, then attacking and using abilities MUST NOT break invisibility. That's the only way Walk in Shadows will be worth the new cost. EDIT: At least using backstabs should not break invisibility.

Last edited by Stabbey; 19/09/16 09:53 PM.
Joined: Apr 2011
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
I'm fine with encourage.
But yes, 2 humans is a waste. Not just encourage, but the leadership boost too. Totally designed NOT to have 2 in any team.

Joined: Jul 2014
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
Encourage lasts three turns and has a six turn cooldown, so having two humans seems... appropriate?

[EDIT] And Leaderships is definitely a "two characters should have this" ability, since it doesn't apply its bonus reflexively.

Last edited by mesmerizedish; 20/09/16 12:11 AM.
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
Originally Posted by NinjaWithSpoons
Teleport- Most OP spell ever. Consider significantly reducing or removing altogether the damage. Or reduce the range. Or make it blockable by physical armor. It is just too damn good. Moving a character across the map is so powerful in this game, it also dealing a spells worth of damage and not being blockable with armor is too strong. In a game like this, its not competitive, sure you can have OP spells, but honestly it is worth a point in Air magic and the teleport spellbook to have this spell on every character.

Teleport should require air magic on level 2 or 3 and the problem would be solved. That way probably only one or two characters in your party can cast it. And with its three turns cooldown it's imo correctly balanced.


WOOS
Joined: Apr 2011
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
It has a 6-turn cooldown (to be fair, I never had to recast it. By the time it's off either the enemy is dead... or I am).

And you really want to boost 2 people with leadership while the second person only affects one single team-member? Doesn't seem that efficient to me. Then again, there's not that much alternative for your points in civil abilities.

Joined: Aug 2013
member
Offline
member
Joined: Aug 2013
The second person isn't necessarily limited to affecting one team member: characters can end up separated for various reasons, and movement during combat is liable to put characters out of line of sight of one another occasionally. Having two Leadership characters provides some insurance in both cases.

Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
It has a 6-turn cooldown (to be fair, I never had to recast it. By the time it's off either the enemy is dead... or I am).

And you really want to boost 2 people with leadership while the second person only affects one single team-member? Doesn't seem that efficient to me. Then again, there's not that much alternative for your points in civil abilities.

Leadership 4 gives 5 points in initiative. That can be a life-or-death thing on harder difficulties, especially with the new concentration on surface effects and environmental magic. Being the first to stun/knock down/freeze/burn/teleport etc. your enemy can be key to winning the whole encounter.

And true, there isn't much to do with your civil abilities anyway... grin

Last edited by LordCrash; 20/09/16 01:13 AM.

WOOS
Joined: Aug 2016
Location: A Roadside Inn
apprentice
Offline
apprentice
Joined: Aug 2016
Location: A Roadside Inn
IMO gloves of teleportation is an extremly strong item since you get them so early in the game and you dont even need a point in a aerotheurge to use them so all characters can use them, sure you can find a teleportation skillbook, but that is later in the game via NPC merchant or fort joy, and a way to maybe fix this is to have X-number of uses on the gloves like the wands with source vampirism have since its an early game item.

that being said, i still love the gloves thought even if they are really powerful, but maybe that was the intension since you need it in a quest and its useful in puzzles.

Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
Originally Posted by Dexord
IMO gloves of teleportation is an extremly strong item since you get them so early in the game and you dont even need a point in a aerotheurge to use them so all characters can use them, sure you can find a teleportation skillbook, but that is later in the game via NPC merchant or fort joy, and a way to maybe fix this is to have X-number of uses on the gloves like the wands with source vampirism have since its an early game item.

that being said, i still love the gloves thought even if they are really powerful, but maybe that was the intension since you need it in a quest and its useful in puzzles.

I can even imagine that the gloves won't appear in the final game so early and that they were positioned on purpose in the EA version in order to give people easy means to play around with teleport. wink


WOOS
Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
Originally Posted by Dexord
IMO gloves of teleportation is an extremly strong item since you get them so early in the game and you dont even need a point in a aerotheurge to use them so all characters can use them, sure you can find a teleportation skillbook, but that is later in the game via NPC merchant or fort joy, and a way to maybe fix this is to have X-number of uses on the gloves like the wands with source vampirism have since its an early game item.


No, absolutely not. That's a completely terrible idea. The gloves are also needed to retrieve some treasure chests you can't otherwise get AND to proceed in the main plot. They are hardly all that broken.

Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: Germany
Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Dexord
IMO gloves of teleportation is an extremly strong item since you get them so early in the game and you dont even need a point in a aerotheurge to use them so all characters can use them, sure you can find a teleportation skillbook, but that is later in the game via NPC merchant or fort joy, and a way to maybe fix this is to have X-number of uses on the gloves like the wands with source vampirism have since its an early game item.


No, absolutely not. That's a completely terrible idea. The gloves are also needed to retrieve some treasure chests you can't otherwise get AND to proceed in the main plot. They are hardly all that broken.

You need teleport to proceed in the main plot? I don't think so.


WOOS
Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
Originally Posted by LordCrash
You need teleport to proceed in the main plot? I don't think so.


Perhaps not NEED, but it's more difficult to

reach the Seeker camp without being able to teleport around the exploding pods or move the pods themselves.


And that doesn't change my view that the Teleportation gloves do not need and should not get a use restriction. If Teleport is a problem, rebalance the spell. For example, you could increase the AP use to 4 or 5 so that you need to save up at least 1 full turn of AP to use it.

Joined: Sep 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
Certain quest require the use of teleport to finish them. Also you can't be teleported if you have fortified on.

Joined: Sep 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
As far as suggesting changes to individual abilities goes, my list so far is:

Throwing Knife - It should really only cost 1 AP. Otherwise it becomes useless on anything but a hardcore scoundrel, as every other skill set has either a better 2 AP attack, or a 1 AP attack that's just as strong or stronger.

Whirlwind - It should clear surfaces the same way Battle Stomp does. It's a great theme in general for Warfare abilities to clear surfaces instead of creating them, which brings us to the next one:

Phoenix Dive - It should be a Pyrokinetic ability.

All movement abilities - Their range should be reduced to be closer to what a character can walk with the same AP. With high-ground being a factor, things like Tactical Retreat are already immensely powerful just based on the fact they let you get that bonus without: finding a ladder, traversing harmful surfaces, provoking Opportunist attacks, etc.

Teleport - Much like the above, the range you can move someone should better match the AP cost, though rather than reducing the range, I'd rather see the cost increased to at least 2 AP. The spell is incredibly strong with the AP savings it can generate.

High ground bonuses - There's some skills that really shouldn't receive it:
-Magic that already falls from the sky, or rises from the ground(the second case would actually be penalized, if logic applied).
-Magic in general, save for a few spells that explicitly fire projectiles.
-Attacks that are technically melee in range(Whirlwind, Crippling Blow, Touch of Decay, etc.).
The gist of it is that high-ground should be for the most part exclusive to ranged characters, the reason for that being that magic is already the most mechanically interesting set of skills, and anything that can be used to make archery(and melee, but that doesn't really apply her) better stand out in comparison, should be kept primarily exclusive to it.

Joined: Sep 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
Phoenix Dive should stay a warrior skill book. It gives warriors ways to get in close for melee, and gives them a short counter to ranger and mage fire surfaces. Warriors have few interesting skill books as is (though I consider them all very effective), and pyro already has plenty.

I disagree with the idea of limiting the range of escape skills. Combat gets incredibly hectic as it is already, and closing gaps isn't that big an issue anyway. I've had multiple instances in dos2 where a character in a far off distance walked up to me and had enough ap to stab me in the back 3-4 times killing a character.

I really liked the idea of saving up on ap by smart use of movement skills like battering ram to move 15 meters where otherwise id use all my ap, and leave myself vulnerable if i walked the full distance. Its a system I loved in DOS 1 and i'm, glad its still here. I'd be alright with the idea of lengthening the cool downs by 1 or 2 turns though.

I feel like you guys are focusing too much on ap cost rather then cool down duration, which I feel has a much larger impact on the flow of a battle. Rather than increase teleport's ap cost to 2, it should have a cooldown time of 5 turns, so that you are more wary of when you use it rather than just using whenever.

I agree with your throwing knife idea, whirlwind, and the idea that magic like hailstorm should benefit a bit less from high ground, but I disagree that just because mage type characters have the most interesting options rangers should outright benefit the most from height (interesting doesn't translate to best), and I personally feel mages are the overall weakest currently.

I think the only ones that shouldn't benefit from height bonuses are warriors, because the idea of high could is that you have an easier time seeing the parts of your target you want to be attacking. The higher you are the easier weak points are to see, but I can't see situations where a warrior would be high enough for that to matter out side of seeing a phoenix dive target they wouldn't have seen previously.

Last edited by Damashi; 20/09/16 06:29 AM.
Joined: Sep 2016
A
addict
Offline
addict
A
Joined: Sep 2016
Originally Posted by Naqel

High ground bonuses - There's some skills that really shouldn't receive it:
-Magic that already falls from the sky, or rises from the ground(the second case would actually be penalized, if logic applied).
-Magic in general, save for a few spells that explicitly fire projectiles.
-Attacks that are technically melee in range(Whirlwind, Crippling Blow, Touch of Decay, etc.).
The gist of it is that high-ground should be for the most part exclusive to ranged characters, the reason for that being that magic is already the most mechanically interesting set of skills, and anything that can be used to make archery(and melee, but that doesn't really apply her) better stand out in comparison, should be kept primarily exclusive to it.


I agree with all this, except that, if someone is standing next to a fighter that's on an elevated platform, the fighter in question should get a bonus. But only on skills/attack that use your weapon. I wouldn't imagine it being that common for two melee fighters not to be on equal platform hieght

Joined: Sep 2016
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
Originally Posted by Damashi
Phoenix Dive should stay a warrior skill book. It gives warriors ways to get in close for melee, and gives them a short counter to ranger and mage fire surfaces. Warriors have few interesting skill books as is (though I consider them all very effective), and pyro already has plenty.

I disagree with the idea of limiting the range of escape skills. Combat gets incredibly hectic as it is already, and closing gaps isn't that big an issue anyway. I've had multiple instances in dos2 where a character in a far off distance walked up to me and had enough ap to stab me in the back 3-4 times killing a character.

It's one or the other: melee guys only need Phoenix dive because everyone else gets long range escapes.

If all escapes get shorter range, it becomes much more reasonable for a warrior to run the distance(The Pawn helps with that too, and you will take it just to reposition for those 0.1m away attacks), and as I've mentioned in the Whirlwind suggestion, it's a much more interesting way to counter mage surfaces by strategically removing them, than it is to gain immunity to them, especially one specific type of them, and an immunity that's there for a completely different reason.

Originally Posted by Damashi
I really liked the idea of saving up on ap by smart use of movement skills like battering ram to move 15 meters where otherwise id use all my ap, and leave myself vulnerable if i walked the full distance. Its a system I loved in DOS 1 and i'm, glad its still here. I'd be alright with the idea of lengthening the cool downs by 1 or 2 turns though.

Closer to doesn't mean exactly equal, and it is a problem when you can cover 4 times the distance on some of those moves. In that regard, Battering Ram is already okay, Tactical Retreat is absolutely not.

Originally Posted by Damashi
I feel like you guys are focusing too much on ap cost rather then cool down duration, which I feel has a much larger impact on the flow of a battle. Rather than increase teleport's ap cost to 2, it should have a cooldown time of 5 turns, so that you are more wary of when you use it rather than just using whenever.

AP cost is the more interesting choice to make when using an ability. If everything was gated by just cooldown, you'd end up with what's essentially happening already: people blow their load on an early combo, and then just mop up the field with weapons. 5 or 15 turns of cooldown makes no difference when a battle lasts 4 turns.
Increasing or decreasing the AP costs alters the flow of combat in much more meaningful way, because it alters how much you can do in one turn, rather than how often you can wipe the board.

Originally Posted by Damashi
I disagree that just because mage type characters have the most interesting options rangers should outright benefit the most from height (interesting doesn't translate to best), and I personally feel mages are the overall weakest currently.

In terms of presentation; it makes no sense for most magic to take advantage from the mechanic, because the way it's cast makes it appear to always have it, or makes it irrelevant.

In terms of gameplay mechanics: I will repeat that everything that can be used to differentiate Mages from Rangers and Fighters(etc.), should be fully taken advantage of.

Giving each class a unique relation with the height-advantage is infinitely better than having all of them treat it equally.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5