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#587638 20/09/16 06:01 AM
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Redo Memory to just use a 1:1 ratio on active skill cost.
No more slots nonsense, just a straight: you have X memory, this or that skill uses Y of it(usually about 2).

It adds more granularity, and makes 1 Memory a point worth actually investing on it's own.

Also, Ability points spent in Skill-trees should add Skill-tree specific Memory.
For example: Memory 10 character with 2 points in Necromancy has 10 Memory for use with any ability, and 2 points that can only be used for Necromancy spells.

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They should either be a 1:1 ratio on memory, or rebalance how much memory a skill costs, imo. A lot of the source skills don't make any sense. They cost a scarce resource and large amounts of memory (walk in the shadows doesn't make sense as a source skill especially in its current state.

I also have trouble warping my head around how a summon skill book costs 3 memory when you plan on adding a summoning class in the game that's supposed to use multiple summons, detonate them, heal them, and siphon health from them to heal the party. Unless they are planning to make it where intelegince and other other stats not effect how summons will work, and make it purely based of player level, which I personally consider to be a really boring way of doing progression.

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i like the memory concept per se (vancian magic systems i like a lot). i dont like the cost-system, though. it does not add something valuable. its a rather boring "spell shop system" with fixed cost per spell.

id rather have something like: 1:1 basic cost for all spells but the more slots you use for one spell the more powerful that spell becomes (like 1 slot fireball does x damage, 2 slot fireball does x+y damage, up to a limit of "spendable" slots course)

and points spent in skill trees add one or more special effects to the spells of that school (more effects the more points spent, could be quite costly to balance the effects, eg cool down reduction or life leech (like as of now in necromancy) or something else)

Last edited by 4verse; 20/09/16 10:36 AM.

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Can you explain to me how the current system doesn't add anything valuable and why it's just a boring spell shop system?

Limz #587717 20/09/16 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Limz
Can you explain to me how the current system doesn't add anything valuable and why it's just a boring spell shop system?


you spent one or more slots to get one spell. done (esp. boring since the slot cost for a particular spell is fixed. spell x costs y slots.).

the value you get for spending slots is of course a spell. but thats it, nothing more nothing less. and since thats the very foundation of the system i would not call that "adding value".

just like i spent 1 or more Euro to get 1 pen. always the same pen, always the same price.

id rather have different variations of that same pen (ie, cheap - expansive), so i could add (more) value by spending more slots

Last edited by 4verse; 20/09/16 11:09 AM.

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The issue is that memory is a solution to a problem... while at the same time also creating a whole new problem... while also being subject to the new problems in the game.

1) So you have a memory system that gives you very few slots per point (1 for every 2 you spend).
2) You have a attribute system that constantly wants to keep your primary attribute and constitution as high as possible or else you receive penalties or become helplessly squishy.
3) You have skills that can take 1-10 memory points (3 in the game)
4) You have skills that have very limited use, are not always helpful, or rely HEAVILY on other skills to be useful... and whose points don't necessarily reflect this fact.
5) All the while certain skills are far FAR better than others and have the same cost.

So you are in a situation where you never gain memory points, don't have any points to put into it, have skills that take far too much points, or that rely on skill combos...

And the game often reflects this by making some skills far better then their first game counterpart. Oil, my favorite earth spell of the first game, now does damage as well.

Yet what you often had in the first game that this game cannot do due to it being a waste of memory points are combos...

The whole Blood Rain, To contamination, To Fire combo? 3 memory points... For subpar damage in a game where Zone control is almost completely useless. It would be an amazing combo in the first game! In this one? Pointless and detrimental.

You are actually FAR FAR more rewarded for just choosing 3 high damage CC attacks (because CC doesn't come with the weakness of low damage anymore)... then for choosing skills because they work well together. The only combo I tend to do is Rain + Ice because Rain is an impossible skill to live without.

Which makes Memory feel even more pointless because you aren't looking for combinations or to fill in gaps... Your just flat out looking for power now.

Last edited by Neonivek; 20/09/16 11:13 AM.
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I like the System of Memory. All they have to do right now is balancing of the skills.
3 Memory Slots are to much for a simple summon. Better decrease Memory cost and increase AP costs..or something like that.
I guess, nobody will use a Summon spell, when he could use 3 other Spells instead.

Also I like the idea to complete the memory system with Class-spezific slots.
Something like: All 3 points in Pyro you get one Pyro-memory slot.

And we should'nt forget that we get "skill-crafting" in the future. That will change a lot, too.

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Originally Posted by Fallendea
And we should'nt forget that we get "skill-crafting" in the future. That will change a lot, too.


Skill crafting as presented is just the ability to craft new skills from skill books.

These new skills are preset....

So it is better to think of "Skill crafting" as access to 1-3 extra skills per skill tree and that is it.

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i agree, since spells are rather costly AND spell balancing is kinda awkward it is more efficient to get a few very powerfull spells and invest the remaining points NOT into memory. using spell combinations - one of the most fun aspects of dos1 - is gimped in effect


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I don't think I can agree with any of you wholeheartedly without more information.

Expanding capacity to hold abilities that have variable cost in lieu of expanding damage is adding value -- you're adding utility or the possibility of generating a stronger combo rather than directly increasing your current damage.

Let me address a few things I've come across in my game-play:

I've also lived without using rain; didn't bother with it at all unless I was being particularly impatient on classic difficulty. I am sure even on the harder difficulties it will be the exact same because there are solutions to everything currently.

Your skills in the current build can shore up the differences from neglecting your primary attribute for quite awhile as well as picking up the right combos along the way or simply having extra abilities to make up for the deficit. All your abilities scale upwards with you anyways and the penalties are to offset that. So you can be several levels behind and still be competitive.

Zone control isn't useless; it can be exploited depending on how much of a scum bag you are or simply it can be used for CCing while reserving your larger spells to deal with more troublesome foes or if you're in an endurance fight it can also help out as well since most of your spells by that point are on cool down depending on your party composition.

If you're interested in gaining more power you're going to need memory one way or another. One shotting Alexander, for example, will probably require you to have more than the baseline memory.

Limz #587730 20/09/16 11:53 AM
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Goodness ok here we go.

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I've also lived without using rain; didn't bother with it at all unless I was being particularly impatient on classic difficulty.


Going without rain means you often have to remove obstacles by waiting a lot of extra time and would often mean taking full fire damage.

My point about Rain is that it is the only combo I use because Rain is useful on its own, in fact a detriment not to have (Or its cousin Blood Rain). Not that you couldn't live without it.

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Your skills in the current build can shore up the differences from neglecting your primary attribute for quite awhile as well as picking up the right combos along the way or simply having extra abilities to make up for the deficit. All your abilities scale upwards with you anyways and the penalties are to offset that. So you can be several levels behind and still be competitive.


Some of them do that. However attributes remain the largest effect on your current combat effectiveness.

A Single point of constitution means a lot more then the 5th dot of Vitality (In fact the most useful dot is the first).

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Zone control isn't useless; it can be exploited depending on how much of a scum bag you are or simply it can be used for CCing while reserving your larger spells to deal with more troublesome foes or if you're in an endurance fight it can also help out as well since most of your spells by that point are on cool down depending on your party composition.


Here is kind of the thing
1) Enemies can move much MUCH further then they could in the first game and often have teleports in some way. It is rare that enemies will not be able to reach you in a single turn
-I'll add to that, Ranged attacks are POWERFUL in this game. In fact they are often just as powerful as melee attackers, or even more powerful.
2) Enemies with armor or magic armor can ignore it
3) Zone control is a lot less powerful then it is before.
4) Enemies can also clear zoning, corrupt it, or benefit from it.

As soon as enemies close the distance your attempt at zone control is pretty much over except for possibly a teleport.

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If you're interested in gaining more power you're going to need memory one way or another.


Yes, the game makes that painfully clear. No one was disputing that.

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Given how many points you need to invest into Memory to get a single slot I cannot see how any skill which costs more than 3 Memory will every be worthwhile. 4 Memory slots? That'll take the full attribute points from 4 levels, and one level means a lot in this game. Hello to fighting charged frogs at level 3, hello to fighting Void Salamanders at level 5.

Ten slots is 10 levels worth of points. Ten levels out of probably 20 or 30 at the most - so you'd better hope that you get incredibly lucky with the RNG drops because losing 10 levels worth of power into Memory will cripple you. A spell which takes 10 memory to cast shouldn't just kill one enemy on the screen in one shot, it shouldn't just kill everything on the screen in one shot, it should kill everything on the current map, and the next three maps.

Memory seems like it was intended to murder the mage classes. Especially odd given that two additional mage classes were picked as the users choice skill sets.


Originally Posted by Neonivek

Skill crafting as presented is just the ability to craft new skills from skill books.

These new skills are preset....

So it is better to think of "Skill crafting" as access to 1-3 extra skills per skill tree and that is it.


Actually, the hope for skill crafting is that the game does the hard work for the developers - a system which smartly combines skills into appropriate combinations without the developers having to hand-craft animations for each one, because there would be way too many combos to do it by hand.

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The thing is that what they have on the table SEEMS like it would make memory worthwhile.

As I said the Rain + Contamination + Fire (and fire causing skill) would be AMAZING in Divinity Original Sin. It is a pretty amazing combo! Heck Blood Rain makes the combo even better!

Things SEEM like they have pretty nice combos and that skills are even more powerful than ever before! They focused a LOT on making sure that skills work well off one another and meld together to create powerful combos.

But because of the way the game is designed... Creating a giant field of bleeding, poison, and explosions is... a waste because enemies will far too often be immune and if they aren't immune why aren't you using CC?. 6ap and 3 memory... to do what often 2ap + 1 memory does.

and I am not even done with what they have done to the skill system... On paper... because on paper it is amazing.

In execution though...

Last edited by Neonivek; 20/09/16 12:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Actually, the hope for skill crafting is that the game does the hard work for the developers - a system which smartly combines skills into appropriate combinations without the developers having to hand-craft animations for each one, because there would be way too many combos to do it by hand.


I think that's just your hope, and it's largely unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Redo Memory to just use a 1:1 ratio on active skill cost.
No more slots nonsense, just a straight: you have X memory, this or that skill uses Y of it(usually about 2).

It adds more granularity, and makes 1 Memory a point worth actually investing on it's own.

Also, Ability points spent in Skill-trees should add Skill-tree specific Memory.
For example: Memory 10 character with 2 points in Necromancy has 10 Memory for use with any ability, and 2 points that can only be used for Necromancy spells.

Great idea there BTW. Totally agree.

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It's not just MY hope - there are way too many possible combinations for the developers to hand-craft more than a tiny fraction of skills, but yeah probably unrealistic. It's hard enough getting good balance from the baseline skills, never mind if an algorithm combines them.

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I like the memory system but needing to put two points into the stat to get any benefit feels pretty bad, I would like one point to reward one skill slot. Currently, I find it very hard to justify taking skills that cost three memory slots and I'm not convinced it would be worth it even with my suggestion. Perhaps combining that with lowered memory slot requirements for a certain number of points put into Pyromancy (for example) would make everything feel better, and allow characters to specialise more.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
...


There are more ways to deal with fire than with rain and are more precise in dealing with it. You can also choose to ignore it if you have the resources. The point is you have resources at your disposal and you're choosing to ignore them for reasons you have not explained yet. Hence, it's a hyperbole when you say you can't live without rain.

Your point about rain does not reflect my experience at all since there are so many ways to deal with burning or fields of flame in general. Something is only detrimental if not having it does not allow you to play your game plan. I would almost want to argue that your usage of rain is a crutch rather than an alternative.

Your combat effectiveness is determined by a mix of skills, abilities, gear, and context. In some cases, each attribute point beyond a certain threshold gives less value than a point of a skill would.

Certainly, some skills need to be reworked, but you really aren't weighing them at all in your current analysis. Some of those advantages are kind of massive too as well as opening up playstyle specific tactics.

As for zoning the opponents what you say is pretty much true up until you say that zone control ceases the moment they reach you. You have just as much mobility if not more than your opponents do and there are PLENTY of situations where even after they have arrived at your threshold you can still control their movement (by withdrawing then CCing the area or teleporting them back etc). There are also plenty of situations, due to positioning, the enemy will not reach you in its entirety till the second round.

And, yes, it's true, they can run through your lands of fire and lightning but they also lose out on their magic armor along the way which... makes them vulnerable to CC. Zone control is still effective as it makes the opposition pay a price. Just remember whatever the enemy can benefit from you can as well. If that's the case then it comes down to simply playing your cards right.

As for the last point, let me rephrase it and say that memory has a pretty good relationship with combat effectiveness. There's always going to be a break point for what you want and that there is more than one way to play.

Limz #587761 20/09/16 01:25 PM
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Skipping the section of what you wrote that I am finding annoying. Don't take it as conceding or dismissing.

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Certainly, some skills need to be reworked, but you really aren't weighing them at all in your current analysis


That is because they do not alleviate the attribute spread even remotely right now. You especially do NOT use it the way you suggest because having good Strength and Two-handed = Good.

Last edited by Neonivek; 20/09/16 01:44 PM.
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The stuff with attribute points and memory/memory slots specifically has me curious if they're not pitting future usefulness on itemization. In the starting island I've found gear that gives like +4/+7/+4 to finesse, intelligence, and memory, respectively, and I think it was on a single piece of armor. It was probably one of the best pieces of gear in the loot table, but if that's what we get to start then I think that might become the norm later on. So, sure, your base, naked character might be all 10's with investment mostly in their primary stat but geared up can easily be 16's, 30-somethings, and 20-somethings. If so, that's pretty decent and we just need wait for the extra content.

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