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Originally Posted by aj0413


Ah, I was focused on the whole using skills "hybrid"

I still say I don't like how current stat system works for anyone and the abilties need work

But I see your point on facilitating converting damage types and warfare's use for such

Wouldn't skills that are in magic schools but are meant for Might type characters be good enough though? Such as a skill to add elemental damage to a weapon? Or touch spells that can be channeled through weapons (via a talent)?

Also, can't Air be used to do the same as Warfare? ...If not could they make it so?

Honestly, though I'd much prefer changing the abilties and doing what your suggesting through either a new school of skills and a new combat ability, skills spread through out schools, and/or a talent.

Also, wouldn't a hybrid character who could cause massive damage of either or and/or both armor types at will be obscenely strong in a well made fighter type? They'd have to be balanced around sacrificing a large portion of their single target damage potential to make up for the variability...same as a mage, but not to the same extent (though mages need some work too).



Well, you'll be ~20% damage behind purists and that's perfectly fine since you're able to strike whatever is more vulnerable. So in terms of burst damage you actually should be able to catch up with purists builds in some cases since it's less armor to chew through.

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@Limz Lol the defender of the OP, thanks man -- but that was just my definition of hybrid. I really don't care so long as people are talking and we get some different perspectives (and stay relatively on topic).

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However you balance and juggle it, the entire attribute system is a sham.
The only thing that it governs is your DPS, and so there's no real depth or strategy to it. It's not that it can help you make an interesting character with strengths and weaknesses.

If you go wizard there's no reason not to put everything in INT, ever. Even if you DO take combat skills you'll be shit with them as the game progresses.
If you go warrior there's no reason not to put everything in STR because even if you take magic skills or whatever you'll be shit with them as the game progresses.
etc


So it turns out that the game is only really fun at the first few levels where your character can still be very effective as an interesting multiclass

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They first need to offer a better system, before we can really discuss this topic laugh

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Originally Posted by Surrealialis
In D:OS a big mediator was the AP cost and CD for skills. So warfare skills require strength to reduce CDs and aP cost. Atleast CD modification could be included in the current game. And I feel that stat req's on items would also change the current feeling.


No. F*** cooldown modification.

There is no mana system in the game. The only thing which can limit how often you use skills are AP costs (which in D:OS 2 comes down to "this turn" or "next turn"), Source Points (which only apply to certain skills), and cooldowns.

In D:OS 2, cooldowns are basically the ONLY, the ONLY thing which limits how often you can use the majority of skills. Including attribute-based cooldown modification is taking a hammer to the delicate clockwork machine of balance.

Already designers have to account for the power of a skill based on the power of the governing stat, and based on the power of the associated ability stats, and based on the scaling power as levels change, and based on memory space and AP costs, and you want to throw in yet another factor which the designers have to consider, which is variable cooldown time?

For the ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY (160) skills in the game?

I was a strong advocate for uncoupling cooldowns from abilities in D:OS 1, and I'm glad that that was the case in D:OS 2. Tying them back together will wreck balance back to how it was in D:OS 1.

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Yeah, many skills need more cooldown for balancing, not less. laugh

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With the goals that the current attribute bonuses have in mind, the attributes should really be something you set at the start(S.P.E.C.I.A.L. in Fallout 1/2, or how D&D does it), and only scarcely improve throughout the game.

It's a perfectly viable approach with the new bonuses for skills, which affect all sources of their effects.

In fact, it would be a perfectly good approach to abandon the D:OS distinction between 'skill schools', and have things like "Recovery" instead of Hydrosophist or "Vampirism" instead of Necromancy, and then just give skills individual requirements based on what they actually do.

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Originally Posted by error3
Originally Posted by Fastel
This is why the melee fighter is over powered during the alpha in comparison to any other type of character you can make.


I disagree. Mainly because a melee fighter doesn't have range. You spend more points moving around, take more environment damage, and get targeted more easily by enemies. This means you need to spend more effort focusing on your defenses. Sure, they have competitive DPS potential, but in my experience marksmen and mages do too, and they have an easier time doing it safely.


This is what I mean by this try it out it is why the melee fighter beats out the ranged ones because they also do way more damage I have not been able to get any other class to deal nearly as much damage but then I haven't tried raging an archer either.

This melee setup negates the need for a ranged weapon 3 different skills to close range 2 for 1 ap and 1 for 2 ap which hits two targets and drops you into melee range.

2 handed fighter build that is OP using only strength stat you can kill almost everything in 1 hit you can build this without using elf race but you don't get as much ap or damage on turn 1

Race: Elf
Stats to increase at each level only increase strength
Combat Skills:
Two-Handed: 3 or 4 if you reach level 8
Warfare: 3-4
Huntsman: 1
Civil skills your choice
Talents: Warlord, Bigger and Better, All skilled up
Skills: Enraged, Battering Ram, Crippling Blow, Blitz Attack, Tactical Retreat

You kill almost everything in one hit every time you kill someone you gain back 2 ap. So you can keep on attacking think strategically and you own the battle field enemies may get one round in battles where your main character just can't get to them and kill them in the first turn by level 3 though it has only happened to me rarely.


Last edited by Fastel; 13/10/16 03:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Naqel
With the goals that the current attribute bonuses have in mind, the attributes should really be something you set at the start(S.P.E.C.I.A.L. in Fallout 1/2, or how D&D does it), and only scarcely improve throughout the game.

It's a perfectly viable approach with the new bonuses for skills, which affect all sources of their effects.

In fact, it would be a perfectly good approach to abandon the D:OS distinction between 'skill schools', and have things like "Recovery" instead of Hydrosophist or "Vampirism" instead of Necromancy, and then just give skills individual requirements based on what they actually do.


I agree its a better system which you are proposing and the game would be more balanced with it.

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Originally Posted by Fastel

This is what I mean by this try it out it is why the melee fighter beats out the ranged ones because they also do way more damage I have not been able to get any other class to deal nearly as much damage but then I haven't tried raging an archer either.


You are right. Strength 2-handed warrior with warfare skills is OP.
I had only tried the Finesse/Spear variant, and without the Str scaling the damage wasn't as high.
This surely needs a nerf, at least the strong synergy of Strength, 2-handed, and the warfare abilities.

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The crux of the matter is that firstly the attribute system is too oversimplified and has very little weight on character builds and performance in combat. Seriously, compare D:OS & D:OS2 with other cRPGs like Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Pillars of Eternity, these games have so much going on in their attribute system than D:OS. Look at Pillars of Eternity, the most recent successful cRPG, they had an intricate system with 4 saving throws(Deflection, Will, Reflex and Fortitude) tied to different attributes and the attacks target different saving throws even for a Mage(different spells target different saving throws), on top of Damage Reduction against various attack elements(Fire, Corrode, Pierce, Crush, Freeze etc) and finally Resistance against different types of Crowd Control or Status Effect(Petrified, Burn, Poison, Disease, Knockdown, Blinded, Stun etc). Every attribute governs a different section of defense serving as the first layer of defense with DR and Resistance being the second layer but seperated into specific elements, players have to think when allocating points as every attribute is important, its not the matter of dumping everything in 1 or 2 attribute and ignoring balance.

Secondly there are just too many Magic/Int skill trees and that these skill trees are too good, they have the best balance of damage, utility and crowd control so much so that diversity and hybridization in D:OS series means picking a magic skill tree. For a start they should implement a good spread of Strength and Finesse skill trees to add to the current 3 we have, it'll give players more options and incentive to go into Strength and Finesse attributes. Furthermore skill trees need to be heavily specialized and not be like the current magic skill trees where they are practically Master of all Trades. Magic skill trees have too good of synergy with each other than with the remaining 3. It'll encourage players to diversify their builds instead of taking magic skill trees cos they can do everything.

TL:DR, If Larian wants to fix these problems, they gonna have to do an overhaul of the attribute system followed by balancing magic skill trees as they are currently Master of all Trades and finally adding more Strength & Finesse skill trees.

Last edited by ImariKurumi; 13/10/16 05:52 AM.
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Funny logic here.

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More rolls is sadly something, some of us would really not want. They want a more chess like game. laugh

But me for my selve, I really don't like, that putting points in only one stat is all you need. I would like a more classical approach like:

Strength:
- ability to equip heavier armor and move with them
- increase physical damage (to use a bot needs in reality a lot strength)
- lift and move heavier stuff
- carry more stuff

Finesse:
- chance to hit with any weapon
- chance to dodge
- chance to block (shield/twohanded)
- chance to parry (duo wield)

Intelligence:
- better damage with all skills
- memorize more skills

Constitution:
- more HP
- more max AP (slightly, not as many as in DOS1)
- chance to resist
- movement speed

Wits:
- trap detection
- chance to crit
- initiative

Just some bare bone idea I came up with in a quarter hour or so, most likely improvable.

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In addition to this - just a spontaneous idea:

Why not implementing an exhaustion status (several levels) or stat that reduces strength, damage (possibly already included in strength penalty), finesse and maybe other, defensive stats - exhaustion speed depending on weapon type and armor type (or rather weight). So two handed warriors with heavy armor would quickly get exhausted and naturally be nerfed after a few actions, unless they invest in constitution (instead of boosting their damage with strength or increasing their chance to hit with finesse: make a decision). There could be talents that reduce the degree of exhaustion (second wind), special armor and weapon materials to make them lighter and skills that boost constitution or influence exhaustion directly (preventive or reactive).
Also skills might cause exhaustion (mentally or physically), depending on their power. So players would have to think of strategies, trying to get enemies down with heavy damage and risking too much exhaustion (less damage, less accuracy, even losing attribute requirements for their current equipment) or playing more defensive (less exhaustion) until armors are down and then using the more powerful attacks.

But maybe that tends to become a different game/system then...

Last edited by Abraxas*; 13/10/16 11:41 AM. Reason: Additions

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Originally Posted by ImariKurumi
The crux of the matter is that firstly the attribute system is too oversimplified and has very little weight on character builds and performance in combat. Seriously, compare D:OS & D:OS2 with other cRPGs like Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, Pillars of Eternity, these games have so much going on in their attribute system than D:OS. Look at Pillars of Eternity, the most recent successful cRPG, they had an intricate system with 4 saving throws(Deflection, Will, Reflex and Fortitude) tied to different attributes and the attacks target different saving throws even for a Mage(different spells target different saving throws), on top of Damage Reduction against various attack elements(Fire, Corrode, Pierce, Crush, Freeze etc) and finally Resistance against different types of Crowd Control or Status Effect(Petrified, Burn, Poison, Disease, Knockdown, Blinded, Stun etc). Every attribute governs a different section of defense serving as the first layer of defense with DR and Resistance being the second layer but seperated into specific elements, players have to think when allocating points as every attribute is important, its not the matter of dumping everything in 1 or 2 attribute and ignoring balance.


Sometimes, simplification is not an inherently bad thing. Also different games work in different ways and aping what works for apples to apply that to oranges is not going to work well

Pillars of Eternity has a 6-character limit on the party. D:OS has a 4 character limit. That means that it's harder to fill all the roles in D:OS, and it would be much harder to be able to hit 4 different saving throws.

D:OS also has Memory to worry about, limiting pretty harshly early on what skills you have available to use. I can't afford to spend a slot on a skill which only removes one status effect, for instance.

The more different stats you have, the more numbers you have to try to keep balanced, which means the more numbers that will appear on loot. The more numbers which appear on loot and the more numbers you have to keep balanced, the more difficult it is to choose between different pieces of equipment which have numbers in different areas.

That leads to players eyes glazing over and them mentally checking out of the decision making process. This happens to me all the time when I try to compare equipment in games like Torchlight or Dragon Fin Soup. They have too many numbers and there are too many stats and so I basically stop caring about most of the numbers and just going for what roughly has the highest basic numbers.


Quote
Secondly there are just too many Magic/Int skill trees and that these skill trees are too good, they have the best balance of damage, utility and crowd control so much so that diversity and hybridization in D:OS series means picking a magic skill tree. For a start they should implement a good spread of Strength and Finesse skill trees to add to the current 3 we have, it'll give players more options and incentive to go into Strength and Finesse attributes. Furthermore skill trees need to be heavily specialized and not be like the current magic skill trees where they are practically Master of all Trades. Magic skill trees have too good of synergy with each other than with the remaining 3. It'll encourage players to diversify their builds instead of taking magic skill trees cos they can do everything.

TL:DR, If Larian wants to fix these problems, they gonna have to do an overhaul of the attribute system followed by balancing magic skill trees as they are currently Master of all Trades and finally adding more Strength & Finesse skill trees.


I was one of the people asking for stretch goals for a 3rd skill tree. Unfortunately, judging by the Kickstarter, it seems Larian was entirely uninterested in adding a third skill tree then. I can't see them adding one now.

At best I think all we can hope for is to make Warfare hold 24-32 skills instead of only 16 like the other sets.


Originally Posted by Kalrakh
More rolls is sadly something, some of us would really not want. They want a more chess like game. laugh

But me for my selve, I really don't like, that putting points in only one stat is all you need. I would like a more classical approach like:


All attributes being useful for everyone would, as people have said, require a complete overhaul. It would either have to go to a Fallout-like - set at the start and be done - system, or else they'd have to give out far more attribute points per level than the two they do now. Two points a level is not enough to spread around in a system where all points have value.


Originally Posted by Abraxas*
In addition to this - just a spontaneous idea:

Why not implementing an exhaustion status (several levels) or stat that reduces strength, damage (possibly already included in strength penalty), finesse and maybe other, defensive stats - exhaustion speed depending on weapon type and armor type (or rather weight).

...

But maybe that tends to become a different game/system then...


Yeah, that does probably become a very, very different system.

Last edited by Stabbey; 13/10/16 01:34 PM. Reason: stuff
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Originally Posted by Kalrakh


Intelligence:
- better damage with all skills
- memorize more skills


You can't be serious.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Sometimes, simplification is not an inherently bad thing. Also different games work in different ways and aping what works for apples to apply that to oranges is not going to work well

Pillars of Eternity has a 6-character limit on the party. D:OS has a 4 character limit. That means that it's harder to fill all the roles in D:OS, and it would be much harder to be able to hit 4 different saving throws.

D:OS also has Memory to worry about, limiting pretty harshly early on what skills you have available to use. I can't afford to spend a slot on a skill which only removes one status effect, for instance.

The more different stats you have, the more numbers you have to try to keep balanced, which means the more numbers that will appear on loot. The more numbers which appear on loot and the more numbers you have to keep balanced, the more difficult it is to choose between different pieces of equipment which have numbers in different areas.

That leads to players eyes glazing over and them mentally checking out of the decision making process. This happens to me all the time when I try to compare equipment in games like Torchlight or Dragon Fin Soup. They have too many numbers and there are too many stats and so I basically stop caring about most of the numbers and just going for what roughly has the highest basic numbers.


True that, it worked well with Dragon Age Inquisition where it basically moved away from stats and instead focus on talent/skill trees. However it depends on the genre, DAI was aiming for action cum brawler oriented RPG(not to be confused with stats & loot driven ARPGs like Diablo, Grim Dawn etc) so limited mechanics worked well for it.

Divinity Original Sin series however is gunning for cRPG with Turn Based combat. Such a genre where mechanics and tactics both play a huge roll in turn based combat. Just like what we have with games like Age of Decadence, Wasteland series, Blackguards etc. If you oversimplify the mechanics part, theres honestly nothing much to the game then. It is perfectly fine if the devs take down a notch with the mechanics, i'm open to it, but D:OS2 overdid it. You gotta admit the attribute system in D:OS2 currently is as simple as it gets so much so that it is comparable to the system we see in MMORPGs, which as we all know is direct, narrow and shallow. Pretty much a no brainer. You don't even have to bat an eyelid when distributing your points.

That being said, i do agree it is too late for an overhaul. But it is still plausible for a few tweaks and additions to be made for each attribute.

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Wait, you can't achieve depth with skills/talent alone (reasonably alone at any rate), really?

The fuck kind of garbage arguments are these?

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Sometimes, simplification is not an inherently bad thing. Also different games work in different ways and aping what works for apples to apply that to oranges is not going to work well

Pillars of Eternity has a 6-character limit on the party. D:OS has a 4 character limit. That means that it's harder to fill all the roles in D:OS, and it would be much harder to be able to hit 4 different saving throws.

D:OS also has Memory to worry about, limiting pretty harshly early on what skills you have available to use. I can't afford to spend a slot on a skill which only removes one status effect, for instance.

The more different stats you have, the more numbers you have to try to keep balanced, which means the more numbers that will appear on loot. The more numbers which appear on loot and the more numbers you have to keep balanced, the more difficult it is to choose between different pieces of equipment which have numbers in different areas.

That leads to players eyes glazing over and them mentally checking out of the decision making process. This happens to me all the time when I try to compare equipment in games like Torchlight or Dragon Fin Soup. They have too many numbers and there are too many stats and so I basically stop caring about most of the numbers and just going for what roughly has the highest basic numbers.


That's just lazy on your part and most people that play RPG's a lot don't do that no offense but torchlight is by far one of the easiest stat based rpgs in creation. In case you haven't noticed the more complicated and RPG is in terms of character creation the more people tend to play it. Most people thought Planescape torment was terrible when it was released because they didn't understand it. Now it is considered one of the greatest video games ever created.

Originally Posted by ImariKurumi
That being said, i do agree it is too late for an overhaul. But it is still plausible for a few tweaks and additions to be made for each attribute.


It is never to late for an overhaul we are in alpha if the devs really are reading the forums and taking these discussions to heart then they should see how off balanced the current system is and fix it before release. They don't have to even do a complete overhaul they just need to modify the existing system so that it is better. If you have played a lot of PnP games you can see how to use the existing system to create something that works great there have been some really good suggestions in this thread alone.

While most of the suggestions don't make it any more complicated to distribute stat points and skill points they do nerf the OP builds making the game at least have a little challenge which it is currently lacking.

If I am level 3 I shouldn't be able to fight 20 level 4 NPCs and win by myself with the current system I could which is ridiculous and that is all down to the way they laid out the stats and skill abilities.

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It's important to remember that these discussion are why there is an Alpha to begin with. Agree or disagree with the posited arguments, these discussions give everyone (including the developers) a chance to think about the topic at hand and see multiple view points.

All of us are here because we want this game to be great. We may have differing opinions on exactly how to make that happen but that's why we're here talking about it. Let's try not to dig our heels in too deep.

Personally, I'm on the side of the discussion that the attributes could use a little more "identity." Each attribute should offer something to a build (no matter the build) so that choosing which attribute(s) to increase becomes an important decision.

We can't compare it to D&D honestly because D&D accomplishes this by having a "skill" system with the skills being modified by the attribute (such as climb and swim being affected by strength while balance is dexterity), which this game does not have.

Instead, I would suggest finding a way to have each attribute contribute something to a build, something like:

Strength:
- Increases damage and accuracy with strength-based weaponry
- Reduces movement penalty for medium and heavy armors, allows the use of heavier armor
- Increases carrying capacity (weight)
- Reduces the AP cost for climbing during combat (contributes to the new height system)
- Affects Warfare skills

Finesse:
- Increases damage and accuracy with finesse-based weaponry
- Increases dodge chance
- Increases movement speed (move further per AP point)
- Affects accuracy and damage when dual-wielding (penalties for low Finesse while dual-wielding)
- Affects Scoundrel and Marksman skills

Intelligence:
- Increases damage and accuracy with intelligence-based weaponry
- Increases duration of status effects and control
- Provides bonus to Magic Armor (instead of Wits)
- Affects all magical school skills

Constitution:
- Modifies total Vitality
- Reduces duration of physical status effects and control on character
- Increases healing received

Memory:
- Modifies total number of abilities a character can have memorized and the power of skills that can be learned

Wits:
- Affects initiative, critical chance and detection (traps, hidden objects, stealthed enemies)
- Reduces duration of magical status effects and control on character


Now, I'm not suggesting these are the best ideas nor am I stating that they should be done exactly like this but...the idea is to make every attribute contribute in some way to any build or character so a player can choose to strengthen their character in a variety of ways based on the attribute(s) they choose to increase.

Strength based characters can still benefit from intelligence because it modifies magical armor (thus increasing their immunity to magical control) and it will affect the duration of their own control abilities (like knockdown).

Intelligence based characters can benefit from Wits because if their magical armor is depleted, it will reduce the duration of silence and other effects on them, Constitution to enjoy this same resistance to physical effects, etc.

Just a thought.

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