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Originally Posted by Tuco
I swear it's starting to feel like everyone is talking about a different topic here.

One throws in the D20 and dice rolls, the other talks about "honor mode" (aka "Ironman"). None of them addressed what the OP was actually talking about.


maybe b/c nobody really gets the op's point and what he is talking about and/or does not care. i think its something about loot, rng, scumming or not to and stuff. but i dont get it completely either


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He was [mostly] defending the design choice to save and reload constantly (aka "save-scumming") specifically on the purpose of trying to get different loot every time.

Which I can't agree with at all.

To be open about my bias I should premise that I don't like randomized loot in general (and even less in a game with a finite amount of encounters and lootable chests), but randomized loot with the aggravating factor of "changing the outcome every time you reload a save" is what makes it genuinely terrible in my opinion, because it doesn't just "allow" save-scumming (which I wouldn't have much problems with); it actively encourages and rewards it.

Last edited by Tuco; 22/09/16 11:46 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
He was [mostly] defending the design choice to save and reload constantly (aka "save-scumming") specifically on the purpose of trying to get different loot every time.

Which I can't agree with at all.

To be open about my bias I should premise that I don't like randomized loot in general (and even less in a game with a finite amount of encounters and lootable chests), but randomized loot with the aggravating factor of "changing the outcome every time you reload a save" is what makes it genuinely terrible in my opinion, because it doesn't just "allow" save-scumming (which I wouldn't have much problems with); it actively encourages and rewards it.


I'm not advocating save-scumming as an actual legitimate mechanic as you're suggesting; rather, I'm saying that for some players, it may be a necessary evil in order to deal with the current systems in place.

Those systems don't look to be changing anytime soon, so as much as I hate RNG loot in a world with finite chests and encounters, save-scumming is the one thing that helps tip the scales in the other direction, and the developers would be better off turning a blind eye to the practice.

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on the other hand if there is a cheating possibility of any kind (eg console commands, an editor etc) whats the point of not allowing save-scumming?


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Save-scumming for better loot in Divinity II was possible, and I didn't like it at all. At the same time, I was compelled to try to open the chests again and again, because this was the only way to acquire the loot I wanted.

The random loot system never felt player-friendly to me. I am not overjoyed that it's making a return in D:OS II. It is at least easier to accept bad loot if there is no way to get better by save-scumming.

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I really don't understand the save-scumming trend that companies are following these last few years there is no reasonable explanation for it. If someone wants to save scum, its their time and business, ppl who want to do it, will do it, and ppl who dont, wont... If you are against save-scumming, just don't do it, why are ppl concerned about others doing it? Its a game ffs... not any moral stance...

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They could use seeded RNG like some of the X-COM games instead, or generate the contents of every chests/crates/loots at the begining of each game and never change them afterward.

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Originally Posted by Vector
I really don't understand the save-scumming trend that companies are following these last few years there is no reasonable explanation for it. If someone wants to save scum, its their time and business, ppl who want to do it, will do it, and ppl who dont, wont... If you are against save-scumming, just don't do it, why are ppl concerned about others doing it? Its a game ffs... not any moral stance...


Simple: Never let a player ruin their own experience.

If it is better for a player to savescum there are a lot who will do it until the game becomes extremely dull.

And if that happens... it is the game developer's fault... Not the player's.

Which is the thing. If a player ruins their own fun in a videogame. It usually isn't their fault.

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Originally Posted by Neonivek
Originally Posted by Vector
I really don't understand the save-scumming trend that companies are following these last few years there is no reasonable explanation for it. If someone wants to save scum, its their time and business, ppl who want to do it, will do it, and ppl who dont, wont... If you are against save-scumming, just don't do it, why are ppl concerned about others doing it? Its a game ffs... not any moral stance...


Simple: Never let a player ruin their own experience.

If it is better for a player to savescum there are a lot who will do it until the game becomes extremely dull.

And if that happens... it is the game developer's fault... Not the player's.

Which is the thing. If a player ruins their own fun in a videogame. It usually isn't their fault.


I'm sorry but that seems patently.......ridonkulous. Merlons hot pants, that like justifying invisible walls in flight simulators to keep people from crashing so they don't "ruin" their own experience cause they're too lazy to learn how to actually pilot a plane in a game they bought. Or not letting someone kill the good guys cause it ruins the game storyline or something else for them or what have you.

Freedom of choice should never be limited for the sake of such an argument is my stance

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Neonivek
Originally Posted by Vector
I really don't understand the save-scumming trend that companies are following these last few years there is no reasonable explanation for it. If someone wants to save scum, its their time and business, ppl who want to do it, will do it, and ppl who dont, wont... If you are against save-scumming, just don't do it, why are ppl concerned about others doing it? Its a game ffs... not any moral stance...


Simple: Never let a player ruin their own experience.

If it is better for a player to savescum there are a lot who will do it until the game becomes extremely dull.

And if that happens... it is the game developer's fault... Not the player's.

Which is the thing. If a player ruins their own fun in a videogame. It usually isn't their fault.


I'm sorry but that seems patently.......ridonkulous. Merlons hot pants, that like justifying invisible walls in flight simulators to keep people from crashing so they don't "ruin" their own experience cause they're too lazy to learn how to actually pilot a plane in a game they bought. Or not letting someone kill the good guys cause it ruins the game storyline or something else for them or what have you.

Freedom of choice should never be limited for the sake of such an argument is my stance


I completely disagree. A player is playing the game by the rules to try to win. If playing by the rules is not fun, then the game design sucks. You are arguing that there should be no rules and it's the player's job to make it fun. I mean some people like that, Minecraft is a big hit. But not me. That's like saying "we should have a button that you can click that gives you infinite gold and makes you level 100. I mean it's not bad design, give the player the choice to ruin the game if they want". I would certainly argue that allowing players to kill good guys that are super important to the story is bad design.

Last edited by NinjaWithSpoons; 22/09/16 10:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by NinjaWithSpoons
Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by Neonivek
Originally Posted by Vector
I really don't understand the save-scumming trend that companies are following these last few years there is no reasonable explanation for it. If someone wants to save scum, its their time and business, ppl who want to do it, will do it, and ppl who dont, wont... If you are against save-scumming, just don't do it, why are ppl concerned about others doing it? Its a game ffs... not any moral stance...


Simple: Never let a player ruin their own experience.

If it is better for a player to savescum there are a lot who will do it until the game becomes extremely dull.

And if that happens... it is the game developer's fault... Not the player's.

Which is the thing. If a player ruins their own fun in a videogame. It usually isn't their fault.


I'm sorry but that seems patently.......ridonkulous. Merlons hot pants, that like justifying invisible walls in flight simulators to keep people from crashing so they don't "ruin" their own experience cause they're too lazy to learn how to actually pilot a plane in a game they bought. Or not letting someone kill the good guys cause it ruins the game storyline or something else for them or what have you.

Freedom of choice should never be limited for the sake of such an argument is my stance


I completely disagree. A player is playing the game by the rules to try to win.


I completely disagree with this statement.

And even if the player was playing the game solely to win, I doubt he would want the developer to essentially "help" him win...

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I've played games that were less fun due to what felt like forced save scumming.

So yeah. I'm one of those people who will sometimes save scum even when it's not fun. Save scumming because I feel like the RNG is trying to screw me? Not my idea of a good time.

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Aren't anti save-scumming measures one of those things that Devs do to save us from ourselves? We as powergamers (self included) tend to use any advantage given to the point where we may ruin the gameplay for ourselves. I recall in DOS1 casting lucky charm on my rogue before interacting with any container and spending far too long save-scumming for an upgrade instead of continuing on and getting upgrades naturally or crafting.

I would much rather have a system where if you get an item that may not be for your comp you could possibly salvage it to craft something that is for your comp or when you sold it to a vendor it didnt have 90% markdown compared to worse gear that vendor is selling so you could buy something you need. I think a system where you could turn an offspec drop into something useful would be far more beneficial than letting us ruin the game for ourselves.


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Originally Posted by Malvolio

I would much rather have a system where if you get an item that may not be for your comp you could possibly salvage it to craft something that is for your comp or when you sold it to a vendor it didnt have 90% markdown compared to worse gear that vendor is selling so you could buy something you need. I think a system where you could turn an offspec drop into something useful would be far more beneficial than letting us ruin the game for ourselves.


Well, that's why honour mode and stuff exists right? To help force us to not save scum. Also, this idea has merit but having this and an RNG system isn't mutually exclusive.

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