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D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades #591214
03/10/16 08:56 PM
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Lightzy Offline OP
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Please just remove them. It will only improve the game. Don't replace them with anything, just take the stupid dumb things out.

It's just freaking stupid that every single character has every possible damage/area effect type available to them for no cost, at no skill.
Especially when you make 0 attempts to balance it in any way (ended DOS1 with I guess a bajillion grenades).
It either trivializes and cheapens the skills system if you use them, or annoying clutter if you don't (which I don't, because it makes D:OS2 much more "easy mode", like it did in DOS1)

Last edited by Lightzy; 03/10/16 08:57 PM.
Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591216
03/10/16 09:06 PM
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I actually liked the grenades in DOS1. But then again, maybe I'm just excessively violent.
😉

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591219
03/10/16 09:15 PM
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I feel that if grenades should go, then so should special arrows. They serve exactly the same purpose, but one of them has an arbitrary limitation that makes no sense, especially when literally any character with 10 finesse can equip a bow and be just as efficient with them as any specialized archer could be.

But, personally, I feel that grenades have their place. Maybe they are too strong, but they are a limited resource, so I feel that balances out their usefulness IMO. Maybe make them drop less, of course, since they seem pretty plentiful, especially when noone even has basic supplies, like fresh water and fruit, but are somehow armed to the teeth with these grenades, and special arrows, and invisibility potions.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591227
03/10/16 09:35 PM
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Removing things completely is almost never the solution. As someone who enjoys playing scoundrels /rogues in RPGs, I see literally no reason to remove them, you'd only be fucking over non-mages.

SlamPow has more or less the right idea, making them more rare won't be a bad change. Thing is, people who explore will still have more than enough of them, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd bring back the throw spread and tie it to Finesse. Introducing damage /CC fall-off would be nice as well.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Klavi] #591241
03/10/16 10:07 PM
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Lightzy Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Klavi
Removing things completely is almost never the solution. As someone who enjoys playing scoundrels /rogues in RPGs, I see literally no reason to remove them, you'd only be fucking over non-mages.

SlamPow has more or less the right idea, making them more rare won't be a bad change. Thing is, people who explore will still have more than enough of them, and there's nothing you can do about that.
I'd bring back the throw spread and tie it to Finesse. Introducing damage /CC fall-off would be nice as well.


I'd argue that removing them is a solution exactly because DOS1 was a better game, better balanced, without them.
Just one of those fucking "charm" grenades is enough to end combat.

After scrolls and arrows it's just like "LETS GIVE EVERYONE EVERYTHING! GHUHAHUH?"

And yes it doesn't help that Larian treats all that crap as if there's a spell, special arrow or grenade under every fucking seashell, but that's their style. It's not for balance, it's for retarded children to feel like they're hitting a pinniata and getting candy. If they thought they were balancing the game then it'd have been sad, but I honestly believe they're consciously going for the "pinniata!" design instead of balanced game design.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591249
03/10/16 10:36 PM
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I feel that a scarcity of resources, such as with Source Points, would certainly help to alleviate this issue quite a bit, if not completely. What say you to this: by the end of Act I, you find one Bottled Inferno lying next to the Houndmaster's Crossbow, and one frost grenade on Magister Captain Trippel. Both guaranteed drops, no chance that you'll end up with tons of CC by happenstance, and you're never missing out on the opportunity to get these items because they are placed loot. Would you feel that they are balanced then?

Also... I personally think that Charm grenades and arrows cross the line. They are way too powerful, period. Even if they only affected half the targets they hit. Even if they only had a 50% success rate. Still too strong. No thank you.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Klavi] #591250
03/10/16 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Klavi
Removing things completely is almost never the solution. As someone who enjoys playing scoundrels /rogues in RPGs, I see literally no reason to remove them, you'd only be fucking over non-mages.

I think that handing out grenades that simply emulate mage spells is a poor way to balance this.

I would definitely prefer that non-mages should have the skill trees to be interesting without these kinds of add-ons.

As for grenades, they can stay, but they should have a unique role. It should be different from any other item or ability.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Ayvah] #591256
03/10/16 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Originally Posted By: Klavi
Removing things completely is almost never the solution. As someone who enjoys playing scoundrels /rogues in RPGs, I see literally no reason to remove them, you'd only be fucking over non-mages.

I think that handing out grenades that simply emulate mage spells is a poor way to balance this.

I would definitely prefer that non-mages should have the skill trees to be interesting without these kinds of add-ons.

As for grenades, they can stay, but they should have a unique role. It should be different from any other item or ability.


What sort of unique role would you propose?

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591264
03/10/16 11:30 PM
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If grenades are removed that makes the Rogue less balanced... grenades are one thing they can excel in.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591272
03/10/16 11:55 PM
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Removing special arrows would turn rangers kind of in pure autoattackers, so surely would help nothing. Removing grenades would probably make pure warrior or rogue skillsets quite impossible, because they would have hardly anything to do, if there are to many ground effects going on. Grenades are a nice add, but honestly me and my friendly hardly ever use them.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Plumpbiscuit] #591273
03/10/16 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Plumpbiscuit
If grenades are removed that makes the Rogue less balanced... grenades are one thing they can excel in.


I must politely disagree with you.

Rage + Flesh Sacrifice + Scoundrel investment + Backstabber + Dual wielding + Vault + Guerilla = 3 AP, easy 600 damage, lined up for a backstab, and it has travel that does not cause surfaces to affect you or enemies to opera you. Grenades are icing on the cake, and since anyone could use them, I wouldn't think it fair to say they're strong on rogues. I'd just say they're strong in general.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591298
04/10/16 01:44 AM
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Ya know, you could just really lower the chance of grenade CC working or remove the ones like Charm (which don't rightly make sense anyway).

I loved having grenades in EE though. Hell, I'm recently doing a slow play-through where my entire sheild+one handed fighters thing is to throw grenades around herself while eventually having 100+% all resist from rubies + 15-20% all resist from armor + 15% water resist from eating Clam guy + 25% all resist from absorb elements + 15% all resist from Iron Hide + 40% all resist from Elemental Tortoise.....It's frickin hilarious how she can drop grenades off all types on herself, heal, and avoid CCing herself with bodybuilding and willpower.

Grenades present their own kind of playstyle smile

Making them more rare and expensive and requiring higher crafting would help mitigate abusing them in all builds and playthroughs though.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591301
04/10/16 01:54 AM
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imo granades are a great way of diversifying melee characters.

The fact is that original sin kind of lives off its interactions.
without granades or special arrows non wizard characters are not partaking in a large part of what makes the combat work.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: SlamPow] #591310
04/10/16 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: SlamPow
Rage + Flesh Sacrifice + Scoundrel investment + Backstabber + Dual wielding + Vault + Guerilla = 3 AP, easy 600 damage, lined up for a backstab, and it has travel that does not cause surfaces to affect you or enemies to opera you. Grenades are icing on the cake, and since anyone could use them, I wouldn't think it fair to say they're strong on rogues. I'd just say they're strong in general.


Doesn't Rage only boost your critical chance to 100%? That does nothing for a Rogue, who should always have a 100% crit chance because of backstabbing.

Dual-Wielding + Vault + Sneak (for Guerrilla) is 4 AP, and Guerrilla is pretty useless because at only 50% extra damage, it doesn't increase your damage per AP over just simply using regular attacks.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Stabbey] #591311
04/10/16 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Originally Posted By: SlamPow
Rage + Flesh Sacrifice + Scoundrel investment + Backstabber + Dual wielding + Vault + Guerilla = 3 AP, easy 600 damage, lined up for a backstab, and it has travel that does not cause surfaces to affect you or enemies to opera you. Grenades are icing on the cake, and since anyone could use them, I wouldn't think it fair to say they're strong on rogues. I'd just say they're strong in general.


Doesn't Rage only boost your critical chance to 100%? That does nothing for a Rogue, who should always have a 100% crit chance because of backstabbing.

Dual-Wielding + Vault + Sneak (for Guerrilla) is 4 AP, and Guerrilla is pretty useless because at only 50% extra damage, it doesn't increase your damage per AP over just simply using regular attacks.


Hey, Guerrilla is very useful considering how often you can go into sneak in a match. Hell, on a one handed rogue I can go into sneak with my last AP every turn and use it for a sneak attack at the start of every other

It's also very useful for sniper Huntsman elves

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Stabbey] #591313
04/10/16 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Originally Posted By: SlamPow
Rage + Flesh Sacrifice + Scoundrel investment + Backstabber + Dual wielding + Vault + Guerilla = 3 AP, easy 600 damage, lined up for a backstab, and it has travel that does not cause surfaces to affect you or enemies to opera you. Grenades are icing on the cake, and since anyone could use them, I wouldn't think it fair to say they're strong on rogues. I'd just say they're strong in general.


Doesn't Rage only boost your critical chance to 100%? That does nothing for a Rogue, who should always have a 100% crit chance because of backstabbing.

Dual-Wielding + Vault + Sneak (for Guerrilla) is 4 AP, and Guerrilla is pretty useless because at only 50% extra damage, it doesn't increase your damage per AP over just simply using regular attacks.

Guerilla can be set up the turn before, preventing you from having to spend AP on it during the turn in question. Rage stacks with backstabs. Don't know how. Don't know why. But it makes you do ~ 25-33% more damage depending on the crit damage of your daggers.

Last edited by SlamPow; 04/10/16 03:05 AM.
Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: aj0413] #591316
04/10/16 03:24 AM
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I haven't used Rage, so I'll take your word on that for now, but as for Guerrilla, I've done the math.

Single-wielding attacks cost 1 AP
Dual wielding attacks cost 2 AP.
Guerrilla adds +50% damage and the Sneak to make use of it costs 1 AP. That additional AP has to be factored into the cost, whether you use the attack on the same turn or the next one.

Using Guerrilla with 1 weapon does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 2 attacks.
Using Guerrilla when dual-wielding does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 1.5 attacks. (In other words, you're not any better off using it than you would be for using normal attacks).

It is only useful when attacks do not cost AP - as in you enter combat through a sneak attack.

You get 4 AP per turn, so entering Sneak the turn before instead of saving that AP for the next turn only is a net AP benefit if you have 3+ AP left at the end of your turn and would "lose" an AP when the 4 from the next turn is added to fill the 3 empty AP bubbles. If you have 1 or 2 AP at the end, Sneaking will prevent you from being seen, but it is one fewer AP than you would have had on the next turn.

Last edited by Stabbey; 04/10/16 03:28 AM. Reason: next turn AP
Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Stabbey] #591319
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
I haven't used Rage, so I'll take your word on that for now, but as for Guerrilla, I've done the math.

Single-wielding attacks cost 1 AP
Dual wielding attacks cost 2 AP.
Guerrilla adds +50% damage and the Sneak to make use of it costs 1 AP. That additional AP has to be factored into the cost, whether you use the attack on the same turn or the next one.

Using Guerrilla with 1 weapon does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 2 attacks.
Using Guerrilla when dual-wielding does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 1.5 attacks. (In other words, you're not any better off using it than you would be for using normal attacks).

It is only useful when attacks do not cost AP - as in you enter combat through a sneak attack.

You get 4 AP per turn, so entering Sneak the turn before instead of saving that AP for the next turn only is a net AP benefit if you have 3+ AP left at the end of your turn and would "lose" an AP when the 4 from the next turn is added to fill the 3 empty AP bubbles. If you have 1 or 2 AP at the end, Sneaking will prevent you from being seen, but it is one fewer AP than you would have had on the next turn.


Many people sometimes forget that while the burst damage of a dual wield rogue could be hire given skills and sneak attacks, the 1AP cost of 1h weapons allow for greater tactical flexibility. It's fairly easy to fit a 1AP skill/attack into any turn and still do a few other things, but it can be limiting to have to always require (plan for) 2AP of dual wielding.

While the bonuses from dual wielding can be a turning point in decisions, I find that the advantage mitigated by the fact that characters will still be limited in tactical flexibility. The bonuses will make their burst damage higher and their skill effects powerful, but they will still be limited in how they can make use of them.

The ability to, assuming 4 AP a turn, get to:
- [attack/use skill/move from sneak->attack/use skill/move->attack/use skill/move->go back into hiding] is fairly strong

vs

- [attack/use skill/move from sneak->attack/use skill/move or attack/use skillmove from sneak->use skill -> go into hiding or ...] where you must decide what to commit to

Then you have to consider how useful Sneak is in combat and how powerful it is tactically. It prevents the enemy from targeting you that turn and lets you safely cooldown skills and position yourself.

The fact is: for those people that plan to sneak alot in combat Guerrilla is plenty useful. Could be better; warrios come to mind. But far from useless. Also, When using a rogue of some kind and initiating all your damage bonuses and then getting a crit, that +50% is very very non trivial.

EDIT: I was lazy and basically copied majority of this from my post in 1h vs dual wield :P Yay for Action Economy!

EDIE2: Also, also, shouldn't this thread be focused on grenades!? I'm so easily distracted! @.@

Last edited by aj0413; 04/10/16 03:46 AM.
Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Stabbey] #591322
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
I haven't used Rage, so I'll take your word on that for now, but as for Guerrilla, I've done the math.

Single-wielding attacks cost 1 AP
Dual wielding attacks cost 2 AP.
Guerrilla adds +50% damage and the Sneak to make use of it costs 1 AP. That additional AP has to be factored into the cost, whether you use the attack on the same turn or the next one.

Using Guerrilla with 1 weapon does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 2 attacks.
Using Guerrilla when dual-wielding does the damage of 1.5 attacks for the AP cost of 1.5 attacks. (In other words, you're not any better off using it than you would be for using normal attacks).

It is only useful when attacks do not cost AP - as in you enter combat through a sneak attack.

You get 4 AP per turn, so entering Sneak the turn before instead of saving that AP for the next turn only is a net AP benefit if you have 3+ AP left at the end of your turn and would "lose" an AP when the 4 from the next turn is added to fill the 3 empty AP bubbles. If you have 1 or 2 AP at the end, Sneaking will prevent you from being seen, but it is one fewer AP than you would have had on the next turn.


Eh. I could see a scenario where I'd end up saving more than the max AP, for example if I had recently used Adrenaline, and still had the +1 max buff. Granted, that is situational, and Guerilla is likely to only be useful for maximizing skills like Vault, where the total added damage equates to more than 1 AP's worth. But I'll leave it alone. The talent is probably better off being used on an archer, for Sniping purposes.

Re: D:OS1 was MUCH better before grenades [Re: Lightzy] #591353
04/10/16 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: Lightzy
Please just remove them. It will only improve the game. Don't replace them with anything, just take the stupid dumb things out.

It's just freaking stupid that every single character has every possible damage/area effect type available to them for no cost, at no skill.
Especially when you make 0 attempts to balance it in any way (ended DOS1 with I guess a bajillion grenades).
It either trivializes and cheapens the skills system if you use them, or annoying clutter if you don't (which I don't, because it makes D:OS2 much more "easy mode", like it did in DOS1)


Divinity Original Sin was NOT a better game in before grenades:

1- Speaking of balance, the Tactical Mode wasn't any easier than the hard mode in the vanilla game (mostly because mobs were using grenades as well as you). Ok, both versions were remarkably easy once you grasped the basics of combat and char building, but grenades were not the culprits.
2- Grenades, exactly like special arrows, were added as a tool for non-mage characters to get involved in the "combo spell minigame", which is the core of D:OS combat system. So they actually helped to balance character builds, not the other way around.
3 - Aside from some notable exceptions (charm grenades, which are overpowered like any other charming item/skill in the game) grenades were OP only in the fist half of D:OS, not in the mid-end where their damage output was trivial.

Having said that, I agree with some of your points.
1- The effectiveness of grenades and special arrows (range, AoE, damage output, chance to miss, etc.) should be somhow related to your character build.
2- It's definitely too easy to get a shitload of grenades/special arrows during a normal playthrough.

Changing the drop rate of both would definitely help with point 2, but I've always felt that - given the huge amount of consumables you're gonna find no matter what - this game desperately needs an item quick bar in order to limit the usage of consumables in combat.
This would help also with the scrolls spam.

Last edited by Baudolino05; 04/10/16 09:44 AM.
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