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I think that the scaling of each one should be a steeper exponential curve than it currently is. It doesn't seem to adequately scale with damage increases in general, in its current state.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Altros
I kind of wish they'd change the Physical and Magical Armor attributes so that, instead of just increasing however much you have by X%, they make it so that Physical/Magical Armor increases your resistances to damage of those types. There are already very powerful ways to increase your Physical/Magical Armor in the forms of fortify and magic armor, both of which become more effective if points are spent into geomancy/hydrosophist respectively.


I don't think that requiring those very specific schools and that very specific spell should be the only way to increase the amount of physical/magical armor.


It is actually HILARIOUSLY ironic!

Given that the biggest gripe the development team had about the first game was how "Overpowered" the shields are.

So they remove them in Enhanced Edition...

Then what do they do in Divinity Original Sin 2? They add the exact same thing! And better yet it is the only way to have halfway decent armor and magic armor.

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We've only got a handful of abilities for the skills lines that exist and other skill lines haven't been implemented at all; I wouldn't take the current set as representative of what will be available in the final version.

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Originally Posted by Darkraign

Should the encounter be balanced for CC hitting or for CC not hitting or maybe half the CC hits?
If all CC has to hit you are fucked if it doesnt. If you dont need CC ( or just a very small amount ) the encounter becomes too easy.
Adding to that most CC is multihit in OS. A stuncloud checks whether you get CCed or not when created and at every move you take -> non binary approach ( OS1 ) it always works -> the reason CC was so goddamn overpowered.
Did a charm work first try ( or first round ) in OS1 on a very strong enemy -> enemies are fucked because the high damage high CD skills will be used on their teammates.
Right now we will always take the first round of damage and round 1 is the hardest hitting one.


You can't really bring the issue of fine-tuning into a discussion about mechanics, as fine-tuning is what you do after you settle on those mechanics.

The current system could be fine tuned to make for an enjoyable game, but it wouldn't really make it a good system, and every such tuning assumes you know the full set of variables, which you don't.

Tuning the values is always done with a certain range in mind anyway, the player might be level 5, or level 7 when they hit a level 6 encounter, expanding that range slightly to account for RNG isn't all that much of a stretch, and with a tap her and there to ability cooldowns, stats, etc. you can actually make the game more dynamic, and more fun for a wider variety of play styles(less reliability means you can put more power elswhere).

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Darkraign

Should the encounter be balanced for CC hitting or for CC not hitting or maybe half the CC hits?
If all CC has to hit you are fucked if it doesnt. If you dont need CC ( or just a very small amount ) the encounter becomes too easy.
Adding to that most CC is multihit in OS. A stuncloud checks whether you get CCed or not when created and at every move you take -> non binary approach ( OS1 ) it always works -> the reason CC was so goddamn overpowered.
Did a charm work first try ( or first round ) in OS1 on a very strong enemy -> enemies are fucked because the high damage high CD skills will be used on their teammates.
Right now we will always take the first round of damage and round 1 is the hardest hitting one.


You can't really bring the issue of fine-tuning into a discussion about mechanics, as fine-tuning is what you do after you settle on those mechanics.

The current system could be fine tuned to make for an enjoyable game, but it wouldn't really make it a good system, and every such tuning assumes you know the full set of variables, which you don't.

Tuning the values is always done with a certain range in mind anyway, the player might be level 5, or level 7 when they hit a level 6 encounter, expanding that range slightly to account for RNG isn't all that much of a stretch, and with a tap her and there to ability cooldowns, stats, etc. you can actually make the game more dynamic, and more fun for a wider variety of play styles(less reliability means you can put more power elswhere).


The mechanics right now ( same as in OS1 ) for most CC spells are multihits -> even a small chance will most likely work -> you are either immun or you get stunned, frozen, knocked down etc.
We already have a non binary approach in OS1 an surprise surprise we can easily stunlock everything beginning with turn 1 by using a static cloud -> bullshit
Or let us look at hailstrike. Multihit skill with a chance to freeze -> you will surely freeze everything because it could with every single hit.
But lets look at static clouds again. OS1 and OS2 is full of environmental effects ( including lots of CC ones ). OS2 even more than OS1. A non binary approach would increase stun locking even more. Cast rain -> auto attack -> electrified water with a bit of damage -> you have a 5-10% chance of stun ( increasing ) with every action the enemy does -> you will surely stun him or curse some ice -> perma freeze as soon as you hit the enemy once.
There is way to much CC flying around in OS2 so you need a hard counter for it -> armor and magic armor.
Whether or whether not someone likes RNG chances in CC is not really important BUT disabling the binary mechanics would need a complete revamp of the way combat works right now.

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Originally Posted by Darkraign
<snip>

I don't think you understand what binary in this context means.
Just because the original game had RNG, doesn't mean it wasn't operating on a yes/no basis(the threshold for it was simply different).

The number of hits is also a tuning point, rather than a proper mechanic.
There are things(such as damage bonuses) that already work on a per-ability, rather than per-hit basis, and if it comes to worst, the damage/proc logic can be bundled into a single hit at the end(independent from animation).

Finally, just because another issue exists(like requiring a larger rebalance), does not mean that a solution that requires it to be resolved cannot be investigated or implemented. It simply means that the other issue has to also be addressed, and it's quite likely that it will be looked at regardless anyway.

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Darkraign
<snip>

I don't think you understand what binary in this context means.
Just because the original game had RNG, doesn't mean it wasn't operating on a yes/no basis(the threshold for it was simply different).

The number of hits is also a tuning point, rather than a proper mechanic.
There are things(such as damage bonuses) that already work on a per-ability, rather than per-hit basis, and if it comes to worst, the damage/proc logic can be bundled into a single hit at the end(independent from animation).

Finally, just because another issue exists(like requiring a larger rebalance), does not mean that a solution that requires it to be resolved cannot be investigated or implemented. It simply means that the other issue has to also be addressed, and it's quite likely that it will be looked at regardless anyway.


Binary in this context means CC either hits or misses without having a chance to fail there is just 0 or 1 not 0,5.
Bundling the damage would complety change how some skills work. Again Hail strike is multihit skill but not every strike will hit every target because they are not hitting the same area.
Right now there is no issue. RNGless CC is the best thing a strategic game can include. As soon as there is rng for something really important it becomes luck based -> bullshit

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Originally Posted by Naqel
It wouldn't really acomplish anything other than make the skills cost less points.

The real problem with armors right now is that:
A - they're binary in nature, you either have enough to protect you, or you don't
B - it's largely impossible to kill someone without exhausting at least one of the armors fully


Both issues would be solved by my suggestion from another thread on the issue, making the armors gradually lose effectiveness as they are depleted.
I.e.: At 50% remaining, an armor absorbs 50% of the damage(the rest bleeds through), and provides only 50% reduction to harmful effects being applied.

Couple that with a variable application rate(some skills having 50% chance, some having 200%), and there is a lot more room for cool tactical gameplay where armors remain an important factor, but do not outright decide the outcome.


From my perspective, the idea of armor losing effectiveness as it decreases and allowing a chance of CC to pass through makes them even less worth investing in than they currently are. They won't fully protect me from CC and they won't reduce incoming damage of that type. They'd just be extra HP bars that aren't as convenient to heal and may or may not protect me from CC as RNG dictates.

Something else I'd like to point out, your A and B are both subjective. You see these are bad things but others see them as good things.

A - Armors are binary in nature: no more praying you don't get CC'd. As long as you maintained/have the proper armor then you won't be CC'd. Certain spells can be used and certain potions crafted to heal it on the spot if you see CC's incoming.

B - It's largely impossible to kill someone without exhausting at least one of the armors fully: boss fights are now more engaging. You must decide which type of CC you're going for as switching type can be expensive as you must now whittle down a different armor type. This means bosses will actually be allowed to perform their mechanics. (who remembers perpetually stunning bosses with Drain Willpower -> Blitz Bolt -> Shocking Touch from DOSEE?)

I personally love the idea behind the current armor system. However, I feel, given what I could see playing this game on classic mode, that there isn't much reason to spend points in them.

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The ideas in this thread are pretty divisive but, the general consensus is that the new armor system is cool but needs tweaking.

I'll definitely get behind that. Playing the game with my partner, I loved how the armors worked and how it effected engagements. In D:OS I had a near textbook first few skills and charm was always one of them. Now our rogue needs to pick his sleep target or wait a turn for magic armor to be decreased. I only wish there was a way to avoid falling on ice since nails+boots doesn't seem to work anymore.

I would also like to jump on the please god no RNG in our armor/CC camp. RNG is in this game, it has a huge effect on how things turn out, it should NOT be your primary concern in strategic decisions and it definitely doesn't need to be added. Failing a 80% to succeed CC does not a better game make, simply a more random one. There is no randomness in the godfather's of strategy and tactics and they have stood the tests of time, so it is certainly not necessary to create a compelling game.

Going back to the original post, I do not think the ideal solution is a combination of the two skills. I do feel like the skills need to be more meaningful and have more punch. Why would I ever take a point or two in armor when I can take hydrosophist or witchcraft or just dual wielding? All the other options are not only BETTER, but also MORE FUN.

I think the suggested tweak of providing a flat increase of 25 per level and a % increase (the same 7% does not feel off base) At 4 points we have 100 flat increase and +28% total which will go a long way towards durability and CC resistance.

However, I feel that a more elegant solution involves REMOVING THE SKILLS entirely (and thereby removing the burden of balancing them) and adding in something more interesting than customization that adds only numbers (and not particularly interesting ones) to a character. We have that in our weapon skills already.
Maybe we can bring that 'shield' skill tree back, or move our mandatory tank investment points into a different tank focused ability tree.
Further evidence for this solution is found by the posters who have already said (I've had or found no reason to invest in these skills) and collected data from our play throughs which will show just how little these skills are used. If it's not being used, it's not needed.

Last edited by Surrealialis; 21/09/16 11:56 PM.
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I wouldn't be too hasty just deleting the Physical Armor/Magical Armor abilities. The reason that they are not being used is not because they are not useful or needed, it is because at the moment, they offer a very minimal effect. They offer a low percentage bonus and at the start of the game, our numbers are all low, and we don't have 10 points to jam into them all at once.

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Originally Posted by Darkraign
RNGless CC is the best thing a strategic game can include. As soon as there is rng for something really important it becomes luck based -> bullshit

I would be more into the camp of RNGless CC is bullshit. 100% chance to apply CC, no defense what-so-ever... it's insane. Have you tried how easy it is to CC opponents in D:OS2? With 100% chance to do so, there's literally "STUNLOCK ME" written on all opponents. I hardly find that emergant gameplay. Why do damage if you can just permanently take them out of the game, no questions asked.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
Originally Posted by Darkraign
RNGless CC is the best thing a strategic game can include. As soon as there is rng for something really important it becomes luck based -> bullshit

I would be more into the camp of RNGless CC is bullshit. 100% chance to apply CC, no defense what-so-ever... it's insane. Have you tried how easy it is to CC opponents in D:OS2? With 100% chance to do so, there's literally "STUNLOCK ME" written on all opponents. I hardly find that emergant gameplay. Why do damage if you can just permanently take them out of the game, no questions asked.


There is a defense, it's called armor. You do damage to break the armor. The enemies on the EA map are a walk in the park because this is the first map. You spend half of your time on the map in trash gear that's been pieced together. The enemies can only be so strong while still being within the realm of reason.

Furthermore, Tactician Mode isn't in the game yet. All we have right now is basically the beginner map with a highest difficulty of normal. You can't really expect the enemies on the EA map to be an indication of enemies later down the road. I would expect to see enemies that are more heavily armored in later content.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

I would be more into the camp of RNGless CC is bullshit. 100% chance to apply CC, no defense what-so-ever... it's insane. Have you tried how easy it is to CC opponents in D:OS2? With 100% chance to do so, there's literally "STUNLOCK ME" written on all opponents. I hardly find that emergant gameplay. Why do damage if you can just permanently take them out of the game, no questions asked.

It's only %100 percent if you've worked through their armor (or they don't have any). I've experienced needing to backstab twice (w/ guerilla) on some mobs just to take down their armor so that that can be CC'd. Granted, this isn't the case for most mobs in Chapter 1, but considering we're basically playing an extended tutorial I don't see how it's an issue.

Keep in mind that players are subjectable to the same rules. On my play through with four people, I've had a couple of encounters so far where I've been CC'd pretty hard. So fights often come down to "Focus this guy down, CC that guy" or even "Focus and CC that guy". I have found the AI to employ the same strategy with some success. I can imagine things being quite a bit more stressful in tactician mode, which has always been where DOS's difficulty has been.

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At some point I had a robe with 85MR and a pendant with 45MR. That alone + any other MR item should go above 150MR easily. But generally I found that you should build full armor except accessories and chest. That way you have a very balanced armor/MR ratio. And you can always just Fortify or Frost Armor your tank so no problem there.

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Only the magical armour makes any kind of sence. The physical armour shouldn't stop you from being knocked on thy arse, unless it's one of those speceship energy type shields.

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Originally Posted by Darkraign
Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by Darkraign

A - is not a problem but a good thing. RNG in CC is bullshit and should never come back
B - Thats what armor is for


'RNG CC' while far from ideal, is infinitely better than the current system. Risk management is a big part of what makes P&P RPG's work, and those are the primary inspiration for Divinity.
Being made to take uncertain risks on receiving/failing a CC makes for a much wider variety of combat scenarios.

Armor being for protection is one thing, but once again it is far more interesting to have to manage healing and restoring armors at the same time, than it is to do one after the other.
Having armor offer diminishing protection also means it's much easier to give high amounts of it to characters that are meant to resist CC very well(tanks, bosses), as it means those characters can still be killed without stripping that resistance before hand, AKA preventing the from just chain CC'ing them, without giving them explicit immunities to everything(which is a much more elegant design, since it puts all combatants on equal footing rules-wise).


P&P RPGs ( DnD atleast ) have encounter/daylie powers for strong CC.
A better approach to armor and CC would be to give bosses or boss mobs more skills to increase armor or to remove CC. Your idea would just allow us to CC bosses with attack 1 while the binary approach helps bosses to actually do something.
A non binary approach would also nerf no dmg CC spells because they would mostly work on tanks.
Someone with just 1 max armor would loose it all with the first attack but you could easily "repair" the armor back to 100% -> CC immunity again. While tanks would maybe loose half and you can only repair 25% -> tanks is not CC immun.

The balance with non binary CC is horrible too.
Should the encounter be balanced for CC hitting or for CC not hitting or maybe half the CC hits?
If all CC has to hit you are fucked if it doesnt. If you dont need CC ( or just a very small amount ) the encounter becomes too easy.
Adding to that most CC is multihit in OS. A stuncloud checks whether you get CCed or not when created and at every move you take -> non binary approach ( OS1 ) it always works -> the reason CC was so goddamn overpowered.
Did a charm work first try ( or first round ) in OS1 on a very strong enemy -> enemies are fucked because the high damage high CD skills will be used on their teammates.
Right now we will always take the first round of damage and round 1 is the hardest hitting one.


Bosses are already immune to all forms of CC. You can only hit them with status effects or debuff them with something like disease, so you'll never be able to just chain CC a boss until it dies.

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Yeah, I know armor is the defense.
In the current game vitality might aswell be thrown out, as soon as that armor is down vitality is just the pool they need to go through when you're in CC-stunlock.

It's not exactly very fun to dash out, nor receive. I like a bit more options about my defense rather than "armor or bust".

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I have not experienced any armor or bust moments and have had to use healing spells regularly. Don't let the mobs Stunlock you?

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That's cause the AI is stupid and uses it's CC-spells on you right away before your armor is broken (sometimes defeating their entire turn if it does no damage, just CC).

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