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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by SlamPow
Alright, so one thing you'll learn about me, is that I actually have what doctors call a "severely impaired" memory, which means that I'm actually in the bottom .1% of the population, routinely forgetting things that I've just done. Can't do much to help that.

But yes, I would be all for giving this system a try. That doesn't mean I think I'll like it, though.

The problem with your suggested solution for making mages useful is that it revolves around things that can no longer be done, unlike in the first game. Field control is nigh useless between the prevalence of Phoenix Dive, the added range on archers, and the fact that Battle Stomp exists, and easily cleanses surfaces. Dropping mad combos in the first game was a matter of simply having enough AP to do so; in this game, you have enough AP to cast 2 of what I would consider reasonably costed 1 memory CC or damage spells per turn, and if you say you think a high level air spell will do potentially rip off their armor and CC them, let me remind you that memory costs, AP costs and cooldowns are all going to increase with spell level. So a spell that does this would probably cost 4+ AP, and would be too powerful to be multiple target. So theoretically, this very powerful air spell could rip of their armor and stun them... could. Or a warrior could dive them, rage, and use [insert overpowered replacement for the nerfed crippling blow here]. I don't have to get lucky to kill something in one turn with a knight, and so far, I've yet to see anything otherwise in any divinity game that I've played. Specifically, when you say things like

Originally Posted by aj0413
In this EA they simply made warriors too powerful to make up for the difference in past games.


it confuses me, and runs counter to my own 500 combined hours of experience in DOS and EE.

In DOS, warriors were known for one shotting the last boss.

In EE, they were known for outdamaging Mages to the point that the latter was overshadowed and rendered nigh useless by comparison. Where are you getting the impression that this has ever not been the case? What causes you to think that this will change in the second game, despite the current appearance that the trend is meant to continue?



It's fine, man.

And yeah, there's plenty of issues with game currently. Remember that they plan to play around with other version of AP, Abilities, Skills, Stats (especially memory), and AP costs.

I don't have a perfect answer for everything, but I hold out hope that during this extensive EA they'll get it all right.

Warriors could one shot the last boss.....and Mages could simply deny the boss ever having a turn. Generally, finishing the Void Dragon in one turn consisted of a Mage using Hail to freeze it and then a warrior to finish it off. It played to their strengths. A warrior dealth the damage but had to warrior about CC, runninfg into enemies couldn't just bash and so on. Mages basically had God Tier field ontrol in the end. Blind everyone and set the on fire turn one. Poison and mass weakness and thunder jump turn one. Smoke screen to force all enemies to, including ranged, to move in close range and bunch up. Attack and go invisible and rinse and repeat....

Don't even get me started on glasscannon lonewolf mages in Classic: 16AP a turn......And in that one turn I could have frozen three enemies, stunned the rest, and then follow up with poison. Next I just start sporing and firballs and blind. One minmaxed wizard could effectively fight all the enemies at once without ever being hit.

The only thing warriors did better was single target damage. And in te turn he killed one or two, I basically CC'd and half killed two to three times as many. This isn't bringing in the all the summons

This dynamic didn't change overly much in EE. Dual Mage runs are still one of the easiest ways to beat the game.

You can ask around about that though, if you want other opinions.


Nono, I trust you. I finished EE classic mode with a single lone wolf mage, and did Tactician with two min maxed cheese mages. I still think I had an easier time with warriors (battering ram, rage, smack smack), but mages were certainly by far more fun. But that reminds me, I think the biggest change, which I forgot to mention, is the cooldown reduction from INT being gone. This means that the skills you do have are way harder to spam, and memory is really the only solution if you want to have a spam build like you did in the first game. Depending on whether stats influence CC chances or not in your proposal, this could spell the death of the CC mage, once low tier CC starts to fall of so hard that you're forced into using higher tier stuff, and then start running out of memory and end up with two cooldowns that are, once again, only likely to work, and only if you can get their magical armor down first. I have no doubt that once we get off of this poor prison colony island, and enemies start wearing real gear, magic armor is going to be a lot harder to chew through in a single turn. As it is, I already fear for the viability of my solo mage build. so I really hope that they either change memory in a big way, so as to allow mages to, uh... not perish in a gutter, as such a fate would consign them to... or they add in cooldown reduction again, so that we can more effectively use the few skills that we do have.
But I digress.

I too am interested to see what they do with AP, cooldowns, memory, etc. The idea I've heard most is that they should try a 1:1 ratio on memory to memory slots, but I'm not so sure about that, even if they do increase the slot cost of most skills. How would you change memory, if it were up to you?

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Yeah the cooldown reduction and lack of spell spamming changed alot the dynamics this time around. And was probably the best thing they ever did in EE to not make magic literally break encounters over my knee. I don't care what anyone says; having the ability to deny every single enemy, up to and including bosses, a single turn or chance to ever hit you right after level 5? That's game breaking. Combat is no longer about combat tactics but just about how long it takes me to kill a particularly more meaty enemy no matter the level difference. Hell, I would thrown haste for 20AP and then just see experimenter with how I could have fun. At least you have to somewhat think with a warrior till end game. At which point both were overpowered. One denied the opponent ever having the ability to act and had field control and the other could OHKO everything and be effectively resistant to everything unless you were unlucky.

Funny thought: Place the two classes against each other and the mage would just keep teleporting the warrior away and raising ice walls in the way. And if the warrior magically got close there was invisibility and then summons followed by Drain Willpower and then stun. An infinite game of Tom and Jerry really. I imagine enough debuffs to lower resistances and then attacking with summons and spells after finally managing to CC the warrior would eventually win the day though. Depends on how high the resistances were. And I don't think warriors could be immune to poison unless they had Zombie at which point mage just uses Heal.

I find it odd that you'd think it was easier with the warriors, but it may just be a case of you remebering that in end game you could make yourself immune to most things and one shot everyone vs taking the slightly longer but far more cheesey and safe mage route and just deny a turn to everything. It's two different play styles.

And yeah, they really need to balance things so mages don't die.

One person mentioned decreasing memory costs for skill types based around ability level in a certain skill ability while also rehashing memory slots on many skills. On top of this would be fixing the broken stat system and pressuring fighters to need more Con and stuff. This way Mages can focus on raising spell school abilities and MEM & INT so they can generally have the most skills in the game and be like fragile wizards in past game and encouraging fighters to specialize more in their fighting skills and abilities and survivability.

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Originally Posted by aj0413


Funny thought: Place the two classes against each other and the mage would just keep teleporting the warrior away and raising ice walls in the way. And if the warrior magically got close there was invisibility and then summons followed by Drain Willpower and then stun. An infinite game of Tom and Jerry really. I imagine enough debuffs to lower resistances and then attacking with summons and spells after finally managing to CC the warrior would eventually win the day though. Depends on how high the resistances were. And I don't think warriors could be immune to poison unless they had Zombie at which point mage just uses Heal.


Hmmm, I disagree. Phoenix Dive, Battering Ram. Mage is on the ground, warrior just goes smack. Invisibility? Whirlwind. You moved afterwards? K, bye.

It really is just cat and mouse. I think it would come down to initiative, honestly. Unless the warrior is too far to phoenix dive + battering ram, but that's kinda silly.

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Originally Posted by SlamPow
Originally Posted by aj0413


Funny thought: Place the two classes against each other and the mage would just keep teleporting the warrior away and raising ice walls in the way. And if the warrior magically got close there was invisibility and then summons followed by Drain Willpower and then stun. An infinite game of Tom and Jerry really. I imagine enough debuffs to lower resistances and then attacking with summons and spells after finally managing to CC the warrior would eventually win the day though. Depends on how high the resistances were. And I don't think warriors could be immune to poison unless they had Zombie at which point mage just uses Heal.


Hmmm, I disagree. Phoenix Dive, Battering Ram. Mage is on the ground, warrior just goes smack. Invisibility? Whirlwind. You moved afterwards? K, bye.

It really is just cat and mouse. I think it would come down to initiative, honestly. Unless the warrior is too far to phoenix dive + battering ram, but that's kinda silly.


Well because the warrior is normally so item dependent it's easier to build initiative gear up on a mage which is why I'd assume they go first. And give far our man and teleport; it's not odd at all if the mage just keeps the warrior from effect range or uses one of the spells to make them immune to warrior CC like invulnerability or earth shield(?). On the other hand, of the fighter did indeed get a chance to go first, I could definitely see him trying and having a high chance at succeeding in ending the conflict before it began. Alternatively, a mage could just Drain and CC the warrior if he goes first if he wants.

First turn would basically win though. It's easy to imagine either or winning. Fight either kills mage round one or mage CC locks fighter for eternity till he dies while seething in impotent range round one to how ever long it takes him to die (more than likely three rounds average I think)

There's also the fact that mages generally take glasscannon for extra initiative too while warriors like to keep their health

Last edited by aj0413; 04/10/16 05:03 AM.
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Well that solves that mystery, then. FWIW, I always built tons of speed on my warriors, and gave them Bless to make up for their terrible to-hit, so if it were my build in particular, I could see it going first, is the reason I argue that he could indeed have the initiative.

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Originally Posted by SlamPow
Well that solves that mystery, then. FWIW, I always built tons of speed on my warriors, and gave them Bless to make up for their terrible to-hit, so if it were my build in particular, I could see it going first, is the reason I argue that he could indeed have the initiative.


Mah mah, everyone was god in one form or another end game. Too bad we can't test things like this arena mod though :P if we could all build our own characters from scratch and send them in with ideal gear it'd be fun as a side PvP thing.

lol though everyone would just build initiative at one point I think

Last edited by aj0413; 04/10/16 05:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413
Originally Posted by SlamPow
Well that solves that mystery, then. FWIW, I always built tons of speed on my warriors, and gave them Bless to make up for their terrible to-hit, so if it were my build in particular, I could see it going first, is the reason I argue that he could indeed have the initiative.


lol though everyone would just build initiative at one point I think


Yee, or at least 1 more than whatever's "meta".

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i like the idea of Enrage but it should give a debuff after that. Like in most of the D&D edition

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Originally Posted by lukimuki
i like the idea of Enrage but it should give a debuff after that. Like in most of the D&D edition


Not that this is a bad idea, but it won't change anything - right now, you can slaughter every priority target while you're Raging. Getting a debuff when you only have trash enemies left to mop up won't matter.

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Yeah, due to current broken battle mechanics the fight is over, before enraged runs out. laugh

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