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#590462 30/09/16 05:59 PM
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I know elf armor has been discussed in detail and there are some other long threads debating it. But I had a slightly tangential thought I wanted to throw out. What if elf armor that provided magic armor kept its current leafy/skimpy dryad look but armor that provided physical armor looked more tree bark like and more covering?

This would allow Larian to maintain its unique aesthetics for elf armor, but give those of us who may not love the look an in game option that thematically fit for a more covered/physically protected look (my elf knight just looks a bit odd as is so exposed).

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there needs to be no solution sicne there is no problem.

Dont give an inch to tumblr.

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I like this idea +1

@Sordak
There's nothing wrong with a little compromise that removes nothing from the game. More options is never a bad thing

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Originally Posted by aj0413
I like this idea +1

@Sordak
There's nothing wrong with a little compromise that removes nothing from the game. More options is never a bad thing


Clearly you dont know these people.
There is no compromise with them.

You want to show goodwill and make a compromise and they will start to complain that the other option exists.

Remember they do not complain about not having the OPTION of playing a covered up female. Remember they ALREADY HAVE THAT OPTION by not playing an elf.
They explicitly complain about this Option beeing there.

They want less options not more.
They will mereley disguise their arguments as compromises for the time beeing but believe me once you give in to them they will demand that the "sexist" design is removed. They have done so before and they will do so in the future.

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Originally Posted by Sordak
Originally Posted by aj0413
I like this idea +1

@Sordak
There's nothing wrong with a little compromise that removes nothing from the game. More options is never a bad thing


Clearly you dont know these people.
There is no compromise with them.

You want to show goodwill and make a compromise and they will start to complain that the other option exists.

Remember they do not complain about not having the OPTION of playing a covered up female. Remember they ALREADY HAVE THAT OPTION by not playing an elf.
They explicitly complain about this Option beeing there.

They want less options not more.
They will mereley disguise their arguments as compromises for the time beeing but believe me once you give in to them they will demand that the "sexist" design is removed. They have done so before and they will do so in the future.


Ehhh, I don't want to go into a discussions with such a polarized assumption. Benefit of the doubt/willingness to find compromise is an important part of any constructive discussion.

Even if someone decides to act as you've described, I'd like to not have to lower my myself to the same standard of giving no quarter

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Originally Posted by aj0413
Ehhh, I don't want to go into a discussions with such a polarized assumption. Benefit of the doubt/willingness to find compromise is an important part of any constructive discussion.


It has been done to, occasionally literal, death of the projects affected(I'd consider Wildstar going F2P a 'death').

Give them an inch, they'll take your life, or as much of it as they can.

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Originally Posted by Naqel
Originally Posted by aj0413
Ehhh, I don't want to go into a discussions with such a polarized assumption. Benefit of the doubt/willingness to find compromise is an important part of any constructive discussion.


It has been done to, occasionally literal, death of the projects affected(I'd consider Wildstar going F2P a 'death').

Give them an inch, they'll take your life, or as much of it as they can.


*cringe* ouch, given examples like that, I can see why people don't want to give any inches....*sigh* I really wanted my naked, dancing barbarian who thinks he's a fairy godmother and my bark covered elves

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Originally Posted by BemusedBear
I know elf armor has been discussed in detail and there are some other long threads debating it. But I had a slightly tangential thought I wanted to throw out. What if elf armor that provided magic armor kept its current leafy/skimpy dryad look but armor that provided physical armor looked more tree bark like and more covering?

This would allow Larian to maintain its unique aesthetics for elf armor, but give those of us who may not love the look an in game option that thematically fit for a more covered/physically protected look (my elf knight just looks a bit odd as is so exposed).


That's already the case. Lighter armors are leafy, heavier armors are wood. It's only your "more covering" comment that would be any change from the way things are. And that is a point of view and one worth considering. But it's not one that I subscribe to. The elves have their aesthetic. I think it works for them. Their "skin" is already wood, so... *giant shrug*

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Originally Posted by BemusedBear
I know elf armor has been discussed in detail and there are some other long threads debating it. But I had a slightly tangential thought I wanted to throw out. What if elf armor that provided magic armor kept its current leafy/skimpy dryad look but armor that provided physical armor looked more tree bark like and more covering?

This would allow Larian to maintain its unique aesthetics for elf armor, but give those of us who may not love the look an in game option that thematically fit for a more covered/physically protected look (my elf knight just looks a bit odd as is so exposed).


That's kinda already in there. The cloth/leather is very leafy, while chain/plate are wooden looking. They just don't cover a lot. Which I get being upset with, it's not my cup of tea either. I'm a fan of High Elves myself, flowing robe armour and gleaming white weapons. But these elves are weird and wild and eat body parts to learn things, so their downright insane armour makes sense. It's very strange how much Larian elves change per game, but hey; It's their game, let the DMs do whatever they want.

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Originally Posted by aj0413
I like this idea +1

@Sordak
There's nothing wrong with a little compromise that removes nothing from the game. More options is never a bad thing


Oh but it does remove something. You are arguing to design a new set of armor to cater to those who have a problem with the elves current armor, that means you are arguing for Larian to allocate more time for this specific aspect of the game, and that time isn't going to magically appear out of thin air.

So ask yourself, what aspects of the game would you prefer to have less fleshed out so that some people who are sensitive about digital naked skin can be apeased?
Would you have less voice over dialogue?, some fewer skills? A couple of fewer quests? What is it you want to trade to solve this non issue?

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Does anyone even notice the armor models in game? I mean.... you pretty much have to zoom in and stare at your character to notice.

In many games character appearance is a big deal for me, but here? not much.

Look at the negative posts we have about armor and poses and notice..... none of these "issues" are even noticeable after character creation, which will be like 0.1% or less of the game.

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Originally Posted by Skallewag
Originally Posted by aj0413
I like this idea +1

@Sordak
There's nothing wrong with a little compromise that removes nothing from the game. More options is never a bad thing


Oh but it does remove something. You are arguing to design a new set of armor to cater to those who have a problem with the elves current armor, that means you are arguing for Larian to allocate more time for this specific aspect of the game, and that time isn't going to magically appear out of thin air.

So ask yourself, what aspects of the game would you prefer to have less fleshed out so that some people who are sensitive about digital naked skin can be apeased?
Would you have less voice over dialogue?, some fewer skills? A couple of fewer quests? What is it you want to trade to solve this non issue?


Well, I wouldn't consider one or two armor models all that intensive. But I'd be more than willing to trade out voices ;P
And not just armor models for the sensitive folks...the armor morphing kinda bugs me as well. A fighter elf......just doesn't really look like one at all to me; more like a well armored and camouflaged hunter.

Hell, I'd trade out voices all over and allocate that time to just about anything and everything. I'm perfectly happy with the music system and some ambient background noise

I'd actually be happier with the different armor models if it was a choice of having the elf wear the leafy stuff or actual plate.

Some people don't see the models as important but I appreciate my avatars looking stylish or interesting.

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Originally Posted by Skallewag

So ask yourself, what aspects of the game would you prefer to have less fleshed out so that some people who are sensitive about digital naked skin can be apeased?


Let me make clear right up front that I don't personally believe that this particular game has much of a problem in this area. But many, many games do, and I completely understand why it bothers some people in the ever evolving and diversifying computer game audience. Not everyone who plays these games looks like me, or thinks like me, but we all basically like the game.

But trying to dumb down the issues involved and frame it as prudish people that are "sensitive about naked digital skin", is to declare one's self completely unwilling to acknowledge, or incapable of grasping, context and nuance. Stabbing someone with a knife in anger and slicing them with a scalpel with medical intent are both mechanically similar actions, but serious adults are able to accept and weigh context, and the vast range of motivational differences involved.

I haven't been on these forums long, but what I've seen this past week is disturbing. I've been able to drop into most threads, and give feedback with mostly cordial responses, even from people who disagreed with me. But I've watched people who have concerns along these lines in multiple threads be met without outright hostility, with immediate and aggressive attempts to shut down the discussion altogether.

"This discussion doesn't belong here--go someplace else" to the hilariously hypocritical "Why are you questioning the developers artistic vision???"--as if respect for the artistic vision of the developers is any factor when they decide to go to another thread and complain all day long about some aspect of the game's design that *they* wish was better.

This very thread, started by someone who wasn't even criticizing the game on this point, but rather suggesting a diplomatic solution, was met immediately with:

Quote
there needs to be no solution sicne there is no problem.


You can't stop the discussion, folks. Society is changing, attitudes are changing, traditional game audiences are changing, and media representational issues are under scrutiny. Nothing whatsoever that you can do or say can stop that. You can make one thread so nasty that it will be closed, but it will keep coming back. The discussion will continue, people will keep having these opinions, and developers will continue to change to adapt to the changing audience out of necessity.

The only thing you have the power to do is to make trouble for Larian by continuing to go beyond stating disagreement, into overly aggressive and harassing attempts to shut down the discussion of people who don't think they same way you do.

Personally, I choose to find it liberating that I have no power to stop overwhelming societal change. It frees me from having to go into hand-wringing frenzy every time someone posts an opinion I don't agree with, and the futility of tilting at certain windmills. It was also a big help when I realized that not everyone who wishes the characters they'd like to play looked as heroic as all the other options, was judging me for the things that I liked or trying to take something away from me. They want something for *themselves* that I realized, in the bigger picture, didn't really affect me to any significant degree.

...


Originally Posted by Skallewag

Would you have less voice over dialogue?


Not that I accept your premise that changing some textures or the appearance of specific armors is nearly as big of a deal as some of the things you hold up as equivalents, but yeah, sure. I would definitely throw most of the voice work out of the game in return for encouraging developers to make better decisions about these things in the first place (again, not that I agree this game has a serious problem in this regard).

Voice work (in my opinion, obviously) is a colossal waste of resources in most RPGs. Top quality voice talent costs a lot of money, and bad or uninspired voice work is *worse* than no voice work at all many times over. It's so much easier to be annoyed by voice acting, than impressed by it, and the voice work in the first game wasn't really anything I'd worry about losing.

Even if you do spend to get really top quality actors, I'm not going to hear it anyway. Like most literate people, I can read a sentence far faster than it takes some actor to emote the words in suitable dramatic fashion. I'm skipping all that voice work wholesale, and infuriated when I cant, as if time itself is slowing down, forcing me me to wait on some interminable speech.


....

Obviously some people are going to disagree with me on these things, and some people are not going to do it very nicely. That's fine. Flame away to your hearts content. I assure you I wont be reading it, and you'll just flailing away making your echo chamber arguments for the ever diminishing segment of society your opinions represent. So congratulations, you got rid of me, but the discussions will continue.


*Larian, I'm sorry for the drama. I know you guys are just trying to make a game, and I know it isn't easy. But I am leaving these forums because you let certain entrenched forum members go beyond simple disagreement to try to aggressively shut down feedback which *you* invited users to give as a part of your Early Access commercial phase. I will also be informing people that the Larian forums are a hostile place to certain segments of your audience, and that by allowing it you advertise falsely when you say player feedback is important to you.

Also, your new armor system is terrible.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Rube
[quote=Skallewag]
So ask yourself, what aspects of the game would you prefer to have less fleshed out so that some people who are sensitive about digital naked skin can be apeased?


Let me make clear right up front that I don't personally believe that this particular game has much of a problem in this area. But many, many games do, and I completely understand why it bothers some people in the ever evolving and diversifying computer game audience. Not everyone who plays these games looks like me, or thinks like me, but we all basically like the game.

But trying to dumb down the issues involved and frame it as prudish people that are "sensitive about naked digital skin", is to declare one's self completely unwilling to acknowledge, or incapable of grasping, context and nuance. Stabbing someone with a knife in anger and slicing them with a scalpel with medical intent are both mechanically similar actions, but serious adults are able to accept and weigh context, and the vast range of motivational differences involved.

I haven't been on these forums long, but what I've seen this past week is disturbing. I've been able to drop into most threads, and give feedback with mostly cordial responses, even from people who disagreed with me. But I've watched people who have concerns along these lines in multiple threads be met without outright hostility, with immediate and aggressive attempts to shut down the discussion altogether.

"This discussion doesn't belong here--go someplace else" to the hilariously hypocritical "Why are you questioning the developers artistic vision???"--as if respect for the artistic vision of the developers is any factor when they decide to go to another thread and complain all day long about some aspect of the game's design that *they* wish was better.

This very thread, started by someone who wasn't even criticizing the game on this point, but rather suggesting a diplomatic solution, was met immediately with:

Quote
there needs to be no solution sicne there is no problem.


Or in other threads:

Quote

No.
This sort of nonsense belongs to Tumblr not here.



You can't stop the discussion, folks. Society is changing, attitudes are changing, traditional game audiences are changing, and media representational issues are under scrutiny. Nothing whatsoever that you can do or say can stop that. You can make one thread so nasty that it will be closed, but it will keep coming back. The discussion will continue, people will keep having these opinions, and developers will continue to change to adapt to the changing audience out of necessity.

The only thing you have the power to do is to make trouble for Larian by continuing to go beyond stating disagreement, into overly aggressive and harassing attempts to shut down the discussion of people who don't think they same way you do.

Personally, I choose to find it liberating that I have no power to stop overwhelming societal change. It frees me from having to go into hand-wringing frenzy every time someone posts an opinion I don't agree with, and the futility of tilting at certain windmills. It was also a big help when I realized that not everyone who wishes the characters they'd like to play looked as heroic as all the other options, was judging me for the things that I liked or trying to take something away from me. They want something for *themselves* that I realized, in the bigger picture, didn't really affect me to any significant degree.

...


Originally Posted by Skallewag

Would you have less voice over dialogue?


Not that I accept your premise that changing some textures or the appearance of specific armors is nearly as big of a deal as some of the things you hold up as equivalents, but yeah, sure. I would definitely throw most of the voice work out of the game in return for encouraging developers to make better decisions about these things in the first place (again, not that I agree this game has a serious problem in this regard).

Voice work (in my opinion, obviously) is a colossal waste of resources in most RPGs. Top quality voice talent costs a lot of money, and bad or uninspired voice work is *worse* than no voice work at all many times over. It's so much easier to be annoyed by voice acting, than impressed by it, and the voice work in the first game wasn't really anything I'd worry about losing.

Even if you do spend to get really top quality actors, I'm not going to hear it anyway. Like most literate people, I can read a sentence far faster than it takes some actor to emote the words in suitably dramatic fashion. I'm skipping all that voice work wholesale, and infuriated when I cant, as if time itself is slowing down, forcing me me to wait on some interminable speech.


....

Obviously some people are going to disagree with me on these things, and some people are not going to do it very nicely. That's fine. Flame away to your hearts content. I assure you I wont be reading it, and you'll just flailing away making your echo chamber arguments for the ever diminishing segment of society your opinions represent. So congratulations, you got rid of me, but the discussions will continue.


*Larian, I'm sorry for the drama. I know you guys are just trying to make a game, and I know it isn't easy. But I am leaving these forums because you let certain entrenched forum members go beyond simple disagreement to try to aggressively shut down feedback which *you* invited users to give as a part of your Early Access commercial phase. I will also be informing people that the Larian forums are a hostile place to certain segments of your audience, and that by allowing it you advertise falsely when you say player feedback is important to you.

Also, your new armor system is terrible.

Good luck!

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That is one seriously triggered rant piece o.O

Last edited by aj0413; 01/10/16 05:09 AM.
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This is typical of any game that has a fanbase

You are going to fight an uphill battle making a point next to people who will violently defend any and everything in a game unless it is "popularly bad".

Unless someone attacks you personally or dismisses your ideas in a rude way... it doesn't matter how many times someone disagrees with you because the people who count will read what you say and they don't care how much a yes-man fawns over something.

(Likewise: No matter what you are going to have negative and bitter people, no matter how great a game is.

Overall, just be nice to eachother. Everyone wants this game to be the best game possible.)

---

That said... I don't see the Elf stuff as an issue.

I think the Elves need better characterization is all.

As I've said many times... Would you currently believe the elves in this game would wear and use this stuff?

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Heh, thats the funny thing tho. Society isn't changing in the way you suggest. People in general have not suddenly become puritans. The issue is that there is a certain ideology that has become ingrained in education at all levels, in nearly every major media network, and in legislation as well.
The rants about clothing in gaming is not caused by the gamer demographic changing, its is the result of a generation of kids getting their heads filled with retarded ideas in school and now they feel a need to crusade about it everywhere.

Gamers however (you know the people who actually spend their time and money on enjoying videogames), they as always simply likes games that are fun to play. They are also increasingly getting fed up with feminist bullshit narratives trying to muck up their hobby. In fact people in general are getting fed up. Thats why the number of people who identify as feminists is ever shrinking, while the group that does becomes ever more whacky extreme.

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Yes but by the same merit...

We are having an increasing number of actual racists and sexists denouncing games and titles as being "feminist" or "SJW" for doing things such as "having a female protagonist". Using the counter movement as a shield for pushing their beliefs.

But then again Horseshoe theory... The extremes on both sides share more in common with each other than they do with the middle.

A thing to remember about "Sexy armor" and elves is... Elves are grotesque... They are horrifyingly ugly...

They are definitely not the "pretty" elf stereotype.

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Not more SJW whining. There is NO issue with showing a little skin and clearly you are not educated in the lore of fantasy elves and their habitats. A Druid, spriggan and elf generally don't wear humanoid-crafted clothing/armour and make their own using nature elements, compromising some protection for lighter load and able to perform more acrobatic movements (or higher speed).

It's only sexy if you YOU think it is.

It would be very boring and uncreative if every class, every race , every gender wore everything exactly the same. I want skin here, I want full protection over there, maybe somewhere in between for this and that race.

Please Larian, don't listen to these SJWs trying to censor your hard work.

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Oh come on "everything is changing" no it is not.
The same people are playing games as before. Technical standards are rising and so are the standards of writing but that does not mean the demographic changes.

Witcher has sold well, Sunset hasnt.
None of those hipster games sell because ultimatley they are bad. Core games sell because they are good.

There is no influx of hipsters buying hipster games. There is mereley an influx of Hipsters telling core gamers that Hipsters are buying games, then they complete the act by not following up on the promise and companies attempting to cater to said hipsters fall flat on their asses.

See Double Fine. See Bioware, see gearbox whose recent game completley failed to capture any attention.

All the while CD Project and established brands like Blizzard are making big buck.

In fact id say the core audience is stronger than ever.
You know what game was a huge success? Total Fucking Warhammer. That brand doesnt even exist anymore and people are buying it. Guess how politically correct that setting is.

Face it. Hipsters dont buy games. Gamers buy games.

And gamers universally are fed up with Hipsters trying to push their annoying politics into our hobbies that we use to escape from exactly this kind of ideology filled world we live in right now.

EDIT: Oh yeah "actual racist and sexists" ok how about you follow that up with some proof.
Because the only way i can see that as valid is if you are one of those that thinks Pepe the Frog is a White Nationalist symbol or some nonsense like that.

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